Can Roulette Be Beaten?
Quote: EvenBobI have no intention of spending every day in smelly casinos, how appalling would that be. Pro gambling has never interested me in the least, each to his own I guess. I watch those zipper heads on the poker channels and wonder 'how many books have these guys read since grade school'. No thanks.
fine, fine. Can you send your friend my email address?
Quote: EnvyBonusIs there some meaning to that term other than a racial slur?
You have got to be joking. There is now a race of people thats slurred by the term 'zipper head'? You got me, who did I offend? 30 years ago it meant a clueless person. Thats how I meant it. It meant things zipped right over their heads.
Quote: Nareedfine, fine. Can you send your friend my email address?
He hasn't got a computer, I doubt if he ever will, hates the things. I have to call him to talk, imagine that. Its so antiquated.
Quote: EvenBobYou have got to be joking. There is now a race of people thats slurred by the term 'zipper head'? You got me, who did I offend? 30 years ago it meant a clueless person. Thats how I meant it. It meant things zipped right over their heads.
Yup, sure enough, GI Joes used the term in Vietnam. Never heard that before. So no, I wasn't referring to the players as being Vietnamese. Just thought I'd clear that up, was never in the military. Sorry if I offended.
Quote: EvenBobYou have got to be joking. There is now a race of people thats slurred by the term 'zipper head'? You got me, who did I offend? 30 years ago it meant a clueless person. Thats how I meant it. It meant things zipped right over their heads.
No, I was not joking. It is considered derogatory when referring to people of Asian descent. Judging from your posts I did not think you meant it in a derogatory way, but I was unfamiliar with any other meaning. Please don't think I was trying to start something, but after a google search I still couldn't find the meaning you intended, so I had to ask.
Quote: EnvyBonusNo, I was not joking. It is considered derogatory when referring to people of Asian descent. Judging from your posts I did not think you meant it in a derogatory way, but I was unfamiliar with any other meaning. Please don't think I was trying to start something, but after a google search I still couldn't find the meaning you intended, so I had to ask.
We heard the term in the 70's and used it for everything, I don't think most people knew its origin. It sounds like a catch-all phrase for people who are kinda dumb. My Uncle called us 'stumpheads' when we were kids, I wonder who he was offending. He was from West Virginia and it sounded like 'stump-haid' when he said it.
Quote: JerryLoganOf course it's easy trying to spot someone attempting to "influence" the dice. But any assertion that someone actually thinks they're making 7's come out less because of some scientific throw to exactly the same spot in exactly the same way as before, is complete nonsense and not worthy of gaming discussion. All Stanford Wong did when he "created" this myth is put together a plan to (yawn) sell more books on yet another subject because he could not beat any casino game.
All I am saying is I can see where it can be theoretically possible based onb very limited trials. Change the pobability from one 7 per six rolls to one per 7, or in other words get one of the throws I made once every six rolls, and you flip the house edge to a player edge assuming the other throws stay random. You can believe it, you can disbelieve it, or you can thin it is as good as anything--but it is absolutely worhty of serious discussion.
Quote: AZDuffmanAll I am saying is I can see where it can be theoretically possible based onb very limited trials. Change the pobability from one 7 per six rolls to one per 7, or in other words get one of the throws I made once every six rolls, and you flip the house edge to a player edge assuming the other throws stay random. You can believe it, you can disbelieve it, or you can thin it is as good as anything--but it is absolutely worhty of serious discussion.
Understood. But how in this world or any other is anyone going to make a 7 "appear" any more than it would normally? It cannot be done. If someone who touts this "dice-influencing" wants to bet me $10,000 that they can make snake eyes come out on two consecutive rolls before my eyes, I'll believe they are influencing dice at that point. Claiming they're influencing them with 7's would be just coincidence since it is such a common number anyway.
Quote: JerryLoganUnderstood. But how in this world or any other is anyone going to make a 7 "appear" any more than it would normally? It cannot be done. If someone who touts this "dice-influencing" wants to bet me $10,000 that they can make snake eyes come out on two consecutive rolls before my eyes, I'll believe they are influencing dice at that point. Claiming they're influencing them with 7's would be just coincidence since it is such a common number anyway.
That would be a silly bet since:
1. The idea is "influence," not control. No one who practices dice influence believes you can say you will shoot a hard eight and bam it happens.
2. Two trials is not enough time to prove anything.
In class I threw like a dice controller would and had the longest rolls of the class most nights. A couple of the ladies in class said t quit "hogging" the dice. Of course my reply was that I couldn't control not getting a 7 :-)
Not scientific I know, but shaking them in your hand, the pyrimids on the alligator, and hitting the table all are meant to add to the randomness. Limit each factror and you logically at least might limit the randomness. At the least it is more fun to do than to just shake and throw them, or worse yet yell at the darkside bettor who just ordered a 7&7 from the cocktail waitress.
