Dice Setting Heat...

Spinning off a separate thread, I wanted to see if others had my reaction to the claim that you will be backed off if you set the dice, bet more when you roll, and win. In my experience, I have never been backed off or threatened, only congratulated by the box and the pit. So, IN YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: "What happens when you are a dice setter, increase your bet, and hit 4 or 5 points?"

Is there a point to braggadocio? Why can't you let sleeping dogs lie? There is absolutely no upside to this debate unless you are a "coach" that needs paying students.

I see obvious dice setters at the Red Rock often, and the dealers don't seem to mind at all. Personally, I bet the don't against them, which should show my level of faith in so-called skilled shooters. The only things that I've noticed craps dealers do care about are: (1) dice should hit the back wall, and (2) no dice setting in tubs.

I've never understood it, but dice setters seem to be treated more like system betters than card counters. The house encourages the behavior.

I've seen plenty of dice setting and no heat from any dealer, At rapid craps, though, I nearly took the dice off the table, and then a dealer did tell me to keep them inside. I get the same at card games when I lean too far back on my seat while holding cards.

About the back wall, twice in rapid craps I saw shooters throw dice, once each, that landed nowhere near the wall. Both times the dealer let the shots stand, but told the player to hit the wall next shoot. All in a very nice and friendly manner, too.

Quote: rdw4potus

I've never understood it, but dice setters seem to be treated more like system betters than card counters. The house encourages the behavior.

If I ran a casino I'd welcome both types too.

I have stated before that I do not believe in dice control but that I set the dice the exact same way every throw because it amuses me -- I am there for the entertainment, so I think I should look for it anywhere I might find it.

The closest thing to heat I have ever gotten is repeated admonition to hit the back wall. It seems I have a wimpy throw that doesn't always make it, even though I throw in the air at least 2/3 the length of the table. I don't think I have ever had a short throw called a no roll.

On my recent trip through Mississippi, I had recurring problems getting the dice to go straight. On one table, every throw I made bounced to the left, no matter how hard or how lofted I threw. I was throwing from the very end, from the stick man's left, and twice when I threw the dice in the air to the "Come" label at the other end, they bounced into the air straight left and hit the base dealer in the chest. I never understood that. I complained about the table every time they complained about my not hitting the end wall, but I think they understood that I was joshing.

Probably they never give me heat because it is obvious that my throws are inconsistent and that most folks lose money when I am shooting. When the dice first come to me, I usually recommend the Don't to my fellow players.

Edit: I didn't vote. On those occasions when I do hit several points, the dealers' response is more likely to be either "Thanks" for the dealer bets I have been making, or mocking some other player that they know who has not been able to hit points that day. On some thread around here I reported that in Indiana last month I had been shooting so poorly that I started making my dealer bets on the Don't side, just so one of us could be happy with the results. That time I hit seven points toward their Sharpshooter bet, and the dealers started joking with one of their regulars that I had bested his record roll for the day. At least I had been making and hitting hardway bets for the dealers when I had an even-numbered point, so they came out OK even though the Don'ts were losing.

Quote: Doc

I have stated before that I do not believe in dice control but that I set the dice the exact same way every throw because it amuses me -- I am there for the entertainment, so I think I should look for it anywhere I might find it.

Any pt or frame -of-reference, esp'ly when and where luck is involved, is a healthy thing. (Not including superstitions, unless those are of the sorts which eventually blossom into substantial pursuits.)

Quote: DeMango

Is there a point to braggadocio? Why can't you let sleeping dogs lie? There is absolutely no upside to this debate unless you are a "coach" that needs paying students.

I don't understand your assertion. I'm not debating the merits, merely asking if people have been backed off for doing it. Sheesh.

I've not been told "no more craps," but I have had rude experiences from setting the dice and then not slinging them like a drunk. Most particularly at Treasure Island. I took their money, and when they started complaining, I didn't tip them either. Screw them if they're going to berate me for not trying to lose.

And I am definitely a George.

I will chime in here.
I can't say if dice setting helps or doesn't make a difference, but it's free and gives me better karma (in my own mind)
I once rolled 104 rolls, and I set the dice (3V set)
There is one particular boxman who gives me heat (but he is just an a-hole in general) so I quit playing while he's working.
Also, I have been asked to "not set the dice" at one casino, and I didn't even make any money...
It was at Casino Fandango in Carson City; I was playing a $3 game, and there was only two other guys there. One of the guys was a regular player (read: LOSER). Amazingly, on my hand, he won a few hundred by bettign the horn (I rolled 4 3-craps in a ROW and he pressed/parlayed) After being asked, I promptly left, and never returned. Then about a month ago, I went back, just to see if anything had changed (I actually did like that casino)...now there's a sign at the crap table "No setting the dice". I've only seen this at ONE other place (Carson City Nugget; $1 table)

Quote: TIMSPEED

...now there's a sign at the crap table "No setting the dice". I've only seen this at ONE other place (Carson City Nugget; $1 table)

I think this is an interesting topic, so I want to ask a couple of questions of those more familiar with casino operations than I am.

