Can a roulette dealer deliberately influence where the ball will land?

Ok, decided to start this thread after discussing it a bit in one of the Dice Influencing threads.

There were a few links put up that i'm not buying. This is one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvKDHjucEaE

My position is that it's not possible for a dealer to have any control or any deliberate influence on where the ball will land when spinning it. I'd like to hear other opinions on it...

All depends what size chips you are laying out, in other words with any doubt the answer is yes.

I use to play the game, I've heard the comments, been on the receiving end, if they want to take you down, they can and will do and it won't be via taking 2.7% from you.
casino pro dealer

ONE thing is certain.

Anytime you find a croupier knowing in advance what numbers will be coming up, YOU are not going to get anywhere near the table because his wife, sister, brother, best friend and neighbor are all going to be sitting there.

If they are NOT sitting there, then he doesn't have the skill.

I was a dealer once at a casino in Brighton, England. I was already a poker player, blackjack card counter so I spent most of my 6-8 week training just learning to spin the ball with both hands as the two roulette tables were back to back.So to amuse myself I always started the spin on the zero and tried to spin consistently. So IF the wheel was at the same speed you could go pretty close to the last number or its neighbors.I think an expert dealer could get this right.

I remember one night I was on roulette and a guy started betting my last number and two either side. He won about a thousand in 20 minutes.I went on break when I returned he had lost it back.

I didn't stay long as it was a hard lifestyle to adopt.Working 8pm to 4am sometimes 6am if you did a count.I was leaving for work when my friends were going out to dinner or to concerts. In England tipping wasn't allowed so most people took advantage of the free training then applied for jobs on cruise ships or in Amsterdam.

It can be done. If you get an extremely consistent spin (usually fairly slow) and you slow down the wheel a good amount [so when the ball hits the wheel, it doesn't shoot out]. A consistent spin is where you spin the ball around the wheel the same amount of times (maybe 5 or 8 revolutions), and the ball drops right between the weird crosses in the same location on the wheel.

I don't think a dealer can hit a specific number guaranteed or be very likely to hit it. But all you need is a section of probably 5-6 numbers and be able to hit that section rather frequently.

Thanks for the responses, very interesting.

I'm very skeptical about this, hence the thread. Like Fleastiff said, if a dealer was able to do this, they'd have their family and friends cleaning up. And if this was the case, i don't think Roulette would be a viable game anymore due to this. Since Roulette is still offered, I can only conclude it isn't possible.

CyrusV; Not really sure what you mean, the chips have nothing to do with this.

Several years ago I was invited to a demonstration of a dealer targeting four slots on a wheel. This was at a major strip casino.

I dated a dealer who told me she could do it, though I never saw her do it.

Quote: ShineyShine

There were a few links put up that i'm not buying. This is one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvKDHjucEaE

What's there in the video not to buy? It's pretty straightforward and legit.

The trick, however, is the wheel itself needs to have a consistent drop zone (the ball needs to hit and exit primarily on one or two of the pins) and consistent scatter/ball jump. If he's good, like the person from the video he can adjust predictions for rotor speed or just keep it consistent as well.
In reality such wheels are rarity nowadays in real casinos and get gradually replaced with new ones.

It is impossible for a croupier to spin the wheel in one direction and roll the ball in the other and even hit 1/2 of the combinations with any consistency at all--if, over 15 or so spins of the ball is achieved, which is the standard procedure that I have witnessed in Vegas.

At some length of spin or throw of the dice, other factors very quickly take over completely. Even the same spin or throw won't help you. At a lot nearer than a mile, of course. You could shoot dice through a doughnut at 100 feet, but knowing which faces go through first is another matter all together. A qualitative versus quantitative matter. Same as counting cards, which is the latter, and hence is feasible.

Ask a first year physics teacher's assistant of the corresponding lab half-credit course. The bit about trying to redesign simple inclined paths with automatic laser-beam clock (to precisely measure different types of starting and stopping) to reduce and compare the errors in results. We're talking logarithmic changes in error over various starts and lengths of paths, the error growing 10X, 100X, 1000X... over successive intervals.

The equipment designers know the limits on their devices. You'd have to remove a bearing from today's wheels to create a worthwhile bias.

People complain after two minutes in a line, but will spend their lives looking for Elvis online instead of just asking certain persons who might know how to nip all of this in the bud.

The casinos don't even put a prize on the wheel.