Quote: EvenBobHe hasn't got a computer, I doubt if he ever will, hates the things. I have to call him to talk, imagine that. Its so antiquated.
I'm convinced now: as real as the goose that lays the golden eggs.
On other things, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I may be persuaded to sell....
Quote: JerryLogan"Influencing" dice is like saying you can throw a rock into the ocean and influence where and how it will hit...and land. All that is is a good "effort". It makes sense that Wong would come up with a myth using the number "7" because that's the number that rolls the most. If I were a pit boss and saw someone trying to use that method I'd have the player tossed simply for acting stupid in front of others.
Well its not really like that at all, its more like trowing a rock and attempting to not getting it to land a certain way. What you describe is trying to throw a specific number, not avoiding a specific number.
That said, I'm not convinced that dice influencing is possible....is it possible by the laws of physics? Absolutely. But can humans actually acheive it, that's doubtful.
Quote: NareedI'm convinced now: as real as the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Because he doesn't have a computer? Lots of old guys don't have computers, it means nothing. He tried it once and didn't like it. I know a guy who's 74 an has had one for 8 years and all he can do is email. He's terrified of it, its hilarious to watch him use it. He's afraid he'll break it, so he reads hs email once a day and leaves it alone.
Quote: EvenBobBecause he doesn't have a computer?
And because he can "beat" a random game consistently in amysterious way.
If you're not interested in the bridge, I also have some Christian relics from 100 BC.
Quote: ruascottWell its not really like that at all, its more like trowing a rock and attempting to not getting it to land a certain way. What you describe is trying to throw a specific number, not avoiding a specific number.
That said, I'm not convinced that dice influencing is possible....is it possible by the laws of physics? Absolutely. But can humans actually acheive it, that's doubtful.
I'd put that in the "6 in one/half dozen in the other" category.
Of course it's doubtful. And when you look at Wong's history you clearly see just another gambler who wants others to believe he wins all the time, then wants everyone to believe he gets banned. In reality, all he's doing is coming up with more ideas to write books and sell things for an income because he's never been successful at the casinos. It's very obvious. Why else would anybody come up with such a stupid concept that cannot be accomplished, even on the moon?
Quote: ruascottThat said, I'm not convinced that dice influencing is possible....is it possible by the laws of physics? Absolutely. But can humans actually acheive it, that's doubtful.
But that's the EXACT point! Bravo!! You can't throw a 100 mph fastball at the All Star game, therefore David Price can't either!
Quote: JerryLoganOf course it's doubtful. And when you look at Wong's history you clearly see just another gambler who wants others to believe he wins all the time, then wants everyone to believe he gets banned. In reality, all he's doing is coming up with more ideas to write books and sell things for an income because he's never been successful at the casinos. It's very obvious. Why else would anybody come up with such a stupid concept that cannot be accomplished, even on the moon?
This is of course where you show you don't know jack about Wong. He is 86'd by most Vegas casinos because he took too much of their money. His books are some of the best out there even if he can no longer use them. His dice book, "Wong on Dice", told of taking some money and how it was done. He is not skilled enough to do it consistently but had a friend, who does, write a follow up book, "The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible" Proper research is key to finding and exploiting all opportunities in all areas of gaming. Anybody can shoot from the lip.
Quote: DeMangoThis is of course where you show you don't know jack about Wong. He is 86'd by most Vegas casinos because he took too much of their money. His books are some of the best out there even if he can no longer use them. His dice book, "Wong on Dice", told of taking some money and how it was done. He is not skilled enough to do it consistently but had a friend, who does, write a follow up book, "The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible" Proper research is key to finding and exploiting all opportunities in all areas of gaming. Anybody can shoot from the lip.
Pure BS. You say he's been banned because HE says he's been banned, and he says he's been banned because it sells books that are his source of income. I read about him in the paper in LV about 5 years ago. They had a reporter go up & down the Strip asking if he was banned from playing like he claimed in his publications, and it was 100% NO. Not a one. But he'll go on making unsupportable, refuted claims because it's a marketing scheme for his sales, and a certain segment will believe him without verification of any kind anyway. You want to worship at the alter of Wong then have at it and give him your money. THAT'S what he's all about.
Quote: NareedWe should all go to the Mythbusters forum and press them to bust the dice control myth.
Great idea!
