7-Up Pai Gow Poker

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 5:48:19 AM permalink

Quote: ams288
I would play this in a heartbeat.

I'm itching to go back and play.

I'm kicking myself for leaving a small winner. (Got even here after losing at the regular Pai Gow table.) But I wanted to find out more first.

I mean there's always the chance you run terrible while dealer is on fire, catching 2 large pairs vs your 1 pair every time. But that's what bankrolls are for. How is this not a positive expectation game for the player??

ThatDonGuy

ThatDonGuy

Threads: 122
Posts: 6679

Joined: Jun 22, 2011

September 23rd, 2016 at 8:10:17 AM permalink

Quote: y2d2
What's the math on this?

That depends on a couple of things.

First, what, exactly, is an "Ace-high Pai Gow"?

Second, what is the house way at Thunder Valley? (I know what "house way" means, but what rules do they use? Best legal 2-card hand?)

Deucekies

Deucekies

Threads: 58
Posts: 1484

Joined: Jan 20, 2014

September 23rd, 2016 at 9:16:14 AM permalink

Quote: ThatDonGuy
First, what, exactly, is an "Ace-high Pai Gow"?

A pai-gow is any hand that does not contain a pair or better. No straights, no flushes, nothing.

Quote:
Second, what is the house way at Thunder Valley? (I know what "house way" means, but what rules do they use? Best legal 2-card hand?)

I imagine the strength of the houseway would be greatly diminished if the player gets to see the dealer's hand set before playing.

Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 9:19:27 AM permalink

Quote: ThatDonGuy
That depends on a couple of things.

First, what, exactly, is an "Ace-high Pai Gow"?

Second, what is the house way at Thunder Valley? (I know what "house way" means, but what rules do they use? Best legal 2-card hand?)

An ace-high hand where no pair or straight/flush is possible. For instance 3468QKA. It would typically be played as A3468/KQ

I only played a couple dozen hands so I'm not sure what the exact rules are, but it seemed the same as a standard Pai Gow house way, not that it matters too much as you have all the card information. I suppose whether they go two pair behind or split with certain high side cards can affect the frequency of wins and causes more pushes potentially?

I would assume they do not break up straight / flush unless 2 pairs are present etc.

Deucekies

Deucekies

Threads: 58
Posts: 1484

Joined: Jan 20, 2014

September 23rd, 2016 at 9:22:21 AM permalink

I'm guessing that if the player gets to see the dealer's made hand before setting his own, a savvy houseway would defend the two-card hand as much as possible.

Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 9:27:17 AM permalink

Quote: Deucekies
I'm guessing that if the player gets to see the dealer's made hand before setting his own, a savvy houseway would defend the two-card hand as much as possible.

Even if so... the dealer sets the hand face-up for all to see, and the setting can't be changed. The player sets their hand only after the dealer exposes and sets his.

How is this profitable for the house?

Particularly for the nom-convential kicker plays that would normally result in push or loss turning into a win or push?

Deucekies

Deucekies

Threads: 58
Posts: 1484

Joined: Jan 20, 2014

September 23rd, 2016 at 9:31:44 AM permalink

Quote: y2d2
Even if so... the dealer sets the hand face-up for all to see, and the setting can't be changed. The player sets their hand only after the dealer exposes and sets his.

How is this profitable for the house?

Particularly for the nom-convential kicker plays that would normally result in push or loss turning into a win or push?

The house advantage comes from ties being won by the house, and it looks like that rule hasn't changed. Being able to see the dealer's hand won't help you if you have no way to play your cards that won't lose, which is still going to happen enough times since ties go to the house. And remember winning against an Ace-high pai gow is no good for you.

An aggressive approach to the two-card hand will make it impossible for you to set your hand to win more often than otherwise. Of course, as you mentioned, you'll be able to set your hand in a kooky way for a push, but as long as you haven't won the hand, the houseway did its job.

Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm

gordonm888
Administrator

Threads: 61
Posts: 5359

Joined: Feb 18, 2015

September 23rd, 2016 at 1:13:05 PM permalink

The dealer (or player) will be dealt a 7-card Ace-High Pai-Gow with a frequency of 9.4%. Here is what I calculate for a range of ace-high pai-gow hands with a composition-dependent model that I have.

