A Pai Gow Poker version where the dealer has 3 of their 7 cards exposed for players to see.
A Blackjack side bet game where you shake dice to see what bonus you get when you get a Blackjack.
And it looks like our own Paradigm will be offering Half Back Blackjack, which is very interesting to me.
I'm looking forward to the convention and might even have some big news regarding it soon. I've attended the last 4 years and think it keeps getting better and better for inventors and table games management.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13So the Table Games conference is coming upon us soon. A couple of the games that will be in the competition are already listed.
And it looks like our own Paradigm will be offering Half Back Blackjack, which is very interesting to me.
Where is the listing? I checked their website, http://www.tablegamesconf.com/index.php
I DID see that Paradigm's booth is right across the aisle from Galaxy's booth, and both are first in from the door, so nice placement. And handy for me since those are the two booths I'll probably spend most of my floor time at.
But a game listing? Didn't see it...
ZCore13
Quote: teliotI am giving a talk during the main conference this year, titled "The Table Games Profitability Talk."
Table games, all of them, make way more money then they should thanks to civilians who have no clue on proper strategies for the various games.
Quote: IbeatyouracesTable games, all of them, make way more money then they should thanks to civilians who have no clue on proper strategies for the various games.
Wow. Maybe you should be giving the talk. That was incredible... :)
ZCore13
True. But how can they make even more?Quote: IbeatyouracesTable games, all of them, make way more money then they should thanks to civilians who have no clue on proper strategies for the various games.
Where can i find more details of the games being exhibited?
Quote: teliotTrue. But how can they make even more?
More side bets. Three for each game isn't enough!!
BTW, when you go shopping, do you request to pay more than the asking price for your items? Essentially that's what your answer is saying here.
No it isn't what I am saying. Silly.Quote: IbeatyouracesBTW, when you go shopping, do you request to pay more than the asking price for your items? Essentially that's what your answer is saying here.
I am saying, how can casinos make more with their table games? Game pace? Automatic shufflers? Cut card point? Shuffling procedure? No mid-shoe entry? Promotions? Etc. That's not at all like asking the shopkeeper if he will allow me to pay more for soap.
Maybe if you explain yourself. No, probably not.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMore side bets. Three for each game isn't enough!!
BTW, when you go shopping, do you request to pay more than the asking price for your items? Essentially that's what your answer is saying here.
That's a really silly comparison. When you buy food at the grocery store or fast food restaurant should the owner do the work for you and have all the coupons laid out for you? No.
Does someone that does their homework get to pay less than you do? Sure.
You get what you put into things. If it really mattered to people they would either put some effort into playing perfectly or not play. If it really mattered to you, you would clip coupons every day and have one available for every item and meal you purchased.
ZCore13
Quote: teliotNo it isn't what I am saying. Silly.
I am saying, how can casinos make more with their table games? Game pace? Automatic shufflers? Cut card point? Shuffling procedure? No mid-shoe entry? Promotions? Etc. That's not at all like asking the shopkeeper if he will allow me to pay more for soap.
Maybe if you explain yourself. No, probably not.
Makes sense. If I ran a joint, I'd want speed as well.
Quote: teliotTrue. But how can they make even more?
I'm giving your some of your own advice back to you, here. But they can trust the HE to make the money and put in/return to good games and paytables, put their effort into protecting their own games by cleaning up sloppy hole-card flashers and math-addled overpayers, deal as many decks as the math says won't give a significant advantage - or find the cost-point where your exposure is balanced by the potential lost time early shuffling -, let the sharps take their best shot, keep up with new/pervasive scams but not overreact.
Give dealers reasons not just to mark time or treat the customer like the enemy, but to enjoy the social aspects of gaming while maintaining their professionalism, because the gamblers they want to encourage almost all resent a player-bossed or bullied table, a gossipy snarky dealer who would rather talk to their regulars than deal the cards, or a fumbling mistake-prone slow dealer. AP's like all that crap for the distraction factor; I'm there to have fun and try my luck, hopefully with some knowledge about how to play the game from here. My least favorite dealers are the slow, gossipy kind who can't run their mouth and deal at the same time. So they run their mouth. Like they say, shut up and deal. Or talk and deal. Competence and pacing underlie all the best casino experiences, and make the most money.
A place that operates like I prefer (I've heard variously Binion's used to way back, Wynn was for a while there recently, Mirage when they first opened, Bellagio leaves some folks feeling they do that; I saw it at Borgata, the pre-Harrah's Grand Biloxi, and the Vegas GN 20-some years and 3 mgmts. ago. I will also give a shout-out to Harrah's LV, because they treat ME like that, plus give me what I ask for, but it's not universal. They can, and often they do, but not always). Word-of-mouth plus internet makes those professional, fun joints stand out from the rest. If you tell me, "xyz casino has the best paytables in town, the dealers are fun, friendly, and professional, and they don't allow the crap some players hand out to others", I'm there. And I'm loyal.