Quote: ShineyShine

CyrusV; Not really sure what you mean, the chips have nothing to do with this.

Yes they do. If you bet small they aren't going to bother, if you're spreading black on the felt, they can and will take you down.

All decent sized casinos will have the resident "house burner" on standby just in case. As for the family and friends remarks, nope that doesn't wash, they are risking their job / license if it becomes know, that's a step too far, they wouldn't risk their livelihood, same reason they have to declare and usually turn down all social invitations with punters.

Fair bit of naivety, start winning a decent amount consistently in a medium sized casino and see what happens.

Quote: RS

I don't think a dealer can hit a specific number guaranteed or be very likely to hit it. But all you need is a section of probably 5-6 numbers and be able to hit that section rather frequently.

On the older high scallop wheels the more experienced croupiers can do it.

Quote: CyrusV

Yes they do. If you bet small they aren't going to bother, if you're spreading black on the felt, they can and will take you down.

All decent sized casinos will have the resident "house burner" on standby just in case.

So you really think the casinos have specially trained dealers, or a "house burner" as you put it, that can hit certain sections of the wheel just to "take you down"?

The only way this would happen i reckon is a bent casino, and bent wheel. Nothing to do with the question i'm asking.

Working on the Table Games audit and just checked the employee list and no "house burner" is present. Maybe many years ago something like this could happen with the older wheels but I think even then it was actually a gaffed wheel that performed the cheat and not the dealer. Of course I work for a medium to small casino so maybe a larger store would but really don't think so. I am more worried about the Caro roulette system.

Quote: ShineyShine

So you really think the casinos have specially trained dealers, or a "house burner" as you put it, that can hit certain sections of the wheel just to "take you down"?

The only way this would happen i reckon is a bent casino, and bent wheel. Nothing to do with the question i'm asking.

Silly. The casinos don't train the dealers to target certain sections of the wheel. The dealers develop this skill on their own.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The dealers develop this skill on their own.

And the manufacturers of the games are going to invest millions of dollars on research, design, production and sales, only to watch a competitor move in and do it properly the first time around. On the other hand, I guess having gone out with a dealer proves otherwise.

Keep dreaming, it's "the gift which just keeps giving".

Quote: AlanMendelson

Silly.

Like that Wikipedia article link posted by MathExtremist a while back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaemons

Yeah, sure, they shut their charitable organization down right away after years of preparation and only $10,000 in winnings - so they claim - because someone wouldn't stop burning themselves on the chest with the sensor.

Just a bit shy of the laughter of reading ME's "resume" in Axel's Employment thread.

In case you missed my first post in this thread I was at a demonstration at a major casino where it was done.

Don't be so naive.

The only people who win at roulette are the people who place their bets after the ball has been rolled. Play sectors and you'll be wiped out in no time.

Quote: AlanMendelson

In case you missed my first post in this thread I was at a demonstration at a major casino where it was done.

Don't be so naive.

What proof have you offered? None.

What analysis have you offered? None.

What logical reasoning for this have you offered? None.

Can you do it? No.

How often was it done? Who knows.

Don't you be so naive.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

Like that Wikipedia article link posted by MathExtremist a while back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaemons

Yeah, sure, they shut their charitable organization down right away after years of preparation and only $10,000 in winnings - so they claim - because someone wouldn't stop burning themselves on the chest with the sensor.

Just a bit shy of the laughter of reading ME's "resume" in Axel's Employment thread.

If you haven't read the book, it's hard to have a credible comment on the Eudaemons' motivations. Money doesn't motivate everyone. Thorp wasn't motivated by money either.

And I don't recall posting my resume but I'm always happy to provide some much-needed mirth.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Several years ago I was invited to a demonstration of a dealer targeting four slots on a wheel. This was at a major strip casino.

What did you think of this demonstration? Did it seem legit? Was the dealer able to successfully do it?

One of the funniest threads in a long time.
Bigfoot, unicorns, and roulette dealers who
can consistently predict where the will land.

Best comments are from people who have
'seen it with their own eyes'. LOL

Quote: EvenBob

One of the funniest threads in a long time.
Bigfoot, unicorns, and roulette dealers who
can consistently predict where the will land.

Best comments are from people who have
'seen it with their own eyes'. LOL

Not 'predict' where the ball will land; knowingly influence or deliberately aim.