Hand	Win	Push	Lose	EV
A-KQ-J743	0.1446	0.3753	0.4811	-0.340
A-KT-9732	0.1206	0.3177	0.5614	-0.447
A-QJ-T732	0.0911	0.2621	0.6486	-0.562
A-JT-9732	0.0426	0.2053	0.7527	-0.712
A-87-6432	0.000	0.1116	0.8887	-0.889

With an AKQxxxx hand, you are able to put a KQ in front, but your EV is still -0.34. When your Ace-high pai-gow is AQJTxxx, your hand up front drops to a QJ and your EV plummets to about -0.56. And if your 2nd card is a Jack or lower, then God help you.

So, allowing the dealer's hand to automatically push when its an ace-high pai-gow is worth something like 5 - 5.5% in EV. That's an enormous advantage for the dealer that the player needs to overcome by being able to see the dealer's hand and setting his hand optimally.

Last edited by: gordonm888 on Sep 23, 2016

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

Paigowdan

Threads: 115
Posts: 5692

Joined: Apr 28, 2010

September 23rd, 2016 at 3:10:22 PM permalink

Just a note on this: the use of a dealer's pai gow hand (any Pai Gow Hand) to push for a house edge mechanism is owed by Lubin-Jones LLC, on games distributed by Shuffle Master, even if mixed with additional game gimmicks or mechanisms. No biggie, but they should have checked/vetted the concept first.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Wizardofnothing

Wizardofnothing

Threads: 121
Posts: 3493

Joined: Jul 3, 2015

September 23rd, 2016 at 3:30:22 PM permalink

I'd fly out for this

No longer hiring, don�t ask because I won�t hire you either

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 5:50:56 PM permalink

Quote: Wizardofnothing
I'd fly out for this

I guess I'm the other sucker who feels the same.

What % of times will you be able to change the outcome from push to win, or lose to push? Seems like it's higher than expected

Paigowdan

Threads: 115
Posts: 5692

Joined: Apr 28, 2010

September 23rd, 2016 at 6:04:16 PM permalink

It's a lot; many two pair hands such as Kx/5522x can be played for a win or a saving push, In fact just about any hand two pairs or better can be helped. 67% of the hands are one pair or less, which can only be played one way, but over 33% of the hands are multi-path hands with two or more reasonable settings that are help by seeing the dealer's set..

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 6:11:18 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
It's a lot; many two pair hands such as Kx/5522x can be played for a win or a saving push, In fact just about any hand two pairs or better can be helped. 67% of the hands are one pair or less, which can only be played one way, but over 33% of the hands are multi-path hands with two or more reasonable settings that are help by seeing the dealer's set..

I'm curious whether the dealer is allowed to assist the player in setting the hand in the optimal way based on dealer's set hand. Or if they play "blind house way" for the player. Because you KNOW there will still be 100% clueless players who don't know how to set their hand even in light of dealer card information.

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 6:15:21 PM permalink

I'm planning on going back tonight, let me know if any of you guys are close and want to check it out.

Funny thing is I found this table by accident. I've walked by it before, but easily skipped it and wrote it off as some new silly side bet variant of pai gow. I sat down after running bad at a regular PGP table, placed a bet, and saw the dealer flip over his cards before I even had a chance to look at mine. I flipped out, "I haven't even looked at my hand yet! WTF?!"

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 6:25:57 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
67% of the hands are one pair or less, which can only be played one way

Unconventional kicker plays should be noted. It's not very frequent, but does come up occasionally.

For instance

AJ/55789 vs dealer's AK/5567J

And of course sometimes splitting one-pair Queens, Kings, and Aces (and rarely tens and jacks) for a saving push or win

Would it be safe to say that at least 5% of the time, the outcomes will be changed from standard blind play? Since a lot of the 33% of 2pair+ hands play themselves anyways. And adding some for 1 pair or less hands that can still be saved.

Last edited by: y2d2 on Sep 23, 2016

andysif

andysif

Threads: 23
Posts: 433

Joined: Aug 8, 2011

September 23rd, 2016 at 6:58:35 PM permalink

Just for your information, in the 80's Macao had a similar game that's played with 13 cards (3-5-5)

Normally the game pays 1 to 1, Bank wins ties, no commission (I think. too young, don't know)

One day someone came up with an idea: The bank will set and show its hands first. The catch is: if the player wins, it pays only 1/2.