Quote: ruascottI'm not convinced that dice influencing is possible....is it possible by the laws of physics? Absolutely. But can humans actually acheive it, that's doubtful.
I posit that, just as there are some gifted with the ability to perform complicated mathematical calculations in their head, play complex music without seeing anything on paper, or long jump 8.9+ meters, there may be individuals who can observe roulette's variables (wheel position, rotation speed, ball speed, etc.) and narrow down the possible outcomes to less than half the possible numbers, quickly enough to place a wager. Not that someone is doing it, but that it may be possible.
Roulette is unique in the casino, in that the variables affecting the outcome are all visible, and in motion, before a wager needs to be made.
Quote: DeMangoThey had a reporter go up and down the strip? And talk to who, security, pit bosses,q]
I don't think so. Ever try and get info about a security issue from a Vegas pit? They can't and won't tell you anything. Nobody in the casino will tell you anything. Even if they knew who Wong was, and most of them wouldn't, they couldn't and wouldn't tell you if he was banned. Try it, if you're in Vegas go and ask any pit person a specific question about who's banned, they won't tell you jack."It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Quote: DeMangoThis is of course where you show you don't know jack about Wong. He is 86'd by most Vegas casinos because he took too much of their money.
Baloney. There is a similar myth about Ed thorp, author of 'Beat the Dealer'. Its on the TV docudrama about him and maybe even in his book, that he only ever played BJ for a 3 day weekend counting cards, in Reno, and he was 86'd from every casino in the city. In 3 days. Total BS! For that to happen, you would need unbelivable luck, every session would have to be such a big winner that the casino would take notice. And in 1960, they weren't even looking for card counters. Thorp was just trying to sell books, as Wong is.
Quote: EvenBobTotal BS! For that to happen, you would need unbelivable luck, every session would have to be such a big winner that the casino would take notice. And in 1960, they weren't even looking for card counters. Thorp was just trying to sell books, as Wong is.
I second that emotion!
Contrary to popular myth, a high count of casino bans is very uncorrelated to the quality of the person's writing. It would show the writer has a minimal amount of skill to be banned. However, it is not hard to get banned by just doing an eyeball count in blackjack. See lots of small cards and raise your bet 5X. See a lot of small cards and bet and go down 80%. If you're betting green chips or higher, you'll have no trouble being asked to not play blackjack at least. Some of the best blackjack writers I believe have a very small count of back-offs, because they are skilled at camouflage. Wong in particular is one of the greatest blackjack minds out there, and his number of back-offs should have nothing to do with it. Due to the passage of time, casino turnover, and the use of false names, it would be very difficult to verify any claims of casino barrings about anybody.
Quote: EvenBob
I don't think so. Ever try and get info about a security issue from a Vegas pit? They can't and won't tell you anything. Nobody in the casino will tell you anything. Even if they knew who Wong was, and most of them wouldn't, they couldn't and wouldn't tell you if he was banned. Try it, if you're in Vegas go and ask any pit person a specific question about who's banned, they won't tell you jack.
Why, was Jack 86ed?
Quote: AZDuffmanWhy, was Jack 86ed?
Dice setting.
Quote: Wizardit would be very difficult to verify any claims of casino barrings about anybody.
And even if the casino knew, they wouldn't tell you. They never give any info on casino patrons, its never in their best interest to do so.
Quote: WizardDice setting.
I think you missed the joke there.
Quote: EvenBob. .. ask any pit person a specific question about who's banned, they won't tell you jack.
Quote: AZDuffmanWhy, was Jack 86ed?
Quote: WizardDice setting.
Quote: AZDuffmanI think you missed the joke there.
Duff, I think you missed the Wiz's joke on your joke.
Quote: EvenBobI have a friend who wins consistantly playing roulette in Vegas. He doesn't play a mechanical system. He has a strategy that he adjusts according to the situation. This strategy is a complicated, complex mixture of probability, statistics and experience that has all morphed into a laser like intuition on the outside bets. He can't really explain what he does, he says it all comes out sounding like 'Gamblers Fallacy'. He doesn't win every bet, but he never loses a session. Ever. When I'm in Vegas, he lets me piggyback his bets sometimes and I always come away a winner. Why do they say roulette can't be beaten, when my friend and others, I'm sure, are beating it every day.
Sounds interesting.
Is he betting just ECs or dozens/ columns also?
Is he betting multiple ECs each bet?
Is he varying his bet sizes?
Is he betting every spin?
Your friend offered to teach you and it would take 1-2 years to learn.
Didn't you ask him even as curiosity, ok I am interested, lets start from the basics.
From what I have read there are 2 ways to beat a roullete (if at all possible)
Biased wheel
Visual ballistics.