Prediction of the where the ball will land is a separate issue, as in ME's Eudaemons example. I think prediction of where the ball land via a mobile phone was used in a London casino a few years back, and those involved were charged, but i cant find any links to that case. That i believe is possible.

Edit; Think i found the case...

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/mar/23/sciencenews.crime

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

What proof have you offered? None.

What analysis have you offered? None.

What logical reasoning for this have you offered? None.

Can you do it? No.

How often was it done? Who knows.

Don't you be so naive.

I can't reveal the casino. Those of you who know me know why I can't.

I never said I can do it.

How often was it done? Enough that those of us in attendance will never say it can't be done.

Quote: ShineyShine

What did you think of this demonstration? Did it seem legit? Was the dealer able to successfully do it?

As I said the dealer was able to hit a group of four adjacent slots. We took turns requesting which grouping we wanted him to hit.

Not sure where all the non believing is coming from.

As it can be seen in the OP link the person is hitting it pretty consistent and the ball is making 18-20 rounds.
There is dozens of videos from this same person, no cutting as well, which show the same concept and he is a legit roulette AP. Whether this is possible in real casino environment nowadays is a whole different question.

The catch is the wheel has to be vary favorable for this to work (drop zone and scatter). Not to many, if any out there today.

Quote: CyrusV

they are risking their job / license if it becomes know, that's a step too far, they wouldn't risk their livelihood,

Good point. Why would a casino risk losing their license and livelihood by offering a game that wasn't fair over a measly black chip (that they would probably earn back anyway if the game wasn't rigged)?

Quote: ShineyShine

Not 'predict' where the ball will land; knowingly influence or deliberately aim.

Prediction of the where the ball will land is a separate issue, as in ME's Eudaemons example. I think prediction of where the ball land via a mobile phone was used in a London casino a few years back, and those involved were charged, but i cant find any links to that case. That i believe is possible.

Edit; Think i found the case...

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/mar/23/sciencenews.crime

This is the first post that was correctly blocked for quoting someone that was blocked.

So AWESOME!

Thanks for FIXING IT!

Now EB can go back to "killing boars" on WOVRPG (and being quoted in his quest for experience points) without bugging me.

Quote: ShineyShine

Thanks for the responses, very interesting.

I'm very skeptical about this, hence the thread. Like Fleastiff said, if a dealer was able to do this, they'd have their family and friends cleaning up. And if this was the case, i don't think Roulette would be a viable game anymore due to this. Since Roulette is still offered, I can only conclude it isn't possible.

Now I did not say it was not "possible"...the casino forces the croupier to look at a specific place on the layout prior to releasing the bass, not at the wheel. this lets the casino owner sleep at night because he doesn't have to worry whether the croupier actually has the skill and can do it again and again...... the casino forces croupiers to follow the rules and all those eyes watching everyone are watching for deviations from procedures.

No pockets means its gonna be real difficult to use wax irrespective of whether the croupier knows how to use it.

No looking at the wheel five seconds prior to ball release means its difficult even if the croupier has the skill.

alternating size of ball each spin makes it more difficult to hit a specific number.

alternating hands makes it more difficult to hit a specific number.

so even a croupier "can"... is inclined to give it a try, he is not likely to gain the opportunity and he is being watched for any unusual procedures.

Quote: FleaStiff

Now I did not say it was not "possible"...the casino forces the croupier to look at a specific place on the layout prior to releasing the bass, not at the wheel. this lets the casino owner sleep at night because he doesn't have to worry whether the croupier actually has the skill and can do it again and again...... the casino forces croupiers to follow the rules and all those eyes watching everyone are watching for deviations from procedures.

No pockets means its gonna be real difficult to use wax irrespective of whether the croupier knows how to use it.

No looking at the wheel five seconds prior to ball release means its difficult even if the croupier has the skill.

alternating size of ball each spin makes it more difficult to hit a specific number.

alternating hands makes it more difficult to hit a specific number.

so even a croupier "can"... is inclined to give it a try, he is not likely to gain the opportunity and he is being watched for any unusual procedures.

If the dealer can, so too might the student of so-called visual ballistics (or anyone dumb enough to carry a roulette computer). But those aren't viable either.

The casinos "sleep at night" because they know that no one is going to win logarithmically successive big wins. No one is going to million fold his money because they would (and do) throw you out long before that. The reason that "knowledgeable" persons only write opportunistic books about it, and open gambling forums to advertise it. However, the manufacturers of the games do because, like the casinos, they get it right the first time.