Many people fall for that, and the bank makes a killing. eventually nobody is foolish enough to play it anymore. but maybe that gives and idea how much of an advantage people perceived of that rule.

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 7:28:47 PM permalink

Well this pays 95%, not 50%

Paradigm

Threads: 42
Posts: 2226

Joined: Feb 24, 2011

September 23rd, 2016 at 8:00:15 PM permalink

Game website says 1.60% HE. 7 Up Pai Gow

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 23rd, 2016 at 8:04:20 PM permalink

Quote: Paradigm
Game website says 1.60% HE. m

Nearly a full percent better than standard PGP right?

miplet

miplet

Threads: 5
Posts: 2142

Joined: Dec 1, 2009

September 23rd, 2016 at 8:20:56 PM permalink

Quote: Paradigm
Game website says 1.60% HE. 7 Up Pai Gow

That's with no commission, so it's higher if they are charging a 5% winning commission.

�Man Babes� #AxelFabulous

Joeshlabotnik

Joeshlabotnik

Threads: 20
Posts: 943

Joined: Jul 27, 2016

September 23rd, 2016 at 8:25:48 PM permalink

Let's cut to the chase. Consider the likelihood of the following statements all being true:

1. A casino game exists that has an inherent house edge for the player.
2. The player can realize that house edge with only basic knowledge of the game, and no advanced strategy.
3. The casino, nonetheless, offers that game to the public.

Contrast that with the likelihood of the following statement being true:

1. The person who sent you that email actually is a desperate Nigerian prince who badly needs your assistance in recovering his $5 million fortune, and has identified you as the only one who can help him.

This statement is more likely to be true than the three statements above all being true.

I think you're overestimating the benefit to the player of being able to see the dealer's hand. You're also underestimating the effect of the A-high dealer pai gow push. That hand happens a LOT. Just to contrast, there's a variant where all dealer Q-high pai gows are pushes, and that's enough addition to the house edge that the house no longer needs to charge a 5% commission.

This reminds me very much of face-up 21, which seemed like a "how can I lose?" game to a lot of players when it first came up, or some of those other BJ variants where a dealer 22 is a push. Change one category of dealer losses to ties, and that balances out even a very substantial player advantage.

Paradigm

Threads: 42
Posts: 2226

Joined: Feb 24, 2011

September 23rd, 2016 at 9:45:56 PM permalink

Quote: miplet
Quote: Paradigm
Game website says 1.60% HE. 7 Up Pai Gow
That's with no commission, so it's higher if they are charging a 5% winning commission.

Agree Mips...the game website says No Commission, but I see the OP says Thunder Valley is charging a commission.

gordonm888
Administrator

Threads: 61
Posts: 5359

Joined: Feb 18, 2015

September 23rd, 2016 at 10:36:03 PM permalink

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

I think you're overestimating the benefit to the player of being able to see the dealer's hand. You're also underestimating the effect of the A-high dealer pai gow push. That hand happens a LOT. Just to contrast, there's a variant where all dealer Q-high pai gows are pushes, and that's enough addition to the house edge that the house no longer needs to charge a 5% commission.

Um . . if you scroll up to the first page of this thread you will see that I posted that an Ace-high pai gow has a frequency of 9.4% and estimated that an automatic push on a dealer A-high pai gow adds about 5% to the house edge - based on mathematics.

And, one of the other posters on this thread is the designer of the face-up version of Pai-Gow that you refer to - it's called EZ Pai-Gow where all Q-High pai gows are a push.

So, we're not the know-nothing idiots you take us for.

You are probably right, though, that some posters are overestimating the benefit to the player of being able to see the dealer's hand.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

Threads: 123
Posts: 11466

Joined: Aug 8, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 5:13:56 AM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
It's a lot; many two pair hands such as Kx/5522x can be played for a win or a saving push, In fact just about any hand two pairs or better can be helped. 67% of the hands are one pair or less, which can only be played one way, but over 33% of the hands are multi-path hands with two or more reasonable settings that are help by seeing the dealer's set..

