Integrity of table games at Indian casinos

This post attempts to avoid any assertions that disparage any entity. Instead, its purpose is to ask a couple of care-fully thought-out questions.

Let me first say that I have played in casinos in Nevada, New Jersey and California for decades and have never had any reason to speculate about the integrity of any of the casino games offered there. Of course, those casinos all operate under state regulations.

I have played in several "Indian-reservation" casinos in a handful of states. I personally have not had any reason to speculate about the integrity of Blackjack/21 or Pai Gow Poker (and variant) games nor about the integrity of poker games offered by the poker rooms of those casinos.

Now, for my questions:

1. Has Harrah's, Caesar's or any major casino operator ever made a public assertion (or made "public warranty") that in no casino that they operate in any jurisdiction shall the casino staff ever used automated devices with the intention of controlling or influencing (without fair notice or announcement) the composition of cards in any hand dealt to a player or dealer in any table game they operate? (notice that video poker and slot machine games are not included in this question.)

2. Has Shufflemaster, Inc. or any other provider of customized automated shuffler systems (for proprietary games that they license) ever made a public statement or assertion in any public filing that their corporate policy and practice is to never provide equipment, specifically automated shuffler systems, for table games to casinos in any jurisdiction that has features that allow the casino operator the option of altering, influencing or controlling the composition of cards in hands dealt to the dealer or any player?

In my opinion, this thread certainly has the potential to spiral off into anyone of several tangents. I ask respondents to initially respond to the immediate questions I have posed: are there public statements by either casino operators or providers of automated shuffler systems of corporate policy and/or of past or current practice regarding the integrity of casino table games that they offer on Indian reservations?

At least at the state level, samples of equipment are tested, and manufacturing facilities inspected by the state representatives, either in a state lab, or an approved third party facility) to ensure that they are meeting state regulations for fair results. I don't know if the corporation needs to state it publicly since their equipment is specifically manufactured to meet the state's regulations. I don't know if the regulations on tribal lands have the same standards.

There were serious questions raised about the ability of the casino to change the conditions of the games when central server based games were first proposed. I think the questions were eventually answered satisfactorily by the manufacturers.

Edit: Here's a link to a scholarly article reporting the results of a performance test on a single pass 10-shelf shuffling machine. Note that the test was solicited by the manufacturer, but the article also describes other methodologies.

Edit 2: Here is a link to the submission form for card shufflers to receive certification by New Jersey's Gaming Enforcement Division.

Quote: gordonm888

2. Has Shufflemaster, Inc. or any other provider of customized automated shuffler systems (for proprietary games that they license) ever made a public statement or assertion in any public filing that their corporate policy and practice is to never provide equipment, specifically automated shuffler systems, for table games to casinos in any jurisdiction that has features that allow the casino operator the option of altering, influencing or controlling the composition of cards in hands dealt to the dealer or any player?

Isn't this why SHFL leases and doesn't sell their equipment? The casino is never allowed to alter the equipment in any way...

They have sold to some casinos.

By, the way, I have attempted to draw a distinction between state-regulated casinos, and Indian casinos that operate outside of state law and outside of most federal laws. As far as I know, there is no regulation of Indian casinos by the state or by any entity other than the "Indian nation." (if someone knows more about how these Indian casinos are regulated, please jump in and correct me.)

So, its not enough for Harrah's to claim they are following all the applicable rules and regulations -because some casinos have no applicable regulations.

I think the default assumption for many decades has been that all casinos provide "fair" games. I am asking a fundamental question : does any entity - casinos, equipment providers, regulatory agencies, anybody - actually claim/assert that table games offered by Indian reservation casinos are not cooked to provide a larger house advantage?

But what good does a claim / assertion do? If they are cheating on the cards, they might as well cheat on their words.

With regards to PGP, it would be simple to unlink the shuffler from the game by ensuring that the deal number picker was separated from the shuffler. Certainly at Caesars properties this week with PGP I have been surprised at some of the dealer hands but nothing to make me suspect anything. The casino is making about $.65/pp/hand based on a $15 minimum + $5 fortune paid so no need to cheat.