Let's not get carried away here.

Yes some have the skill. It doesn't mean it's used.

Frankly if the casino has rules for the release of the ball it would negate the skill.

What I saw was a demonstration in a controlled environment with no money at risk. It was a demonstration -- period.

Again don't get carried away with conspiracy theories or anything else.

Quote: MathExtremist

If you haven't read the book, it's hard to have a credible comment on the Eudaemons' motivations. Money doesn't motivate everyone. Thorp wasn't motivated by money either.

And I don't recall posting my resume but I'm always happy to provide some much-needed mirth.

Some funny stuff in there.

Quote: TomG

Good point. Why would a casino risk losing their license and livelihood by offering a game that wasn't fair over a measly black chip (that they would probably earn back anyway if the game wasn't rigged)?

OMG the nativity prevails, casinos don't risk their license over anything, it is not like an enterprise which provides thousands of local jobs, pays huge amounts in taxes is all of a sudden going to be shut down over some minor indiscretion and there is queue of conglomerates waiting in the wings to pump in millions to take over. No rather it is wet bus ticket over wrist, small fine as it's been the case with the Crown casino in Melbourne who has been caught short changing punters on more than one occasion over recent years (deck rigging).

The usual blinkered statement is often spouted, "risk losing license" and what put possibly 10,000 locals on the dole queue for the brief period while the relevant gambling authority consult their list of potential casino operators who are ready to walk in and take over at a moments notice, reality is not like that. Who said over anything over a measly black chip?? A measly black chip can return $3,500 which is not measly to a lot of gambling joints.

Was in a casino a few years back with a friend, we had ceased playing and were making small talk with the dealer. The ball hits zero, nothing special in that, he then says, "now I'm going to spin 007, because it's been a few years since I've done it", next number to hit, zero, "now here comes the 7", unfortunately the ball hit 7 but bounce one pocket out, I'm sure on another occasion he would have done it. Wasn't surprised in the least, my friend was a bit shocked.

There was a court case in German about 15~20yrs back, a wealthy player who wasn't betting at the time, was challenging a croupier to hit sections, numbers. Then he decided to play, eventually losing he took court action stating the dealer deliberately spun against him. Huxley's reps were flown over and called as expert witnesses, the judge concluded, it was indeed possible for the croupier to target the ball, however the plaintiff wasn't able to prove it was done specifically at that time, he lost the case.

I could ream off plenty experiences of croupiers desperately analysing the marquee (because I started placing bets after ball release or switching placed bets after ball release, like some horrendous battle of wits, never mind just battling a 2.7% HE), you folk who don't subscribe weren't there, you have your own beliefs and just like me, I didn't believe when I was told over 15yrs ago. I had to experience it first hand, had to be on the receiving end.

You had to have been there, hearing the comments, the pit-boss telling the new dealer who suddenly appeared to put the ball on a specific number (one of my losing numbers). I was waiting to see if he got anywhere near it, in which case I would have switched tables, unfortunately that wasn't the case, he did first spin, one of many tales, dealers openly gloating, I won't bore you with the details.

Suffice to say, where and when I played is unlike the US, tipping not allowed, which provides lots of incentives for dealers to behave as they do, jealousy a big factor, you're risking, winning per spin more than they make in a day, week. Loyalty to their employer is another. Some ethnic dealers think it is a pathway to promotion!! Where I frequent the casino used to run a very dubious "employee of the month" scheme, were the winners shall we say. well looked after receiving expensive jewellery , a big portion of being chosen was also referred to as "being good for the house", meaning what exactly?

Up your gaming chips, get ahead a few thou', do that often and observe the changes around you.

Quote: EvenBob

Best comments are from people who have
'seen it with their own eyes'. LOL

"A picture is worth a thousand words, but it takes 10,000 to verify it."

I guess certain persons feel important or that they impress others, or live vicariously, on such nonsense. It happens, and I've seen it too. A dealer says, "Hey, the shift is over, let me predict this last spin." It hits. Most of us shrug it off. But a few just can't. Suddenly a whole new world opens up from which they can justify their gambling addictions to new heights. The number one symptom of gambling addiction, this "belief" in the control of spooky actions at a distance. Alan has, if I recall, made similarly spurious "observations" with two or three craps shooters he met a couple of times. Followed up again with the baloney, "It's true, but you had to be there to see it for yourself." Were you really there, Alan? Do you understand what you "think" you saw? It's irresponsible to perpetuate such stuff online with no attempt at proof, let alone with more of the same sensationalism. You're some sort of reporter? At least you've continued to be so obviously misinformed. Removed stories entirely of the past, which couldn't be further investigated or reproduced if anyone wanted to.