Incorrect. "that are help" needs to be changed to "may be helped". Well more than 50% of the time you will not change your hand from the basic strategy, that's why it's the basic strategy! I would surmise that the lack of beating the ace high pai gows costs more EV than the number of times you would change a hand from basic strategy would add EV. It is possible a casino would have allowed this game on the floor without someone doing the math to back it up, but I doubt it?
Every time I have an 'iffy' hand, and am not sure what to do, I make a note of it. The great majority of the time I end up saying... "As usual it didn't matter". But this is a (very complex) math problem. I'm hoping one of our gurus (Wizard, Crystal Math, MathExtremist, Mustang Sally) can solve this problem.

Edit- I see the link to the website shows a house edge of 1.4%, so someone did the math. Weather they did it correctly.....

mrsuit31

mrsuit31

Threads: 82
Posts: 1325

Joined: May 29, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 5:29:42 AM permalink

Quote: gordonm888
And, one of the other posters on this thread is the designer of the face-up version of Pai-Gow that you refer to - it's called EZ Pai-Gow where all Q-High pai gows are a push.

Just to clarify, EZ Pai Gow isn't face up. Dan stated that his company owns the mechanism where any dealer pai gow hand results in a push for the hand...

Quote: Paigowdan
Just a note on this: the use of a dealer's pai gow hand (any Pai Gow Hand) to push for a house edge mechanism is owed by Lubin-Jones LLC, on games distributed by Shuffle Master, even if mixed with additional game gimmicks or mechanisms. No biggie, but they should have checked/vetted the concept first.

.

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 24th, 2016 at 5:37:50 AM permalink

So I went back and got stuck $4500 pretty quick. Spent the next 6-7 hours booking a $141 win

Ran into less than 10 dealer ace-high's. Would have normally lost 2 of those. I didn't keep count of bow many I would have normally won, but pretty sure more than 2.

I'd play it again, over any other PGP variation. Seats were hard to come by, during prime time.

Last edited by: y2d2 on Sep 24, 2016

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 24th, 2016 at 7:03:27 AM permalink

Was just told Thunder Valley is the only casino anywhere that has this game. On month #2 or 3 of a 3-month trial for ShuffleMaster.

Wizardofnothing

Wizardofnothing

Threads: 121
Posts: 3493

Joined: Jul 3, 2015

September 24th, 2016 at 7:15:41 AM permalink

Imagine how awesome this would be if it were tiles

No longer hiring, don�t ask because I won�t hire you either

gordonm888
Administrator

Threads: 61
Posts: 5359

Joined: Feb 18, 2015

September 24th, 2016 at 10:27:00 AM permalink

The principle advantages of seeing the dealer's cards should be in two categories of player hands:

- 2-pair hands, for obvious reasons
- high one-pair hands, for less obvious reasons. Particularly AA/A-Jok with 5 singletons, which I estimate to have an average EV improvement of 0.13.

When you have an AA hand such as AA-xxxxx, the front hand, by definition, cannot have an ace and thus is weaker than usual. The AAxxx back hand will win some 70% of the time, but the dividing line between positive EV and negative EV for a one-pair AA hand is actually AA - QJ743. Weaker kickers than QJ743 result in a negative EV and stronger kickers result in a positive EV.

In face-up pai gow, when player sees that the dealer's back hand is better than AA, the player should split the Aces like this: AJ/AQ743 and have a front hand, AJ, that can beat a lot more hands than QJ. The improvement in EV for this specific hand will be about +0.12.

But there is another angle. When you have a One Pair A-A hand (or A-Joker) how often will the dealer show up with an AA-xxx in the backhand ?

- when you hold AA-xxxxx, dealer will play AA-xxx or A-Jok-xxx in the backhand 4.0% of the time
- when you hold AJok-xxxxx, dealer will play AA-xxx in the backhand 4.7% of the time.

Whenever these situations occur, you can improve the strength of your hand by splitting your aces, as mentioned earlier. But when dealer has another pair in the front hand or two unbeatable singletons, you can strengthen your backhand by playing your two weakest kickers in the front.

