All these new game threads...I thought up a craps mod

Darkside Craps.

Here is how it works: it's a craps table with only don't pass, don't come, don't odds, lay bets, field, and sucker bet props. no pass line come or place/buy bets.

Marketing strategy: pretty much craps for people who wanna bet don't but would rather bet with the table. even though its pretty much the same thing but less options. It would up my craps hours per trip by far. therefore i think it could cause an increase in craps played for the casino.

Has any casino tried something like this in the past?

and you get to keep the dice after shooting a 7-out?

You know,
Separating the don't players from the do-players would have prevented more than a few crap table fights, especially when the don't players start raking it in. Funny, I have never seen "Player-side" Baccarat players get pissed at Banker-side players the way I see crap players act! For the regular "Do-side" crap players, the dark-siders seem to be playing a different game and are not particularly welcome.

This idea would also speed up the play of the game, by segregating the dark-siders and simplifying ("speeding up") their own special tables - particularly with a custom "dark-sider" layout. It could have a Goth theme.

However, you gotta keep in mind three things:

1. If there were a need to have separate "dark sider tables," casinos would set up such tables just using the current layouts, with more than two crap tables - IF that were a problem. When the Fiesta had two crap tables, the dark-siders would sometimes take over one.

2. You would NOT be able to patent such an idea to have a "dark-side only" Crap table or layout, - because all the don't side bets already exist in the public domain as a public domain design (actually invented by a John H. Winn of Philadelphia around 1912 - ushering in the modern crap game we play - that replaced the dice game of Hazard.) Now, there is an exclusively Right-side crap game called Crapless Craps, invented by Bob Stupak of the Stratopshere Hotel fame. EVERY NUMBER (including, 2,3,11 and 12) are POINT or place/buy numbers, and his game is doing poorly, with the only install being the Stratosphere.

3. What you CAN do is create some special dark-side or insurance bets for the game. The FIRE bet is a right-side "jackpot" bet, but there is also a Point-Seven-out dark-side bet (called 7-Point-7) that's getting a few installs. It is next to impossible to create new bets for Craps - because John H. Winn (R.I.P. great man) had covered them with the don't-pass/don't come and lay-number bets. Only the fire bet made some inroads.

What You CAN do is create the new dark-sider layout, and copyright it as an "art work" or a "stylistic variation" (even though it is completely un-patentable.)

You do NOT need a patent to distribute a pseudo-proprietary game, unless it will sell so well it will "fly above the radar" -or infringe an existing patent - which it will not as a dark-sided bet crap game. Mini-pai Gow didn't have one in its time. It had dozens of installs, and made its inventors money and bragging rights, patent or no patent.

If you have a good dark-sider layout design that is copyright-able or can get a TradeMark, and if you take only a small share of the market, you might have a money-making niche with this, especially if it's a mini-tub table requiring only one dealer.

Quote: Paigowdan

Now, there is an exclusively Right-side crap game called Crapless Craps, invented by Bob Stupak of the Stratopshere Hotel fame. EVERY NUMBER (including, 2,3,11 and 12) are POINT or place/buy numbers, and his game is doing poorly, with the only install being the Stratosphere.

Crapless is pretty popular in the Missouri casinos. I'd say most casinos have at least one crapless layout, and it's usually getting pretty good action too.

I Didn't know that - and that's good to hear.

The Wizard doesn't post game install numbers at this site - and I think NO site does - although that might be a particularly interesting number to track with his otherwise extremely complete site. (Mike - call JB??!!)

Crapless Craps is doing very poorly here in Las Vegas - not that that means anything anymore, with ther majority of States having casinos now.

We are in a new epoch, and new things have to be tracked.

Quote: Paigowdan

What You CAN do is create the new dark-sider layout, and copyright it as an "art work" or a "stylistic variation" (even though it is completely un-patentable.)

But is that worthwhile? What's to prevent a casino from coming up with their own layout design for a dark side table? If it were patentable, that's one thing, since the patent would apply to the dark side concept and wouldn't ocncern itself with the specifics of the layout.

On the subject of craps layouts, by chance, yesterday I was poking around and stumbled onto the Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs PA website, and was shocked to see this grahpic:
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/mohegan_sun_pa.JPG
Round edge dice?

And check out the layout. Very odd looking place / come area. And no room for hop bets, and very little of the normal junk in the middle.

Very strange....

And why are they showing the seven with all those field, horn and place bets out there?

And most strange to me...why does the die on the left have the 3 and 4 faces adjacent to each other?

Quote: Doc

And most strange to me...why does the die on the left have the 3 and 4 faces adjacent to each other?

Because the artist dind't know the rule that opposite die faces add up to 7. I actually learned that at shop class in junior high when we made a decorative alumminum die.

The placement of the pips shoulnd't make any difference in a random throw, but they might pose problems for dice setters. Rounded edges should also make little or no difference.

But let's get to the reall issue here. If the singular is "die," should'nt the plural be "dies" rather than "dice"? I'm guessing "dice" is a relly old word.

