Patent Protection vs. Copyright Protection

Patent:
Pro: Strong protection.
Con: Expensive & difficult to obtain, time consuming and slow process, benefit is limited to only 20 years.

Copyright:
Pro: Less expensive & easy to obtain, quick process, benefit is much longer than 20 years.
Con: Weak protection.

It is true that copyrighted property can be easily tweaked to overcome the IP protection. However, casino game design is heavily dependent on statistically outcomes such as HE, EV and others, and any small tweak can render the game economically useless or commercially unviable.

Let’s use a Double Blackjack, which is currently live at GVR for the purpose of discussion ( https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/24216-new-game-double-blackjack-goes-live-gvr/# ). What potential adverse issues do you see if Double Blackjack game is copyrighted instead of patented?

Surely you jest ?

Copyright will not protect the process through which a particular work was created or the use of information within it

http://cjam.info/en/legal-informations/copyright/165-the-difference-between-copyright-and-patent

Patents and copyrights don't cover the same things. It's not an apt comparison. What exactly would you want to copyright in an attempt to protect a card game?

I don't think copyrights really work for games. Methods and Systems can not be copyrighted and most likely would need some form of patent protection.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/5-things-you-cant-copyright

Quote: DRich

I don't think copyrights really work for games. Methods and Systems can not be copyrighted and most likely would need some form of patent protection.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/5-things-you-cant-copyright

Generally speaking, all games have set of instructions, similar to that of a cook book or a recipe. So I was thinking along the line of copyright the instructions part of the game (for example, the Scrabble game was copyrighted years before the change of the law to allow patenting a business method or process).

The written expression that is the set of instructions can be copyrighted. The method explained by those instructions cannot. In other words, playing a card game that is described by a copyrighted set of rules is not a violation of the copyright itself. Copying those rules would be, but someone could just paraphrase the rules and then offer the game for play. If I rewrite the rules for Scrabble, and call it something else, and change the board slightly, I can sell a Scrabble knock-off. That's what Words With Friends is. The copyright to the rules for Scrabble doesn't preclude anyone from playing any possible make-words-with-tiles game.

Quote: MathExtremist

The written expression that is the set of instructions can be copyrighted. The method explained by those instructions cannot. In other words, playing a card game that is described by a copyrighted set of rules is not a violation of the copyright itself. Copying those rules would be, but someone could just paraphrase the rules and then offer the game for play. If I rewrite the rules for Scrabble, and call it something else, and change the board slightly, I can sell a Scrabble knock-off. That's what Words With Friends is. The copyright to the rules for Scrabble doesn't preclude anyone from playing any possible make-words-with-tiles game.

We all are aware that the copyrighted protection can easily be overcome by little tweaking. But I wonder if the tweaking, however small, can maintain commercially viable of the game from the standpoint of HE, EV or other mathematical factors.

Quote: 777

We all are aware that the copyrighted protection can easily be overcome by little tweaking. But I wonder if the tweaking, however small, can maintain commercially viable of the game from the standpoint of HE, EV or other mathematical factors.

The written description of game rules is different from the game rules. I can copyright a set of written rules for blackjack. You can't legally copy them, but you can still play blackjack using those rules and you can still describe the same rules for blackjack using other language.

In other words, tweaking the description of a game's rules does not mean the rules themselves have changed at all. Same rules, same house edge.

It is my understanding that copyrights also protect aspects of the game layout. But a minor change, and it's good. That's why some game layouts sometimes have weird elements such as betting spots that are squares, triangles and diamonds instead of circles.

Exactly.! The patents and copyrights differ in every way. Some people confuse in between patents , copyrights, and trademarks. Although there may be some similarities among these kinds of intellectual property protection (mod note; semi-spam removed), but they are different and serve different purposes . Copyright is a form of protection provided to the authors of original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and unpublished. A trademark is a word, name or symbol e which is used in trade with goods to indicate the source of the goods and to distinguish them from the goods of others.

Are you a game inventor?