With regards to BJ, most Blackjack on the strip now below $25 is sucky 6:5 anyway and is being played regularly by idiots. No need to cheat the player with about 240 person - hands per hour at $10/min play at 2+%.

So I don't see why the casino operators would try to cheat gaming.

Quote: gordonm888

1. Has Harrah's, Caesar's or any major casino operator ever made a public assertion (or made "public warranty") that in no casino that they operate in any jurisdiction shall the casino staff ever used automated devices with the intention of controlling or influencing (without fair notice or announcement) the composition of cards in any hand dealt to a player or dealer in any table game they operate? (notice that video poker and slot machine games are not included in this question.)

I'm sure they haven't, because it would be such an obvious point to make, and, ironically, doing so would probably arouse suspicion:

"Hey, we're Harrah's, and our casino staff is definitely not rigging the machines!"

It would be like if, completely unprovoked, they said something like, "Hey, our maids definitely do not go into your room at night and go through your stuff!" Everyone would be like, "Wait, why would they even say that unless something fishy was going on?"

A casino is basically a license to print money. They don't need to cheat.

Quote: boymimbo

...So I don't see why the casino operators would try to cheat gaming.

Agreed, but to play a bit of the devils advocate, we hear time and time again news stories/articles of casinos that are caught cheating. There was an indian reservation caught cheating last year when they apparently removed a few of each Aces, Kings, Queens, Jacks, and 10's from their blackjack games. Like you state, why on Earth should they do this when they have a built in edge? Well, because they got fined some piss poor amount that did nothing to them and they moved along.

When a casino gets caught cheating the parent company should be fined enough to cripple them... but they're smart-ish (in crime) and create fall guys. What do you do if a PB is removing these cards and the casino managers claim they had no knowledge and would never want this. Then they pay off the PB to say "I was just acting on my own to try to make my shift reports look better." Well, certainly you can't blame the casino at this point (even though they could have easily told him to do that and bribed him to say that).

"What do all men with power want? More power..." - The Matrix

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: gordonm888

1. Has Harrah's, Caesar's or any major casino operator ever made a public assertion (or made "public warranty") that in no casino that they operate in any jurisdiction shall the casino staff ever used automated devices with the intention of controlling or influencing (without fair notice or announcement) the composition of cards in any hand dealt to a player or dealer in any table game they operate? (notice that video poker and slot machine games are not included in this question.)

A casino is basically a license to print money. They don't need to cheat.

Thats not a valid argument. Im not on the side of conspiracy theorists who belive all kinds of wacky stuff everytime they lose a hand. But cheating has happend, does happen and will happen In the gaming industry.

See Cantor gaming. They knew there was a problem and did nothing(not enough anyways) to fix the problem and then apperrantly they tried to cover it up. Looks like 600k worth of cheating.

It's simple....don't play tables that have shuffle machines if you think they are cheating.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: TigerWu

A casino is basically a license to print money. They don't need to cheat.

Thats not a valid argument. Im not on the side of conspiracy theorists who belive all kinds of wacky stuff everytime they lose a hand. But cheating has happend, does happen and will happen In the gaming industry.

I know, but with this specific example it sounds like you're talking about cheating on an industry-wide level. In this day and age of corporate run casinos, that's just not going to happen. In the past? Yeah, it definitely happened.

Quote:

See Cantor gaming. They knew there was a problem and did nothing to fix the problem and them tried to cover it up. Looks like 600k worth of cheating.

I don't know about that story...

Quote: TigerWu

I know, but with this specific example it sounds like you're talking about cheating on an industry-wide level. In this day and age of corporate run casinos, that's just not going to happen. In the past? Yeah, it definitely happened.



I don't know about that story...

Why can't it be on the casino level?

I don't know enough about the machines themselves but if the machines have the technology to cheat there's nothing to say the casino themselves couldn't just rig them. Personally I don't think it's happening,
I just don't like that paticular argument.