Quote: Nareed

But let's get to the reall issue here. If the singular is "die," should'nt the plural be "dies" rather than "dice"? I'm guessing "dice" is a relly old word.

Either plural is correct, although "dies" usually refers to objects used in forging materials to shape while "dice" usually refers to the cubes. According to Merriam-Webster, the noun version of "die" entered the English language in the 14th century from Middle English and Middle French. The verb "die" (to kick off) entered the language in the 12th century.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

But is that worthwhile? What's to prevent a casino from coming up with their own layout design for a dark side table? If it were patentable, that's one thing, since the patent would apply to the dark side concept and wouldn't ocncern itself with the specifics of the layout.

DJ - RE: jpprovance:
It's because he cannot patent a dark-side crap game at this point (since it's public domain on the existing crap game layout that we all use and play on), but he can still consider copyrighting the "artwork" that incorporates his specific math work - for such a layout. If sales are below a certain level, and if there's a small market for it, casinos would sooner buy from him at a reasonable markup, than re-designing the entire dark-side layout themselves from scratch. If the market takes off, then he would quickly have competition with no protection, but by then, and being the first, he's made his money, and he is still the market leader.

To use an analogy: The market is split between the "Gemaco playing cards" and "U.S. playing cards," even though casinos can purchase a paper mill and printing press company themselves - to make their own cards. You cannot patent playing cards - but you can copyright designs on "stylistic" gaming elements to keep a certain percentage of the market. The same can be done with table layouts that are otherwise completely in the public domain - by selling a dedicated layout with a "technical" advantage under a copyright OR trademark (a "brand").

By having a copyright on a layout's particular artwork and design, and by being first, you can a small amount of specialized market control of a "public area," that could later be split by not having "100% dominance" from a patent, true. But you can still get your design out, and have a rewarding share of the market with a "brand" - if the area you are operating in is already under the public domain area. Playing card suppliers operate on that basis, as do layout manufacturers for craps and blackjack.

Quote: Paigowdan

DJ - RE: jpprovance:
It's because he cannot patent a dark-side crap game at this point (since it's public domain on the existing crap game layout that we all use and play on), but he can still consider copyrighting the "artwork" that incorporates his specific math work - for such a layout. If sales are below a certain level, and if there's a small market for it, casinos would sooner buy from him at a reasonable markup, than re-designing the entire dark-side layout themselves from scratch. If the market takes off, then he would quickly have competition with no protection, but by then, and being the first, he's made his money, and he is still the market leader.

To use an analogy: The market is split between the "Gemaco playing cards" and "U.S. playing cards," even though casinos can purchase a paper mill and printing press company themselves - to make their own cards. You cannot patent playing cards - but you can copyright designs on "stylistic" gaming elements to keep a certain percentage of the market. The same can be done with table tables that are completely in the public domain - by selling a dedicated layout with a "technical" advantage under a copyright.

And on that note, you may have to be careful calling the game "Darkside craps." Apparently Lucasfilms owns the trademark to Droid (that new phone by Verizon), since there is a lot of tribute given in the small print. Given that, I wouldn't be surprised if he owns a trademark to the "dark side" as well.

If you came up with a Star Wars themed casino though, I bet that game would do quite well... if the casino doesn't bomb.

Quote: Tiltpoul

And on that note, you may have to be careful calling the game "Darkside craps." Apparently Lucasfilms owns the trademark to Droid (that new phone by Verizon), since there is a lot of tribute given in the small print. Given that, I wouldn't be surprised if he owns a trademark to the "dark side" as well.

If you came up with a Star Wars themed casino though, I bet that game would do quite well... if the casino doesn't bomb.

VERY TRUE! In this case, you would work with a Trademark/Copyright attorney, instead of a patent attorney, and perhaps call it "Darkside Shooter Gaming products, Inc." knowing that you are vulnerable to some market loss if it takes off. While no patents are possible, you can still infringe trademarks and copyrights, as well as hold trademarks and copyrights that can hold your market.

Chinese textile firms will ship layouts with "Darsider Clap Rayouts" - but casinos won't buy them if you're a market leader who charges reasonable prices and has the "panache" and reputation. Apple Computers and products will hold their share of the market over Dell and Acer, because of market "penache" and their trademarks that protect it, above technical specs. No patents here, but its a public domain marketing area holding things down for each player.

Quote: Paigowdan

Crapless Craps is doing very poorly here in Las Vegas - not that that means anything anymore, with ther majority of States having casinos now.

We are in a new epoch, and new things have to be tracked.

I know Crapless Craps in Las Vegas is at the Stratosphere, The Plaza and Vegas Club downtown.

Last year I visited Tunica and all but one casino had Crapless craps and half had 2 tables.
A friend was in Mississippi and said Crapless is at every casino he visited. Down south they have a slightly different version called Never Craps and something else that he had mentioned.
Maybe members from there can update us.