If you create a casino game, generally you get a provisional patent ($100 if you file yourself) and find either a casino to showcase it or a tradeshow that casino's go to. Get it in at least 1 casino and see how it does. If it does well, you could get $1500 a month per table per casino (if you got 10 casino's to offer 2 tables, you'd make $360,000 a year.) If it did well, you'd probably get a buyout offer from SHFL and hope that it was 5-10 times what you think you could make a year. Since they have existing relationships with many casino's, they might get 30-50 casinos to offer 1-5 tables if it's really popular.

Side bets are less, maybe $100 per table per casino (maybe more than that) per month.

You can get a copyright on the rules and table layout, and a free online version to play for testing it out. Provisional patent is ideal until it's bringing in real money. After that, it's worth the $3000 a typical patent costs; but you already have the provisional patent. You can also trademark the logo and name.

Here's a hint: Poker and blackjack variants with a side bet have the best odds in a tough market, try to sell it to a local casino where everybody knows you (unless they'd worry about losing your business if their buying the game would make bar you from play. I know it bars you from that game, since you created it; but maybe from play at the casino like a gaming regulator or a casino employee.)

The easy way to think about it is that copyrights are for words and drawings that are in a written form. Patents are for design processes and procedures. Today it is a lot harder to get a table game patent than it was a few years ago. Copyrights are very easy to get and will almost always be granted it if no one else has copyrighted it.

Quote: billionaireben

If it does well, you could get $1500 a month per table per casino...

i think that's a gross overestimate.

Quote: billionaireben

Provisional patent is ideal until it's bringing in real money. After that, it's worth the $3000 a typical patent costs...

That's not including the lawyer's fees.

I stated "could" get, no gaurantee. I think that's what 3cp is licensed for.

You can file your own patent, most provisional patents are home grown. I could write a game patent, I have 2 games and 3 sidebets in the back of my head and based on patent filings for other games; I could write the application. There may also be templates, lawyers use them. I wrote a PPM, that would be $5000 or more to hire an attorney for. People think that the patent could get thrown out if you write it yourself, Okay; write it and pay a lawyer $100 to read it. A friend of mine actually charged $5000 just to review a PPM, but he was a special case; there are competant people who will review it for $100 as long as you prove the math separately.

Quote: billionaireben

I stated "could" get, no gaurantee. I think that's what 3cp is licensed for.

You can file your own patent, most provisional patents are home grown. I could write a game patent, I have 2 games and 3 sidebets in the back of my head and based on patent filings for other games; I could write the application. There may also be templates, lawyers use them. I wrote a PPM, that would be $5000 or more to hire an attorney for. People think that the patent could get thrown out if you write it yourself, Okay; write it and pay a lawyer $100 to read it. A friend of mine actually charged $5000 just to review a PPM, but he was a special case; there are competant people who will review it for $100 as long as you prove the math separately.

There are literally zero patent attorneys worth hiring if their fee is only $100. That's like going to a dentist because they advertise "80% off."

If you are not already a competent patent draftsperson, you have virtually no chance of writing and prosecuting a patent on a casino table game successfully. Even if you are a highly skilled patent attorney with years of experience, getting a table game patent these days is very difficult. If you don't even understand the recent and very relevant caselaw, you've got as much of a shot at a patent grant as I would at hitting a major league curveball (okay, probably even a mediocre college curveball). There is a lot going in the courts specifically relevant to gaming that isn't covered in the Nolo Press books.

Quote: billionaireben

I stated "could" get, no gaurantee. I think that's what 3cp is licensed for.

You can file your own patent, most provisional patents are home grown. I could write a game patent, I have 2 games and 3 sidebets in the back of my head and based on patent filings for other games; I could write the application.

A good thing to remember is copyright does not apply to patents so you are free to copy another persons patent and just modify the parts that are different. After having written my own patent I would probably ask an attorney to review it and help me tighten up the claims. I would expect this to take a few hours of the attorneys time. I don't even know what patent attorneys charge these days for hourly consultation but I would guess $250 an hour. If I decided to write my own I would have no problem paying an attorney $750 to review and offer suggestions.

Is game paytable copyright protection subject?
It is mostly math and pay numbers
If yes, how to find it?
Do you have examples please.