There have been some comments around here to the effect that a casino is required to have a rules sheet for each game and that this sheet is to be available for players to review. Is that true? If so, does the gaming control board have to approve the rules by which a casino operates its games? If so, do you think that the board has approved a "No dice setting" rule?

I have no ideas myself on the answers to any of those questions.

Edit: board, commission, whatever.

Quote: Doc

There have been some comments around here to the effect that a casino is required to have a rules sheet for each game and that this sheet is to be available for players to review. Is that true? If so, does the gaming control board have to approve the rules by which a casino operates its games? If so, do you think that the board has approved a "No dice setting" rule?

To your first question, yes... but don't expect to be allowed to go that route, or even a "tape check" each and every time requested. More of a moot question, unless you're willing and able to prove some sort and degree of perceived monetary loss by it in a civil court.

Here in Ontario, the casino- rules and procedures have been written into the gaming Acts and Reg's, with the casinos allowed also many of the usual "counter-measures".

I'm not a lawyer by degree, but spent a couple years successfully suing one of the major casinos for a cheat-at-play offence (under the criminal code of Canada) at bj.

A great thing about craps is that (if you play the right way) the rules are the same EVERYWHERE, so you can play ANYWHERE. If the pit/box is being a jerk, not letting you set the dice, or just generally being unpleasant, go somewhere else! Nobody has a monopoly on craps. Heck, set up a game on the street corner with your friends. There are just too many options to put up with nasty stuff from any people.

*Note that this is different from blackjack where conditions, rules, etc. may warrant staying in the same location.

Evidently, rules do differ from place to place, in addition to different payouts for field and prop bets and different limits on odds wagers. My question was specifically triggered by the report of a posted rule prohibiting dice setting.

I think that making this an official (and posted) rule at a casino is different from just asking a slow shooter to speed up or reminding a shooter frequently that he/she must follow some conventional rules, like hitting the end wall, one hand on the dice, keep the dice over the table, etc. Suppose a casino made a rule that you had to keep the dice visible to the dealers at all times and couldn't hold them in a closed hand to throw them. Would that be an acceptable rule? Would the casino need to list it in an official set of game rules? Would such a rule require governmental approval in a regulated casino?

Quote: teddys

A great thing about craps is that (if you play the right way) the rules are the same EVERYWHERE, so you can play ANYWHERE.

The rules, practices, conventions and decisions all change. It is the basic mathematics that are immutable.

I'm with teddy on this one, at least in Vegas. The free odds, field and prop bets do vary, yes. But I'm willing to bet most craps players who post here don't often play field or props, regardless of payout. As for free odds, how many of you place or lay 10x or more regularly? Even so, there's one casino with 10x, Stratosphere, at least two with 20x, Sam's Town and Main Street Station, and three or four with 100x, Casino Royale, rampart, and I think the two Cannery casinos.

So there are similar options in Vegas.

Well, I guess I'm redundantly repeating myself over again for another time....

Yes, so long as you avoid crapless craps, most casino games of craps are essentially the same so that rule differences don't often determine for most of us which table we are playing on. We probably choose more on convenience, limits, and environment.

As for my questions, I'm just trying to get feedback on (1) whether there must be an official list of game rules available to the players, (2) whether a casino can arbitrarily change the rules of a game (craps or otherwise) without review/approval by NGC or whatever regulatory body exists in a jurisdiction, and if not (3) would a formal prohibition on dice setting be such a rule change that requires approval.

First of all, I am quite sure that the reason for the sign is not to prevent "advantage players" from winning money. Instead, I think it is a question of throughput. Because the cost of operating a craps table for a given period of time is fixed, the casino's expected margin over that period varies with the number of players, the average bet, and the number of rolls.

If we assume that the expected profit per roll is fixed--same number of players, same bets, same house edge, then the math is clear and rather striking.

WOO suggests that a full table averages around 100 rolls per hour. Let's say 4 seconds per roll, on average, is dedicated to setting the dice. Of course some players don't set them at all, and some take an annoyingly long time to do so, but let's just say 4 seconds on average. Then 400 seconds=6 min 40 seconds of every hour goes to dice setting. So we could squeeze the 100 rolls into 53:20, which gives us a new rate of 100/53.33=1.875 rolls per minute or 60*1.875= approx 113 rolls per hour.