Example: Dealer: KQ/ AA-T93

If you have A-Jok- J7642 you would normally lose this hand, but can push by playing it as 42/A-Jok-J76.

I think this tactic will add another 0.011 in EV to an AA-xxxxx hand. So overall, I would expect that a face-up dealers hand will improve the average EV of a One Pair AA hand by about 0.12 + 0.01=0.13.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

Paradigm

Threads: 42
Posts: 2226

Joined: Feb 24, 2011

September 24th, 2016 at 11:12:45 AM permalink

I think the key fact to consider here is not so much the exact HE behind the game change (assuming the HE is relatively close to normal PGP), but the appeal of the game change to the average PGP player. I think that perceived value in seeing the dealer's hand first will be a real novelty at first and should draw some nice action early on.

The question will be if there is long term perceived value in this game benefit. I think that will come down to how often the dealer hand information is useful to a player and changes a loss hand under normal hand setting strategy to a push or a winning hand due to the knowledge of the dealer's hand. Compare that with the frequency of not winning in on a dealer Ace High Pai Gow hand.

Ultimately if the house edge is reasonable compared to regular PGP (I don't like the commission piece of this game at Thunder Valley on top of the Ace High Pai Gow mechanism) and the players feel like they are getting real benefit in changing their strategy as a result of seeing the dealer's hand, this game would look very promising.

So for the math experts, here is the question: What is the frequency of changing the setting of your hand and pushing or winning as a result of the change? What is the frequency of an Ace High Pai Gow for the dealer that results in a push vs. a win? Therein lies the keys to player's perceived value of seeing the dealer's hand and will drive the long term success of this PGP variant...it looks very interesting.

Paigowdan

Threads: 115
Posts: 5692

Joined: Apr 28, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 11:56:19 AM permalink

I think this is a fine version of double exposure PGP.
The use of the new feature ability or Humdinger should be 1 in 10 hands or so, or typically seen and used enough during an average session, and I believe this qualifies. To get the true number, a sim may be required. A sharp PGP notices how often that an alternate hand setting would have saved the hand or had won it, and yeah it seems to be often enough. Freebet BJ is hot because the feature is frequently enough seen and used. What answers this question is whether the game gets action and positive reviews by real players.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

SM777

SM777

Threads: 6
Posts: 762

Joined: Apr 8, 2016

September 24th, 2016 at 12:02:10 PM permalink

Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?

The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.

Paradigm

Threads: 42
Posts: 2226

Joined: Feb 24, 2011

September 24th, 2016 at 12:05:40 PM permalink

Agree on Free Bet as frequency of getting a Free Bet Lammer is right around 17% (one in six hands), that is a good frequency that players will notice.

Not sure 10% frequency (if that is correct %) of the feature mattering in the game is sufficient, IMHO, but as you said, player action will rule the day.

EZ PGP is hot because not paying that commission, while small in comparison to saving a bet, comes up a lot!!! Vs. the frequency of a Queen High Dealer Pai Gow is what, once in 43 hands?

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 24th, 2016 at 12:20:42 PM permalink

Quote: SM777
Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?

The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.

I tend to disagree.

It is also much more enjoyable to me personally as there are no surprises/upsets/kicking myself. Like being dealt 88/KK and losing to 3-pair. Or pushing JJ/QQ vs xx/KK

Given the choice , I'd never play regular PGP over 7PGP.

gordonm888
Administrator

Threads: 61
Posts: 5359

Joined: Feb 18, 2015

September 24th, 2016 at 12:24:42 PM permalink

Quote: Paradigm
I think the key fact to consider here is not so much the exact HE behind the game change (assuming the HE is relatively close to normal PGP), but the appeal of the game change to the average PGP player. I think that perceived value in seeing the dealer's hand first will be a real novelty at first and should draw some nice action early on.

The question will be if there is long term perceived value in this game benefit. I think that will come down to how often the dealer hand information is useful to a player and changes a loss hand under normal hand setting strategy to a push or a winning hand due to the knowledge of the dealer's hand. Compare that with the frequency of not winning in on a dealer Ace High Pai Gow hand.