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm giving your some of your own advice back to you, here.
Barb, I'm actually taking your whole
post into account here. Around the
turn of the last century, rich people
used to lament "It's just so hard to
hire good help anymore." And that
hasn't changed to this day.
Quote: EvenBobBarb, I'm actually taking your whole
post into account here. Around the
turn of the last century, rich people
used to lament "It's just so hard to
hire good help anymore." And that
hasn't changed to this day.
I do believe EB meant the turn of the century before the last turn of the century.
Wake up EB ;-)
Quote: Zcore13And it looks like our own Paradigm will be offering Half Back Blackjack, which is very interesting to me.ZCore13
Lucky & I will be exhibiting this year at the Conference and are looking forward to getting reactions from attendees to our game......best of all is we have the best model dealer ever, Angela Wyman, committed to deal for us!
Quote: Zcore13I'm looking forward to the convention and might even have some big news regarding it soon.
Now I am excited to hear what this news is once you are able to share :-)
ZCore13
Thanks Babs, good advice here and fodder for me to think about while creating my talk.Quote: beachbumbabsI'm giving your some of your own advice back to you, here. But they can trust the HE to make the money and put in/return to good games and paytables, put their effort into protecting their own games by cleaning up sloppy hole-card flashers and math-addled overpayers, deal as many decks as the math says won't give a significant advantage - or find the cost-point where your exposure is balanced by the potential lost time early shuffling -, let the sharps take their best shot, keep up with new/pervasive scams but not overreact.
Give dealers reasons not just to mark time or treat the customer like the enemy, but to enjoy the social aspects of gaming while maintaining their professionalism, because the gamblers they want to encourage almost all resent a player-bossed or bullied table, a gossipy snarky dealer who would rather talk to their regulars than deal the cards, or a fumbling mistake-prone slow dealer. AP's like all that crap for the distraction factor; I'm there to have fun and try my luck, hopefully with some knowledge about how to play the game from here. My least favorite dealers are the slow, gossipy kind who can't run their mouth and deal at the same time. So they run their mouth. Like they say, shut up and deal. Or talk and deal. Competence and pacing underlie all the best casino experiences, and make the most money.
A place that operates like I prefer (I've heard variously Binion's used to way back, Wynn was for a while there recently, Mirage when they first opened, Bellagio leaves some folks feeling they do that; I saw it at Borgata, the pre-Harrah's Grand Biloxi, and the Vegas GN 20-some years and 3 mgmts. ago. I will also give a shout-out to Harrah's LV, because they treat ME like that, plus give me what I ask for, but it's not universal. They can, and often they do, but not always). Word-of-mouth plus internet makes those professional, fun joints stand out from the rest. If you tell me, "xyz casino has the best paytables in town, the dealers are fun, friendly, and professional, and they don't allow the crap some players hand out to others", I'm there. And I'm loyal.
I am mainly focused on the equation T-Win = (house edge) x (game pace) x (hours played) x (average bet). It's amazing how many management decisions ignore this formula. Optimization also considers per-table costs and fixed costs. I've created some math models that point to some remarkably common managerial errors. For example, how many tables should be open and at what limits? What is the cost of cut card placement? What is the effect of shuffle time on profitability? Etc.
I'll add a few cartoons and a bit of comedy so that people don't fall asleep too fast.
Thanks again.
Of course, if it is a hole-card game and your dealer is on break, that's not a bad strategy.Quote: IbeatyouracesOne speed problem is incessant buy ins. You know, that guy or girl that tosses the dealer a $5 or $20 for more chips after every single hand. Drives us nuts.
Quote: teliotOf course, if it is a hole-card game and your dealer is on break, that's not a bad strategy.
True, but that's not the issue here.
Quote: IbeatyouracesTrue, but that's not the issue here.
Thanks, I keep forgetting the issue.
Quote: teliotThanks, I keep forgetting the issue.
Ya know...not everything is about advantage play.
Some people that do enjoy playing, hate their games being slowed to a halt by idiots that keep buying in for tiny amounts.
So the topic is idiots slowing down the game for ordinary gamblers? I am obviously not understanding your point.Quote: IbeatyouracesYa know...not everything is about advantage play.
Some people that do enjoy playing, hate their games being slowed to a halt by idiots that keep buying in for tiny amounts.