Please don't just think its only happened in the past.

So you really think cg intended to cheat? Just FYI the 700 would not move cantors value as a company even 1/10 of 1 percent.: I just think it was laziness- not that they shouldn't be fined but just like that baccarat game at the nugget, anyone that thinks it was intentional is vrazy

So; here's something I've been wondering. Let's say a casino is dealing a 5 deck game from a one2six shuffler. Which you guys mention you're seeing here and there. There's almost always some cards in the discard tray, then they get fed back into the csm. Who says there are 5 full decks in there? What if it's 6 decks, with 1 deck worth of high cards stripped out? How would anybody know?

Quote: AxelWolf

Why can't it be on the casino level?

I don't know enough about the machines themselves but if the machines have the technology to cheat there's nothing to say the casino themselves couldn't just rig them. Personally I don't think it's happening,
I just don't like that paticular argument.

Basically my argument just boils down to the risk-benefit not being worth it to the casino/company/industry. Theoretically it's possible, but they are already making a mint so there's no reason to cheat. Now on the sub-casino level? That's certainly more plausible; i.e., individual dealers or small crews of employees.

Quote:

Please don't just think its only happened in the past.

The OP was talking about major corporations like Harrah's being culpable in the cheating. I don't think it happens on that level anymore, at least not in the U.S.

Quote: beachbumbabs

So; here's something I've been wondering. Let's say a casino is dealing a 5 deck game from a one2six shuffler. Which you guys mention you're seeing here and there. There's almost always some cards in the discard tray, then they get fed back into the csm. Who says there are 5 full decks in there? What if it's 6 decks, with 1 deck worth of high cards stripped out? How would anybody know?

Most shufflers these days have the ability to shuffle the cards, identifying each card and will throw a "red light" or an error code if there isn't the right number of cards or if there's a problem with a specific card.

I'm not as familiar with the CSM's on blackjack, but on other table games I've seen the shuffler report an error stating "51 cards, missing the 9d" for example. I've even had a PB "prove" the machines worked by removing the As, putting the deck in the shuffler, then letting me see the shuffler error stating it was missing the As. It's this level of detail that tells us the machine DOES know how to identify the cards specifically, which is just a stones throw away from organizing the hands to benefit the dealer.

You know what? I probably shouldn't have opened my mouth... I really don't know much about how those shuffle systems work.

So forget I said anything! Haha....

Quote: TigerWu

Basically my argument just boils down to the risk-benefit not being worth it to the casino/company/industry. Theoretically it's possible, but they are already making a mint so there's no reason to cheat. Now on the sub-casino level? That's certainly more plausible; i.e., individual dealers or small crews of employees.



The OP was talking about major corporations like Harrah's being culpable in the cheating. I don't think it happens on that level anymore, at least not in the U.S.

If companies like Volkswagen are capable of it so are US casinos. The problem is there's not enough gaming agents and testing that goes on.
And even then who's watching the gaming agents.

We shouldn't just assume casinos have no reason to cheat and keep assuming it's all good, because it's not all good, especially when stories come out all the time.

There's probably some gaffed slot machines being played right now. There's probably some casino cheating right now. For the most part I don't think casinos are cheating.

I wouldn't want people to stop reporting suspicious stuff.I say keep reporting. Obviously it gets annoying when people have outlandish crackaddic claims that have zero merit. I think most of us can spot thr people who are not credible and perhaps even a bit loonytoons.

Quote: Romes

Most shufflers these days have the ability to shuffle the cards, identifying each card and will throw a "red light" or an error code if there isn't the right number of cards or if there's a problem with a specific card.

I'm not as familiar with the CSM's on blackjack, but on other table games I've seen the shuffler report an error stating "51 cards, missing the 9d" for example. I've even had a PB "prove" the machines worked by removing the As, putting the deck in the shuffler, then letting me see the shuffler error stating it was missing the As. It's this level of detail that tells us the machine DOES know how to identify the cards specifically, which is just a stones throw away from organizing the hands to benefit the dealer.