Ultimately if the house edge is reasonable compared to regular PGP (I don't like the commission piece of this game at Thunder Valley on top of the Ace High Pai Gow mechanism) and the players feel like they are getting real benefit in changing their strategy as a result of seeing the dealer's hand, this game would look very promising.

So for the math experts, here is the question: What is the frequency of changing the setting of your hand and pushing or winning as a result of the change? What is the frequency of an Ace High Pai Gow for the dealer that results in a push vs. a win? Therein lies the keys to player's perceived value of seeing the dealer's hand and will drive the long term success of this PGP variant...it looks very interesting.

I agree with your main points. Pai gow poker's popularity arises from these factors:
-it has a slower pace that allows for more socializing
- it requires decisions by the player and occasionally these decisions may be reasonably close calls
-its sidebets provide a potential "jackpot element" to the game
-and it is regarded by its loyal players as a "reasonable" casino game because its HE, loss per hour and volatility are reasonably small.

The rule changes in this variant must either add fun or make the player feel as if they are winning more often or losing more slowly.

But don't hold your breath waiting for "math guys" to provide the answers to your questions. Ignoring suit distributions when a hand does not have a flush, there are still over 230,000 distinct 7-card hands in PGP, and thus the number of "player vs. dealer combinations" exceeds 50 billion. Obviously there is a math report on this game so someone has made some kind of estimate of the HE - but I am betting it was a large effort and involved approximations. High-quality approximations using mathematical short-cuts would be challenging because the diversity of hands in PGP is quite high and the questions to be answered in this game analysis would often require evaluations of the kickers in the two hands.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 24th, 2016 at 1:46:29 PM permalink

My general experience with casinos seems to be that Indian casinos are stingier than average, with worse odds, comps, promos, etc than "normal" casinos. So it comes as no surprise to see that they tacked on a commission, and/or just about anything they think they can get away with.

Goes all the way to drink orders: you have to pay for your drink at the time of order, because they dint trust you to not go broke between the time yiu order it and the time it arrives. Absolutely hilarious.

I would expect a commission-free game to be at a Horseshoe establishment or similar.

SOOPOO

SOOPOO

Threads: 123
Posts: 11466

Joined: Aug 8, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 1:50:48 PM permalink

Everyone must realize that after the novelty wears off, the rule change makes this a NO DECISION game. If you are not able to set your hand properly after the dealer exposes his, then you do not belong in a casino. I know I would try it, and likely tire of it quickly.

y2d2

Threads: 2
Posts: 45

Joined: Jul 10, 2012

September 24th, 2016 at 2:03:07 PM permalink

During tonight's 6+ hour session, it felt like I was getting more help from dealer card info than ace-high non-wins. Many 2pair hands that I would NEVER play unconventionally, but got saved from. Even one-pair was helped multiple times, namely splitting aces once (for a win) and a pair of queens (for a push). Seemed a lot more frequent than dealer ace high on my small sample size.

I've played Pai Gow for around 15 years, and each day I've played, feels like having dealer's card information would have noticeably impacted the day's results.

Paigowdan

Threads: 115
Posts: 5692

Joined: Apr 28, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 2:13:47 PM permalink

Quote: SM777
Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?

The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.

Obtaining a saving push, or better yet a win over a push because the dealer's hand exposure lets you reset your hand does mean something, and is not that minimal.
However, I agree somewhat with SM777, and that the jury is out: what's taken away here is a surprise final win, and not knowing until the end of the round when the dealer normally shows his hand. Final round Game play anticipation is sacrificed here, true, but is greater at the game's front end. Here, you might know early on that your hand has no chance, no matter how well set (a bummer), - or that the dealer's exposure actually does give you a sharp-witted out to use early on.

Other Pai Gow Games (like Pai Gow Peek of the old Gaming Network Group) tried it with partial, half-measure Dealer exposure. This game offers full frontal nudity of the dealer's hand first, giving you the potential of "full carnival knowledge" for a save or win opportunity.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

mrsuit31

mrsuit31

Threads: 82
Posts: 1325

Joined: May 29, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 2:47:02 PM permalink

Quote: SOOPOO
Everyone must realize that after the novelty wears off, the rule change makes this a NO DECISION game. If you are not able to set your hand properly after the dealer exposes his, then you do not belong in a casino. I know I would try it, and likely tire of it quickly.