Scientists used to strongly believe in something called Positivism. The belief that only what we see and understand exists. That every single mite of dust must be traceable at any given moment, beginning with some predetermined boundary conditions of the universe. Grandiose. It failed miserably. And it fails even more miserably here with gambling addiction. Most gamblers "think" that less proof is better than more. But, it's the other way around. More proof is required because gambling is controversial and shady by nature. With all the hush-hush, conspiracy, and "Oh, I broke even (not even after the comps)" stuff, who to believe? Who even knows what they saw? Surely, no casino in the history of casinos has offered a "demonstration" of cheating or the fallibility of its games.

Which casino? Who cares, it doesn't matter. Casinos don't leave any meat on the bone. The reason that AP's go on about what they're doing, and how much money they're making in the process. Pathetic. Stupid and stupider. Perhaps, demo-AP's draw a salary after demo-school and a demo-diploma? Standing on the feet all day in front of busy roulette tables isn't tiring enough, that they feel compelled to spend their evenings practising demos in the basement.

Why not ask the scientists, the manufacturers, or even Myth Busters? If you ask the Alans, it's a secret that everyone else supposedly already knows, or should already know. If you don't know it, why, then you're naive as heck. I guess, in for a penny, in for a pound. The only route left to glory is the easy one to everything. More stone than rosetta at that point. California dream'n in California. Positivism to the infinite degree. Cutting of your nose to spite your face. Why can't these people ask someone in the real world, and then use the information gleaned to do what they can about it? The world doesn't need better mouse-traps.

Sure, the casinos go to great lengths to "wash", shuffle, and conceal the cards, but then leave the craps and roulette tables conspicuously vulnerable. Cameras up the watusi then, just to watch Alan's mystery "friends" take them to the cleaners. No, it's so much easier to randomize the qualitative aspects of gambling then to unravel those from the other end of the table. For every hitch in a roulette or craps table, it takes another thousand computers to unravel it. To the point that no number of computers can ever make any difference. Like shuffling a deck of cards, it's doesn't take a lot of shuffling to completely randomize the cards. You could continue to shuffle to infinity, but it won't make things any more random. Why is that? (On the other hand, it's easier to read the quantitative, such as the composition of a shoe of cards, than to completely randomize it by adding more decks. Like it's best to just shut up at the poker tables.)

AP's are like system-sellers. They should go away and play their own systems if those are so good. And deny what they're doing. If they want the casinos to think there are no AP's, then they should shut up. But they don't. They can't do even that. You have to wonder what some people do for fun, the ones who take the silliness so seriously as to try to make a livelihood of it. Serious gambling is problem gambling. AP's are the same as the System Players with the, egs, "Oh, we're so polite, so we must all be professional," and "Oh, let's go it alone in the PM's now that the forum is dying of believers."

Seen this before, and the other hundred psychological indicators that come with it in chronological order, on another half dozen gambling forums over the years. I guess you had to be there for that too, Alan. And actually have tried to make some sense of it so that it doesn't all come off as more gibberish.

Never seen anybody do it under real playing
conditions except by accident.

Quote: CyrusV

Up your gaming chips, get ahead a few thou', do that often and observe the changes around you.

You're supposed to lose in a casino. And not always just before you get up to leave.

Nothing out of the ordinary here either. Only surprised that more weird stuff doesn't happen in a casino.

Quote: CyrusV

it is not like an enterprise which provides thousands of local jobs, pays huge amounts in taxes is all of a sudden going to be shut down over some minor indiscretion

A rigged game is not minor. If it was known that the games at the casino were not fair, enough customers would stay far enough way to ensure plenty of job loss and lost tax revenue.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they require a lot of conspirators to all remain quiet. Many of whom have no incentive to do so; some of whom even have an incentive to shed light on it. Yet not a single one will ever speak up.

Hell, I would offer big action to anyone who things they can do it and wants to a chance to prove it (like more than a years salary for an average Las Vegas table games dealer). Why will no one ever take me up on that?