That's a 13% increase in rolls, and by our assumption that the expected profit per roll is the same, we have a 9% increase in expected profits. If I gave my boss an idea that increases my unit's profits 13% just by putting up a sign, I'm getting promoted.

Remember also that the revenues are related to average bet size, while dealer wages and other costs (except comps) are not, so a low-limit table needs more players and/or rolls per hour to be profitable than a higher limit one.

As for whether the casino can do it, yes. It's not a rule change but a question of etiquette. The casino can enforce rules of decorum however it feels like. I'm pretty sure the official craps rules don't say I can't have a voodoo priestess sacrifice a chicken before every one of my rolls. I might be very very convinced it gives me an advantage, but the casino isn't going to put up with it.

Finally, remembering that the margin on a low-limit table may be very slim indeed, the casino is going to find some way to increase it. I would much rather they do so by speeding up play than by raising minima, lowering payouts, charging for drinks, or any of the other options.

Quote: IWillWorkHarder

First of all, I am quite sure that the reason for the sign is not to prevent "advantage players" from winning money. Instead, I think it is a question of throughput. Because the cost of operating a craps table for a given period of time is fixed, the casino's expected margin over that period varies with the number of players, the average bet, and the number of rolls.

Or bring it out to "put off" someone "on a roll", and therefore with more to lose.

In any event, this issue is a bit of a "red herring" from what casinos may, can and do, really "get away with" with the states'/provinces' blessings. (Not nearly so "cut and dry" when it comes to governments and gaming revenues. In fact, 99.9% of even the AP's have ZERO idea... or they wouldn't bother.)

Quote: IWillWorkHarder

First of all, I am quite sure that the reason for the sign is not to prevent "advantage players" from winning money. Instead, I think it is a question of throughput. Because the cost of operating a craps table for a given period of time is fixed, the casino's expected margin over that period varies with the number of players, the average bet, and the number of rolls.

It's an okay idea, but usually dice setters take less time to do so then other players who aren't paying attention, shake them up in their hands, pick them up and put them back down to add a dollar to their yo, late bets, etc. And to be fair (and with no malice to dealers), I've probably waited 10x longer for payouts (especially center bets) or disputes, or the box examining the dice after they've left the table than the time I've spent setting the dice. So while I don't argue that they THINK that could speed things up, I don't think it does, compared to other adjustments that could be made.

Absolutely, the casino has to work with trying to get the dice moving and working the action. Rolls don't matter as much when you have a full table. Rolls also don't matter as much when the table is paying out. All that the slow game does is encourage people to bet more and to get in on the action. When the table is empty, they will move the dice as fast as possible and when you spend 30 seconds setting a roll, that slows the casino's income.

If a boxman is affecting your play and you are following the casino's set rules, declare all of your bets off, pass the dice, wait for your bet to resolve, and walk. Certainly, NO one should be backing you off because of your throw.

Quote: IWillWorkHarder

WOO suggests that a full table averages around 100 rolls per hour.

Actually, in the New Ideas thread, the Wizard states an industry accepted average of 30 rolls per hour.

Quote: IWillWorkHarder

Let's say 4 seconds per roll, on average, is dedicated to setting the dice. Of course some players don't set them at all, and some take an annoyingly long time to do so, but let's just say 4 seconds on average. Then 400 seconds=6 min 40 seconds of every hour goes to dice setting. So we could squeeze the 100 rolls into 53:20, which gives us a new rate of 100/53.33=1.875 rolls per minute or 60*1.875= approx 113 rolls per hour.

If 30 per hour, then only 120 seconds of every hour (or one roll) is, "wasted". I don't think this is much to ask, given the enjoyment that some players take from fiddling with the, "bones".

I have noticed that as long as the table is losing, the pitboss is jovial, but as soon as a shooter gets hot, suddenly there are questions being asked to the shooter, chip fills come in (for no real reason), dice are being set at "hard four" by the stick before getting passed to the shooter... I even had a pit boss (in Primm) slam a stack of chips on the table as I was about to throw, attempting to disrupt my rhythm. I haven't been, "officially" backed off, but some pit bosses are sore losers.

I don't think my "setting" the dice for amusement slows the game a noticeable amount. I set the same way every throw -- no decisions to make -- and I do understand how the faces are laid out, so I don't have to fumble with the dice to get them arranged.