Quote: teliotSo the topic is idiots slowing down the game for ordinary gamblers? I am obviously not understanding your point.
It's over your head and under your feet, so forget I mentioned it.
No really, you mentioned this in the context of my question about optimization. You said that these players slow down the game. Really, I want to know, what do you mean here. You seem to understand something pretty deep. Do you think it is a good idea on the casino side to prohibit buy-ins or chip changes in some fashion?Quote: IbeatyouracesIt's over your head and under your feet, so forget I mentioned it.
You know that feeling when you're in the fast lane and a semi pulls in front of you doing 48mph? It's that.Quote: teliotSo the topic is idiots slowing down the game for ordinary gamblers? I am obviously not understanding your point.
For an experienced gambler, a big part of the fun of playing is actually experiencing a well-run game. When the craps table is flowing smoothly, bets are booked and paid quickly, and the dice keep moving, it gets into a rhythm. Same with blackjack. There's a flow that happens after a while in a well-run game. This flow has been extensively studied by psychologists.
Some of the worst dice experiences I've had in the past few years haven't necessarily come when I've lost, they've come when a few players keep the game pace crawling because they're changing bets, arguing with payouts, taking 10 seconds to set the dice before throwing them, etc.
Quote: MathExtremistYou know that feeling when you're in the fast lane and a semi pulls in front of you doing 48mph? It's that.
For an experienced gambler, a big part of the fun of playing is actually experiencing a well-run game. When the craps table is flowing smoothly, bets are booked and paid quickly, and the dice keep moving, it gets into a rhythm. Same with blackjack. There's a flow that happens after a while in a well-run game. This flow has been extensively studied by psychologists.
Some of the worst dice experiences I've had in the past few years haven't necessarily come when I've lost, they've come when a few players keep the game pace crawling because they're changing bets, arguing with payouts, taking 10 seconds to set the dice before throwing them, etc.
Amen, brother.
And this is why I will pay to open an empty $25 table rather than cram into a crowded $10 one. Life's too short to deal with 60 rolls per hour. If it's just me, I can usually hit <10 seconds per roll even when I'm making continuous come bets.Quote: RaleighCrapsAmen, brother.
From the casino side, what can they do to get around this problem? Opening another table may not be sufficient (or possible). I am looking to see how this applies to casino profitability in a practical way where there is an action that can be taken. What casino-side policy works?Quote: MathExtremistYou know that feeling when you're in the fast lane and a semi pulls in front of you doing 48mph? It's that.
The actual experience is common enough. It's kind of like my experience last week walking on the "bike/pedestrian" path along the Santa Barbara beach. There was this family of 5 not so petite tourists who were walking 5-side-by-side, blocking both sides of the pathway, doing maybe 2 m.p.h. at best, probably chatting about how good their pancakes were for breakfast, and wondering where to go for their mid-morning snack before going to lunch. Now, I'm a fast walker (my time is usually about 15 min/mile). As I quickly approached, I observed a tiny break in the middle, to the left of "dad" (about 300 pounds of him), right on the center-line of the path. I paced myself to his left, and just as I got there, when I was about maybe 2 feet away, dad turned to his left to talk to his wife (also about 300 pounds), quickly closing my path. It's like he saw me coming with his rear-facing eyes and figured out the perfect move to thwart my well-planned route. So, I used my martial arts training to squeeze through the quickly narrowing passageway without asphyxiating. I ended up elbowing both dad and mom as I passed between them. The man said, with grandiose overstatement, "Well, excuse YOU!"
Tangam has a system that does that automatically, or at least based on predictive analytics. I haven't been paying attention to that part of the industry so I don't know the other software packages that do this but here's their website:
http://tangamgaming.com/
Quote: MathExtremistUsually it's pricing management. Open higher-limit tables and segregate the higher limit players from the lower limit players. It's the same reasoning for a high limit salon just with more fine tuning.
Tangam has a system that does that automatically, or at least based on predictive analytics. I haven't been paying attention to that part of the industry so I don't know the other software packages that do this but here's their website:
http://tangamgaming.com/
Yes, I talk about Tangam's system. Great product. I have a lot of information from them that I integrate and I actually based one of my models on some of their work (with their permission, of course).
Quote: teliotNo really, you mentioned this in the context of my question about optimization. You said that these players slow down the game. Really, I want to know, what do you mean here. You seem to understand something pretty deep. Do you think it is a good idea on the casino side to prohibit buy-ins or chip changes in some fashion?
No. It shouldn't be prohibited at all. I just wanted to make light of the fact that people who do this are annoying. It annoys other players, dealers, floor people who track this stuff. But yes, it obviously slows the games up. See it here a lot.
