Craps Wizard of Odds Put vs Come confusion.....

Please see:

Section 'Come' and Section 'Put Bets' seem to be very confusing. Is a Come bet with odds the same thing as a Put bet?

If so, why would the odds on a Put bet be any different than a Pass line bet with the same odds?

Or am I totally confused?

-J

A Put bet is made after the point is established. So you can't win on the seven-eleven or lose on the craps. Otherwise it is the same as a line bet with odds.

Why does he say 'A put bet is a combination of making a pass line or come bet after a point is established and betting on the odds.'?

Is that a mistake?

-J

No, not a mistake, just a poor choice of words. It's not a pass line or come bet at all, however it looks and acts like a pass line bet after the point has been established.

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I find put bets a bit hard to explain. Agreed, my earlier explanation was not clear. I just changed it as follows, but am open to any comments or suggested alternative wording.

In craps the player may skip the come out roll on a pass or come bet. Such a late bet on the pass and come is known as a "put bet." Much of the value in pass and come bets is in the come out roll, so skipping it is caries a high house edge. To be specific, 33.33% on the 4 and 10, 20.00% on the 5 and 9, and 9.09% on the 6 and 8. However, odds may be added, lowering the overall house edge. The following table shows the combined house edge according to the multiple of odds the player adds to a put bet.

Yeah, it IS confusing. It gets more confusing when explained in detail at a beginners crap class, like the one I took at the Stratosphere. And I took that class AFTER I was comfortable with most bets. I was just killing time, and got a headache from the class.


Anyway, a PLACE bet is nothing more than a SPECIFIC put bet.

A PUT bet is where you PUT the come and come odds out at the same time.

THEREFORE: A $6 put (or place) bet on the 6 or 8 works, AND PAYS, like a $1 come bet with $5 odds. It pays 1:1 and 6:5 or $1 + $6.

A $5 put or place on the 5 or 9 is like $1 + $4 and pays 1:1 and 3:2 or $1 + $6

A $5 put or place (without 'buying' it) on the 4 or 10 is like $1 + $4 and pays 1:1 and 2:1 or $1 + $8.

The difference between a place and a put is that you can go up to the max multiplier on the odds for a put bet.


Understand now?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Anyway, a PLACE bet is nothing more than a SPECIFIC put bet.

A PUT bet is where you PUT the come and come odds out at the same time.

THEREFORE: A $6 put (or place) bet on the 6 or 8 works, AND PAYS, like a $1 come bet with $5 odds. It pays 1:1 and 6:5 or $1 + $6.

A $5 put or place on the 5 or 9 is like $1 + $4 and pays 1:1 and 3:2 or $1 + $6

A $5 put or place (without 'buying' it) on the 4 or 10 is like $1 + $4 and pays 1:1 and 2:1 or $1 + $8.

The difference between a place and a put is that you can go up to the max multiplier on the odds for a put bet.
Understand now?

Is this the guy who kept reiterating that a place bet is just a put bet with odds? I don't think there is a more confusing way to explain place bets. Most people don't even know what a put bet is, as this thread demonstrates. Why not just say 7:6, 7:5, 9:5 which are things everyone who plays horses or sports can understand?

Edit: Sorry, DJ, I wasn't attacking your explanation of put bets. I was attacking the Strat dice dealer's explanation of place bets, which I think was misguided.

I edit0004

Quote: teddys

Is this the guy who kept reiterating that a place bet is just a put bet with odds? I don't think there is a more confusing way to explain place bets. Most people don't even know what a put bet is, as this thread demonstrates.

I realize that talking about a place bet when explaining a put bet can be confusing, but most craps players know what a place bet is. Also, take way I explained it and ignore the "or place" comments, and you'd have the EXACT way it was explained at the Stratosphere class I took.

Quote: teddys

Why not just say 7:6, 7:5, 9:5 which are things everyone who plays horses or sports can understand?