There are occasions, though, when I am quite aware that I slow the game more than the stick man would like. If there is any sort of disagreement or confusion between a player and a dealer or a player is still trying to get bets down, I just won't pick up the dice. I tell the stick man I will roll when the table is ready, not when there are a lot of hands moving all over the felt. I try to be very polite about it, with the politeness pointedly being that I am trying to accommodate rather than offend my fellow players. In most cases, the bets they may be trying to get on the table are several or many times the value of my own, and it seems respectful not to be throwing the dice at their hands (assuming they are behaving reasonably). My comment to the table is usually something to the effect that I am not in so much of a hurry to lose my money that I can't wait for another player to put his at risk.

I must play craps at the nicer places in Las Vegas. I've never had any employee express any sort of impatience with me for setting the dice. (I'm really not even sure why I set the dice. I think I just like the look of the pattern on the dice prior to me rolling them.) In fact, I'd say about 75% of the time, the stick man notices how I set the dice, and usually pushes them to me in that configuration.

Quote: Doc

I don't think my "setting" the dice for amusement slows the game a noticeable amount. I set the same way every throw -- no decisions to make -- and I do understand how the faces are laid out, so I don't have to fumble with the dice to get them arranged.

I rarely play the game, only "now and then" to refresh my memory of it (in between shuffle-ups)... but perhaps any "fiddling" by one of the players or dealers at any of the games should be reason for both the casino, itself, and other players to be hesitant.

Quote: Doc

I tell the stick man I will roll when the table is ready, not when there are a lot of hands moving all over the felt.

Have you tried Rapid Craps? No hands on the felt ever.

Quote: Nareed

Have you tried Rapid Craps? No hands on the felt ever.

I've only seen it once and didn't take the time to play. I took a brief look at it in Bill's just to see the layout. I think I would try it if I encountered it some place I was going to spend some time.

I can wait for the hands to clear, but I really hate it when my throw hits a stack of chips on a crowded table. Can't really blame anyone else for the chips being out there where they're supposed to be, and it annoys me when I can't bounce the dice in between. Another justification for Rapid Craps.

Quote: Doc

I've only seen it once and didn't take the time to play. I took a brief look at it in Bill's just to see the layout. I think I would try it if I encountered it some place I was going to spend some time.

Where do you usually spend time? Given Bill's has decided to keep the game, I'd expect it at other Harrah's properties sooner than other places.

Quote: Nareed

Where do you suually spend time? Given Bill's has decided to keep the game, I'd expect it at other Harrah's properties sooner than other places.

Since I am a chip collector, I will spend at least a little bit of time at most any casino with table games. But sometimes not very much time.

So far this year, I have stayed at the Rio three times, plus six stays at Harrah's properties outside of Las Vegas (twice each in Laughlin, Tunica, and Biloxi), plus several gaming sessions at Harrah's properties where I was not staying (Tunica, Elizabeth, and New Orleans). So, yeah, if it spreads to other places in the chain, I feel certain that I will be giving it a try.

It's not that I really like Harrah's properties or their games so much. It's just that they seem to offer good, cheap rooms to everyone with a basic gold card, and I'm such a small-time player that it is quite rare for someone to offer me totally free rooms. Though I do get some such offers from Harrah's.

I am currently planning my next trip (two weeks in September). Gaming will not play a big role in this trip, but I expect to hit between four and seven casinos briefly to collect chips. Won't be staying at any of the casino properties, and Harrah's doesn't have any properties along our route.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I have noticed that as long as the table is losing, the pitboss is jovial, but as soon as a shooter gets hot, suddenly there are questions being asked to the shooter, chip fills come in (for no real reason), dice are being set at "hard four" by the stick before getting passed to the shooter... I even had a pit boss (in Primm) slam a stack of chips on the table as I was about to throw, attempting to disrupt my rhythm. I haven't been, "officially" backed off, but some pit bosses are sore losers.

That's exactly what they are...miserable people.
The one pit/box I usually play with, he doesn't care either way the table goes; win or lose. He treats everyone the same, from high rollers to fleas. He doesn't even care when I bet a doey-dont on a crowded table to simply keep my spot. (stick1-left)
Then there's another guy who's a COMPLETE opposite. He absolutely HATES fleas, LOVES the high rollers, and gets absolutely livid when someone rolls a point. (Funny story; I REALLY made him mad one day, when I told him "Man, you're such a miserable person, I'm going to make a terrble bet, it's going to hit and you'll be sad because you THINK it's coming out of your pocket"...I bet a $5 Aces and they rolled.)

Quote: Doc

It's not that I really like Harrah's properties or their games so much. It's just that they seem to offer good, cheap rooms to everyone with a basic gold card, and I'm such a small-time player that it is quite rare for someone to offer me totally free rooms.

Likewise. Two years running I've taken a deal offered at their website when you sign in with the TR membership.

Anwyay, about RC I was thinking entirely of Vegas. Which brings the question why Harrah's didn't try RC elsewhere (ie a smaller market) first.