I was thinking the NO DECISION issue as well. Additionally like Dan and sm777 said, there is absolutly no surprised ending anymore. It's essentially a paytable game with no dealer (of course with one), except this one only pays 1-1 now.

.

beachbumbabs

beachbumbabs

Threads: 101
Posts: 14268

Joined: May 21, 2013

September 24th, 2016 at 7:21:43 PM permalink

Quote: SM777
Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?

The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.

You probably have access to the numbers, but my perception of how often I would benefit ,as a person who plays regularly, is about every 6 or so hands on average. That has me drooling. I have to agree with Paradigm, though, that the double hit (A high push + 5%) is too much to pay. A high, because of the joker, occurs even more frequently than q high, which offsets the 5% already. I don't think the exposure is enough of a trade-off ev-wise. But I'd still play it.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

Paigowdan

Threads: 115
Posts: 5692

Joined: Apr 28, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 7:54:57 PM permalink

Quote: SM777

Why do people think seeing the dealer's hand in Pai Gow is such an advantage?
The occurrences in which you would set your a hand a different way then you would without having seen the dealers hand, and win is so minimal.

and

Quote: beachbumbabs
You probably have access to the numbers, but my perception of how often I would benefit ,as a person who plays regularly, is about every 6 or so hands on average. That has me drooling. I have to agree with Paradigm, though, that the double hit (A high push + 5%) is too much to pay. A high, because of the joker, occurs even more frequently than q high, which offsets the 5% already. I don't think the exposure is enough of a trade-off ev-wise. But I'd still play it.

I would say that if this game is installed by the Thunder Valley Casino in Lincoln, CA, and is signed by the Shuffle Master Division of Scientific Games, then this game is well-vetted by fine experts in the gaming industry, and has got quite a shot at success. I would think that both Thunder Valley Casino, and the table games experts at SG see something worthy in this game, and that their business decisions are based on true merit and potential.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

gordonm888
Administrator

Threads: 61
Posts: 5359

Joined: Feb 18, 2015

September 24th, 2016 at 9:26:10 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
and

I would say that if this game is installed by the Thunder Valley Casino in Lincoln, CA, and is signed by the Shuffle Master Division of Scientific Games, then this game is well-vetted by fine experts in the gaming industry, and has got quite a shot at success. I would think that both Thunder Valley Casino, and the table games experts at SG see something worthy in this game, and that their business decisions are based on true merit and potential.

Oh, how ridiculous. The track record is that the large majority of new games that are tried out like this are flops. People in any business who don't listen to their customers' comments are fools. Babs' comments about this game were reasonable. You should be listening, Dan, rather than taking the asinine position that the game must have "true merit" because the infallible demi-gods at Shufflemaster and Thunder Valley have given it a trial placement.

Maybe you should call yourself "TrueMeritDan" from now on. Bwaa-haaa-haa. ROFL at your post..

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

Paigowdan

Threads: 115
Posts: 5692

Joined: Apr 28, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 9:49:05 PM permalink

Quote: gordonm888
Oh, how ridiculous. The track record is that the large majority of new games that are tried out like this are flops.

Excuse me, Gordon, but exactly how many of your games made it to the casino floor in the first place, where they had a chance?
I think zero. For a game to have a good shot, you have to accomplish at least as what this game designer had done. Good for him, really.

And if anyone would know a worthy game it would be the executives of casino operators and the manufacturers.
How many games of yours got signed up and placed on the casino floor by these same casino executives and distributors?
Zero, it seems to me.

Quote: g888
People in any business who don't listen to their customers' comments are fools. Babs' comments about this game were reasonable.

I never said a bad thing about Babs, so excuse me for simply pointing out what this designer DID accomplish with his install.
I think for ANY game to have a shot from Jump Street - in other words, a rats chance in hell to make it for real - is to a) get a real casino to install it, and b) for a major distributor to sign it up and support it, and c) for the game to get serious action from gamblers in this live game casino environment.
And all this was accomplished by this Mr. Johnny Le to a "t." And also by Babs.

You should salute him, instead of question or complain about his success up through this point.