Certainly the technology exists to read the face value of the cards, so for example in games such as Baccarat the casino could if they wanted to, know in advance how each hand will be played out. In regards to built in table shufflers it is my understanding they count the number of cards present and if one is missing it throws up an error, it won't inform which card is missing. So theoretically a casino could remove certain value cards and replace them with differing value cards so long as the actual number of cards was correct.

Quote: beachbumbabs

So; here's something I've been wondering. Let's say a casino is dealing a 5 deck game from a one2six shuffler. Which you guys mention you're seeing here and there. There's almost always some cards in the discard tray, then they get fed back into the csm. Who says there are 5 full decks in there? What if it's 6 decks, with 1 deck worth of high cards stripped out? How would anybody know?

Not that I have a lot of experience playing them but at my local when they load the cards they spread them across the table, hand shuffle and then load them into the machine. When the cards come out they sort them and place them back into the packs. If a casino doesn't have a similar rule for loading and unloading then we would have no idea that wasn't happening.

Quote: Romes

Most shufflers these days have the ability to shuffle the cards, identifying each card and will throw a "red light" or an error code if there isn't the right number of cards or if there's a problem with a specific card.

I'm not as familiar with the CSM's on blackjack, but on other table games I've seen the shuffler report an error stating "51 cards, missing the 9d" for example. I've even had a PB "prove" the machines worked by removing the As, putting the deck in the shuffler, then letting me see the shuffler error stating it was missing the As. It's this level of detail that tells us the machine DOES know how to identify the cards specifically, which is just a stones throw away from organizing the hands to benefit the dealer.

What you're saying is true, but misses addressing my question. I'm talking specifically about a csm use of a multi deck shuffler, where the dealer is using it as a shoe, letting several hands play out, reloading those cards from the discard bin, and continuing.

All decks in play are rarely in the machine. When they are, there are enough physical cards in the shuffler to register as correct (5 decks, 4 decks, whatever ) but not true decks (presuming a deck's worth of high card removal ), assuming the one2six has been "told" how many decks are in play. Maybe the shuffler doesn't even need to know how many decks are in it to operate in this mode.

I know the machines can be operated without the card reader tracking values. Whether they ARE operating that way is unknown to the players. The "sort" function, which uses the reader, is a key - only operation, a special stop on a multi-key position, and the "deal" function is a different stop on the same key.

So I wonder if there are manufacturer safeguards against a crooked casino using their product like this.

Here is an interesting video, using cheap equipment, that basically records the sequence of all cards after the shuffle and cut.

For a game such as Baccarat, the casino if they wanted, would know how the shoe is going to pan out in advance. I am not saying this information is of any benefit to the casino, as players come and go, nor would they know in advance which side they are going to bet. All I am doing is highlighting it that it is possible, if it is possible to track card sequences yet to be dealt, therefore the composition of a Baccarat shoe using this cheap equipment, what are the capabilities of the $60000+ Angel equipment?

Let's say a casino is playing host to a whale, who only likes to bet Bank, or only bets for streaks, I'm not suggesting it is possible to pre-arrange a shoe, if the equipment in the video can tell you which side will win in advance, what can the really expensive equipment do?

youtube

Not saying at all that the video is fake- but a lot of it is off camera and it could be set up

There have been enough incidents of concealed cameras hidden in sleeves and patrons fanning the cards before inserting the cut card (search youtube for Baccarat cheats). Which have lead to most casinos I frequent to disallow such action. You can no longer stroke the deck before inserting the cut card.

I think it is rather straight forward for a casino to have advance knowledge (if they wanted) of card sequences, therefore shoe characteristics. I am questioning if this is possible using basic equipment, what can the expensive equipment achieve? Would be possible to pre-order the cards knowing the habit of say a certain player at the table? Personally I don't think so, don't think they would bother, however would be open minded about it.