Because that's not correct. Put bets are TWO bets. One bet pays even money, the other pays standard odds payments like come bets.


And here's the key:

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The difference between a place and a put is that you can go up to the max multiplier on the odds for a put bet.

I.E. A put bet on the 6 or 8 does NOT have to be $6. If it's a 10x table, you can put $11, and get paid $13, etc.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Because that's not correct. Put bets are TWO bets. One bet pays even money, the other pays standard odds payments like come bets.

I'm assuming the even money portion of a put bet would have to be at the table minimum, correct? So although I could make a 6 dollar place bet at around 1.5%HA I'd have to do a 30 dollar put bet to have the same house edge. Am I getting this right?

If so, it seems that the only times a put bed would be advantageous is if there are relatively high free odds offered, and the only place I've played with high free odds (Main Street Station) told me I could not make a pass line bet after the come out roll...so I imagine they would disallow put bets as well.

Quote: teddys

Put bets are TWO bets. One bet pays even money, the other pays standard odds payments like come bets.

Exactly.
A put bet is a come bet with odds made directly on a number.
A put bet is also a pass line bet, made on the pass line, with odds made after the point has been established.

Quote: progrocker

If so, it seems that the only times a put bed would be advantageous is if there are relatively high free odds offered, and the only place I've played with high free odds (Main Street Station) told me I could not make a pass line bet after the come out roll...so I imagine they would disallow put bets as well.

I would say less than half of casinos accept put bets on box numbers and most do on the pass line.
I play at Main Street Station quite often and have seen many put bets on the pass line. I have never seen or have asked about making them on the box numbers. I think we all know, even dealers can get confused at times.

Quote: progrocker

I'm assuming the even money portion of a put bet would have to be at the table minimum, correct? So although I could make a 6 dollar place bet at around 1.5%HA I'd have to do a 30 dollar put bet to have the same house edge. Am I getting this right?

Yes, the flat bet part of the put bet would have to be at least the table minimum.

Quote: progrocker

If so, it seems that the only times a put bed would be advantageous is if there are relatively high free odds offered

Exactly right. The wizard explains that here.
https://wizardofodds.com/craps
past half way down the page.

Quote: teddys

Edit: Sorry, DJ, I wasn't attacking your explanation of put bets. I was attacking the Strat dice dealer's explanation of place bets, which I think was misguided.

No problem. To be honest, I totally agree with you.

For the record, this is not the first time that I told that story here. But the previous times, I included the comment that, knowing a place is really a put, etc, is probably the way they teach it in dealer school. Important to the dealers, meaningless to a novice player.

I also have mentioned elsewhere, that the most important thing to a novice that he should have mentioned, he completely skipped - explaining the relative position of place bet stacks to the person's spot at the table.

Quote: progrocker

I'm assuming the even money portion of a put bet would have to be at the table minimum, correct? So although I could make a 6 dollar place bet at around 1.5%HA I'd have to do a 30 dollar put bet to have the same house edge. Am I getting this right?

7craps already gave you an answer. I've never seen a put bet in action, so the minimum bet part of it never occurred to me.

But, if big bets don't bother you, at a 10x table, you could put a 6 or 8 for $55 and to pay $65, where a place of $54 pays $63.

Are there any 20x or 100x $1 tables left? Do they allow put bets? A $102 place pays $119. A $101 put pays $121. Sure it's a minor difference, but.....

I would say "put" bets are complicated to anyone who hasn't played more than a few hours of the game and knows what a come bet is. It took me my first day trip to Vegas to fully understand what it means.

I use the put bet when in the middle of a hot roll and the shooter rolls a 7 on the come out. If I have all the numbers covered at that point from multiple come bets I don't like to have to 'start over' with the numbers. Any casino I have played at will let me keep the numbers and odds in place by paying the base bet on the numbers (the odds were going to be returned anyway because I play 'off' on the come out). I always let the dealer know first by calling out 'leave em up' before they are removed.