Biased wheel is very unlikely in Vegas.
Visual ballistics is by clocking the wheel regarding the rate that the ball falls in the last few rounds of spinning.
Similar technique but by also using a laser to clock the wheel instead of visually did happen in London several years ago fand was very publicised in the media. The casino refuse to pay the win after tehy were discovered.
There are certain people who claim that they can do this visually.
In such a technique the bet is put at the last moment a few rounds before the ball drops.
Did you notice your friend doing this, ie puting the bet at the last moment.
Did he stand at a spot very near the wheel so taht he can have full visual of the rouletter wheel.
Did you notice anything else.
If you notice the above or anything else, tell us about it to see if we can infer what he was doing.
Quote: GWAEI am angry that it took me 4 pages to realize this was bumped from 4 years ago.
Lol.
Yes, Bob has gone from claiming the his friend beats roulette to claiming that he beats it. Times have changed!
Quote: AZDuffmanThey say it cannot be beaten because it cannot be beaten unless you find a biased wheel, which is unlikely. There is no difference in "probability or statistics" from one spin or wheel to the next. Experience will tell someone that.
I realize that those annunciators showing the recent history of the wheel are therefore useless, since each spin is independent and there is no ability for the wheel or the little white ball to know the past history and no force majeur determined to "balance things out in the long run by affecting that very next spin".
The trouble I still have is that although a run of 12 Reds might be common, it would seem it would be less common than a run of eleven Reds. And that a run of 13 Reds might be common, but is less common than a run of 12 Reds.
The observer is just as powerless as the wheel or the little white ball... but the observer sees the recent history and has the truly difficult decision. If at a Craps Table ... Point.. Seven Out is so common, isn't Red Black and Black Red more common at roulette than a continued streak?
Quote: FleaStiffisn't Red Black and Black Red more common at roulette than a continued streak?
In the long term it's way more common.
In the extreme short term anything
can happen, and that's where you bet.
Quote: EvenBobIn the long term it's way more common. In the extreme short term anything can happen,
and that's where you bet.
Yes. I guess descriptive statistics about a slot machine's "overall average" means little to the player who is solely interested in the next pull of that arm.
And the recent history of the roulette wheel is perhaps mildly interesting to the curious, but the serious gambler knows that the wheel and the little ball are ignorant of all history. This next spin can be a continuation of the streak or it can end the streak. The annunciator is there for suckers to discern patterns and because chicken entrails get the casino floor slippery.
I guess that is why all craps dealers describe the table as "choppy''.
Maybe I'll try that 8,500 a month at Poker.
Seems its my only hope.
Quote: EvenBobI have a friend who wins consistantly playing roulette in Vegas. He doesn't play a mechanical system. He has a strategy that he adjusts according to the situation. This strategy is a complicated, complex mixture of probability, statistics and experience that has all morphed into a laser like intuition on the outside bets. He can't really explain what he does, he says it all comes out sounding like 'Gamblers Fallacy'. He doesn't win every bet, but he never loses a session. Ever. When I'm in Vegas, he lets me piggyback his bets sometimes and I always come away a winner. Why do they say roulette can't be beaten, when my friend and others, I'm sure, are beating it every day.
If there's ever a WOV post hall of fame, this one gets enshrined year 1
Not sure when that was written but they should be filthy rich by now. That must be why Bob has so much time to spend on message boards.Quote: michael99000If there's ever a WOV post hall of fame, this one gets enshrined year 1
Quote: AxelWolfNot sure when that was written but they should be filthy rich by now. That must be why Bob has so much time to spend on message boards.
"Never lost a session"
Floyd Mayweather... The '72 Dolphins.... Bobs friend
funny stuff.Quote: michael99000"Never lost a session"
Floyd Mayweather... The '72 Dolphins.... Bobs friend
Quote: treetopbuddyHis OP is completely out of character
What is his character?
What is the next element in those streaks?Quote: Ibeatyouraces
Which one of these is a streak?
A. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
B. BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
C. RBRBRBRBRBRBRBR
D. RRBRBBBRRRRBRBB
ANSWER: All of the above.
Quote: EvenBobI have no intention of spending every day in smelly casinos, how appalling would that be. Pro gambling has never interested me in the least, each to his own I guess. I watch those zipper heads on the poker channels and wonder 'how many books have these guys read since grade school'. No thanks.
I can't believe that Bob used the term "zipper head" and no one called him out on it. Wow. I'm pretty easy going on the racial stuff but "zipper head" is incredibly offensive.
Edit: Someone did call him out. But I don't buy the excuse, zipper head is an incredibly strong racial slur against Asians.