Quote: TomG

A rigged game is not minor. If it was known that the games at the casino were not fair, enough customers would stay far enough way to ensure plenty of job loss and lost tax revenue.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they require a lot of conspirators to all remain quiet. Many of whom have no incentive to do so; some of whom even have an incentive to shed light on it. Yet not a single one will ever speak up.

Hell, I would offer big action to anyone who things they can do it and wants to a chance to prove it (like more than a years salary for an average Las Vegas table games dealer). Why will no one ever take me up on that?

Hold onto your money. Conspiracies aren't rare.

There's one unfolding with the Canadian federal government in court as I write this. About many of the senators having looted the taxpayers through personal expense accounts. Duffy isn't even one of the bigger players. Others are awaiting trials or are under investigation for illegal expenses in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Duffy was the one to turn on his own team, and expose everything, after the cover-up and pay-offs in his own case went sour with him internally. I'll say it again, the only time the rich and cops take real action is when it's against one of their own (against them, or bringing the rest of them down.)

Ninety staffers were involved in the Prime Minister's Office with rewriting auditor reports, including the Prime Minister's top aides. The case has been dragging on to unheard of lengths in the courts. The Prime Minister still denies any previous knowledge or involvement. And in the middle of an election. Lol. Go google it.

As for casino and other conspiracies, insiders rarely come forward. Why would they. They would never work in a casino anywhere again. And, the players are so addicted that they are afraid of being banned by making waves. I can personally vouch for that, having successfully sued a major casino in civil court for cheating. Local legal firms won't take the case because they will lose the advertising and other casino business. But anyone of them take the casino's case in a heartbeat.

The problem with conspiracies come to light is that rich corporations and governments have them down graded in the courts and press to the honest mistakes and misunderstandings noted by MathExtremist in his quote of Goethe. "Procedural errors." The irony is that though we live in an increasingly complex world, creepier things happen. Sometimes, the more we strive for scholastic and ethical integrity, the more we go afield. Not exactly best intentions after all. Look at where the thousands of pages of debate ended up on this forum alone. What was really determined? I don't remember any of them in particular off hand. Conspiracy of a different sort? Reminds me of BeatTheCasino forum of die hard scammers. People got sucked in, fiercely supported it themselves, lost all their money before they got to the casino, and dropped out of sight. A few of us tried to help set a lot of people there straight, got little to no thanks for, and those people just dropped off the internet radar. Similarly simple for teams of lawyers to work stuff over. Eg, people who take GM to court can expect tens of years of slugging it out, win, and still be portrayed badly if much at all in the media. It's business as usual the next day. The little guys have too much to worry about with day to day survival. Pay the bill and forget at it. "Cat's in the Cradle." Judges have to rule on the side of business because economies would collapse otherwise. But, people still buy GM cars and trucks. People still support governments. And, in turn, governments, and the rich they front for, still screw over the people.

But, this is definitely one topic in which a person has to be in such a situation firsthand to see what's what. Most people go merrily along forever without experiencing the underlying gritty social fabric and gnarly community infrastructure which ultimately binds us all. Things can turn on a dime. In some countries, it's the difference between feeding the birds in the park one day, and waking up to (martial law) tanks rolling up the road the next.

As with Alan in the other thread, you're going to have to take my word for it. Not interested in going through and posting bails of court arguments, endorsements and other documents. Been there, done that. More wrangling.


Edit: "Ninety staffers" was what I thought I heard on the radio. Maybe it was nine. Who knows.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

As for casino and other conspiracies, insiders rarely come forward. Why would they?

I know several people who have earned significant income, some even from playing casino games, including some in the millions. Most any of them would be willing to wager a significant amount against a roulette dealer being able to influence the game. So to answer your question: A huge payoff would definitely a compelling reason to come forward. Yet there is not a single roulette dealer who will ever accept that action.

Quote: TomG

Yet there is not a single roulette dealer who will ever accept that action.

Exactly.

I can only tell you what my friend who worked roulette for 40 hours a week told me. He was very confident that he could make the ball fall into a quarter of the wheel most of the time. He stated that he would never do that because he would eventually lose his job. God rest his soul as he passed at 51.

Quote: Commish

I can only tell you what my friend who worked roulette for 40 hours a week told me. He was very confident that he could make the ball fall into a quarter of the wheel most of the time. He stated that he would never do that because he would eventually lose his job. God rest his soul as he passed at 51.