This is a very major accomplishment for ANY game designer.
For a zero-install wannabe like yourself in this department, you've got to give this game designer credit, instead of resentment, or perhaps jealousy.

Quote: g888
Maybe you should call yourself "TrueMeritDan" from now on. Bwaa-haaa-haa. ROFL at your post..

With that one, my suspicions are that you are drinking this evening. ROFV.

Last edited by: Paigowdan on Sep 24, 2016

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

gordonm888
Administrator

Threads: 61
Posts: 5359

Joined: Feb 18, 2015

September 24th, 2016 at 10:18:29 PM permalink

Quote: Paigowdan
Excuse me, Gordon, but exactly how many of your games made it to the casino floor in the first place, where they had a chance?
I think zero.

This is a very major accomplishment for ANY game designer.
For a zero-install wannabe like yourself in this department, you've got to give this game designer credit, instead of resentment, or perhaps jealousy.

With that one, my suspicions are that you are drinking this evening.

I have never had any interest in designing casino games, because I have always been handsomely paid to apply my intelligence to intellectually-fascinating work that matters to science, society and our country.

In my opinion, "designing casino games" is like "being sodomized" - it is risky, has a very low return-on-investment, is likely to involve unpleasantness in the process of doing it, and is something that I have been intelligent enough to avoid. And neither one should be done at the dinner table.

And I did not impugn your ability to evaluate a potential new casino game -just your bwaa-haa-haa statement that a game must have "true merit" because it has been given a field trial, when the track record is so contrary to that assertion.

So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.

Ibeatyouraces

Ibeatyouraces

Threads: 68
Posts: 11933

Joined: Jan 12, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 10:33:32 PM permalink

Quote: gordonm888
...just your bwaa-haa-haa statement that a game must have "true merit" because it has been given a field trial, when the track record is so contrary to that assertion.

Agree. I've seen numerous SHFL games come and disappear faster than a fart in the wind.

DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

Paigowdan

Threads: 115
Posts: 5692

Joined: Apr 28, 2010

September 24th, 2016 at 10:42:00 PM permalink

Quote: gordonm888

I have never had any interest in designing casino games, because I have always been handsomely paid to apply my intelligence to intellectually-fascinating work that matters to science, society and our country.

I spent 20 years being a database administrator for a non-profit college, after five years as a systems programmer for an engineering firm. And two years in the U.S. Army as a field artillery mathematician back in the 1980's
I've done important work for society running computer systems for higher education in addition to serving this country. I think you come off in a very false and grandiose fashion stating that your work is somehow more important or divine in any way over other people's work, - to include the the people who work in the gaming industry, or support that industry by gambling.

Quote: g888
In my opinion, "designing casino games" is like "being sodomized" - it is risky, has a very low return-on-investment, is likely to involve unpleasantness in the process of doing it, and is something that I have been intelligent enough to avoid. And neither one should be done at the dinner table.

Personally, I doubt that you may be sharp enough to author a casino game that the gambling public would respect enough to patronize, I mean, with us being at a gambling forum here -- and with many of us having achieved that game design level of installs, including Paradigm (a CPA), MathExtremist (a Harvard graduate in computer science), Geoff Hall/Switch (who worked in education and has about 500 installs), Babs (who was an air traffic controller), Teliot (a PhD mathematician and the inventor of Three-card Blackjack that was played at the Monte Carlo on the Strip) - and Mike Shackleford, the very founder of this board. You bizarrely compare it to sodomy, which is absolutely absurd and despicable. (Easy on the bourbon....)

I mean, who [the hell] exactly are you, and why are you saying this crap at this board? I don't get this approach of yours.

Quote: g888
And I did not impugn your ability to evaluate a potential new casino game -just your bwaa-haa-haa statement that a game must have "true merit" because it has been given a field trial, when the track record is so contrary to that assertion.

No, I said it had better merit because it was at Thunder Valley Casino, that is was signed up by the largest gaming company in the world, and is supported by them also. This is a bit like a major film studio signing up a new screenwriter's screen play, or a major publishing signing up a new author's book.

It is a very respectable milestone for any designer or writer, and speaks of some merit or achievement that you discredit here. Why, exactly?

Last edited by: Paigowdan on Sep 24, 2016

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Paigowdan