The Captain is dead as well.

Go figure, anyone who could do such interesting things are either dead or refuse to actually prove anything.

I do believe a skilled roulette dealer can influence where the ball will land with some success, especially if he only has to target half the wheel.

I don't think under normal playing conditions someone could "make the ball fall into a quarter of the wheel most of the time." It would very hard to spot or prove if done right. If someone with that skill found the right partners who weren't obvious and greedy. If they were patient and willing to pick their spots. This would be extremely dangerous to casinos.


Maybe under extremely controlled conditions (looking a a very slow moving wheel) he could do fairly well.

Just like athletes doing tricks during practice, it's a whole different game during a supervised regulated game.

Out of 100 spins what success rate, landing in the specified quarter, would you want to make you mostly confident that it was skill and not randomness?

Depends on how certain you want to be. There are reasonable formulae in statistics that answer precisely that question.

Assuming that by "quarter" you mean a continuous zone of 9 numbers, then:

On a European (single zero) wheel, if he succeeds more than 32 times to send the ball into the zone, there is less than 5% chance that it was due to chance. If you accept that 5% of the cases accepting the claim as valid whereas it really is not so, then that is the number to go by. If you want to be 99% sure of his claim of skill, he needs to land the ball in the desired section at least 36 times out of 100.
For the American (double zero) wheel, using same zone size (9 numbers), you would need over 31/over 34 successes for landing the ball in a continuous 9-pocket region out of 100 trials, if successful, then it's demonstrated at the 95% and 99% confidence level respectively.

Just my two eurocents

Quote: quinyu

Depends on how certain you want to be. There are reasonable formulae in statistics that answer precisely that question.

Assuming that by "quarter" you mean a continuous zone of 9 numbers, then:

On a European (single zero) wheel, if he succeeds more than 32 times to send the ball into the zone, there is less than 5% chance that it was due to chance. If you accept that 5% of the cases accepting the claim as valid whereas it really is not so, then that is the number to go by. If you want to be 99% sure of his claim of skill, he needs to land the ball in the desired section at least 36 times out of 100.
For the American (double zero) wheel, using same zone size (9 numbers), you would need over 31/over 34 successes for landing the ball in a continuous 9-pocket region out of 100 trials, if successful, then it's demonstrated at the 95% and 99% confidence level respectively.

Just my two eurocents

Now I understand why the Euro is falling.

Quote: citrusc77

Now I understand why the Euro is falling.

Quinyu,

Please disregard this rude comment. I doubt you found it humorous. Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the information.

I've only knowingly met one roulette pro in 20+ years.
Others APs have said that "roulette pros" are the most quiet & private of the gambling pros.

The pro that I met bet 2/3-3/4 of the numbers after ball release (choosing 1/4-1/3 of the wheel to leave uncovered).
...and I have no idea how truthful the pro was (could have been making up stories).

It was quite impressive to see him put chips on so many numbers so quickly.

...rather than ask people whether they can hit a 9-number section of the roulette wheel, how about hitting a 28-32 number section (and missing a 6-10 number area)?

----
P.S. I've never met anyone who would admit to using devices to win at roulette.

Single zero wheel: hitting a 28-number section needs at least 83 successes out of 100 to be at the 95% confidence level that it's better than just your odds; and at least 85 at the 99% confidence level. On a double zero wheel, at least 81 successes at the 95% confidence level, and 84 successes at the 99% confidence level. As you can see, this is an "almost every time" call already, since the area is so large part of a wheel - it is difficult to call anything happening less frequently statistically significant. The numbers are higher for the 32-number section: 92, 94 for single zero wheel and 90, 92 out of 100 for a double zero wheel.

As you see, at this broad range, very many results can still be up to randomness. And similarly, if you're monitoring for "dead regions" on wheels, these are the levels you need to think about, if you'd want to be reasonably certain they exist - and you only tolerate 5% or 1% odds that your judgement is wrong. On a well-maintained wheel, no chance. On sloppy ones... well, the small casino that I went to, two days after I started going there, I was called over by one of the employees and told to actually explain him what I was doing. I told him what I found, both with numbers as well as showing him that the edge of the wheel was visibly wobbling (at a fixed place). Yesterday, the whole thing was dismounted and wrench monkeys were all over it. Oh well. Got more out in drinks and snacks than I ever put in that machine -- beating the casino the right way :P