Okay, that's what I thought. For the AP it's all about hph. For the casino it's all about hph. It goes both ways. These players pretty much annoy everyone.Quote: IbeatyouracesNo. It shouldn't be prohibited at all. I just wanted to make light of the fact that people who do this are annoying. It annoys other players, dealers, floor people who track this stuff. But yes, it obviously slows the games up. See it here a lot.
I say we should post a billboard in Baker, on 15 N., that says, "If you are a f**king slow player, just turn the f**k around and go home! Nobody likes you!"
Quote: teliotOkay, that's what I thought. For the AP it's all about hph. For the casino it's all about hph. It goes both ways. These players pretty much annoy everyone.
I say we should post a billboard in Baker, on 15 N., that says, "If you are a f**king slow player, just turn the f**k around and go home! Nobody likes you!"
Did he just insult me, people like me, other people more normal than me? That would not be a nice billboard, some Dumas might pay for it anyway.
Hi, Jeff, Yes, indeed. We are coming to the show with 4 Card Split and we will enter the competition this time. Between last show and now, we have made some "dealing procedural" improvements to the game. I think you will be even more impressed if by November you have not placed 4 Card Split in you casino. :-)))Quote: Zcore13It looks like Wayne (eTable Games) will be entering 4 Card Split into the competition? That's just a guess, but looking at the lineup on his website, I think that's his newest game that would fit into the show format the best.
ZCore13
On my website, I posted a new side bet called "Lucky Max Baccarat", for baccarat obviously. I showed it to Gold Coast one Friday and received an order for two tables on Saturday. What a difference this encounter makes!!! Getting an order before the game was even approved by the Gaming. Oh, yes, I have patent and registered trademark pending. I will make an announcement when it opens in August.
Quote: MathExtremist
Some of the worst dice experiences I've had in the past few years haven't necessarily come when I've lost, they've come when a few players keep the game pace crawling because they're changing bets, arguing with payouts, taking 10 seconds to set the dice before throwing them, etc.
Keep talking and I'll make it 20 seconds, buddy!!! Jk
ZCore13
Just a thought.
Quote: HunterhillSomeone needs to invent a way to change tables based on demand. For example maybe the casino has 4 3cp tables and only one Uth table. But many players waiting to play Uth somehow they should be able to quickly change the layout to accommodate the waiting players. This could work well in smaller casino's. I realize with all the electronic stuff it would be difficult.
Just a thought.
It's not that far off. You can get a site license for all the games in a distributor's portfolio and use as many as you want any time you want. All it would take is a removable table top and some snap in plugs if there is a progressive on it. All the pieces of the puzzle already exist, just nobody has put them all together yet.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13It's not that far off. You can get a site license for all the games in a distributor's portfolio and use as many as you want any time you want. All it would take is a removable table top and some snap in plugs if there is a progressive on it. All the pieces of the puzzle already exist, just nobody has put them all together yet.
ZCore13
Something like this would work fine on a machine.
Quote: HunterhillSomeone needs to invent a way to change tables based on demand. For example maybe the casino has 4 3cp tables and only one Uth table. But many players waiting to play Uth somehow they should be able to quickly change the layout to accommodate the waiting players. This could work well in smaller casino's. I realize with all the electronic stuff it would be difficult.
Just a thought.
Victory has this on the boat. The main anchor of the table( in a D shape) holds the electronics (table sign in this case) and the dealer's till. The outer crescent (from the insurance line outward) is flipped whether they're dealing BJ or UTH on the table. They change the table in about 20 seconds depending on anticipated demand for that cruise. It would be easy to do this with any number of games.
I think the last element missing is a way of counting hands dealt or hours open on a table, for royalty payments. When they can do this easily, I think they'll be much more flexible.
As I said before, competence and pacing (agreeing with others in this thread) is everything. Pacing includes riding with the flow of the table, not just dealing as fast as possible. But the dealer has to be the leader of the table, pushing the pacing when necessary, slowing a bit to do what needs to be done (color-ups and change, bets placed, whatever) and it's a skill-set that only comes with experience. Can't brush off an irregularity or complaint, but can't let the whole table on a busy day come to a dead stop while someone can't keep up with the betting flow on craps.
If a hand needs more discussion to satisfy a customer, and the cards can be shuffled and dealt for the next while hearing the customer out, shuffle and deal. etc. There's a balance between not acknowledging the customer's needs and keeping the game flowing without rushing it. That's the sweet spot they should look for that gets a good customer through any rough spots without souring them on their gambling experience with that house.
As a casino, you don't want to treat the newb badly in most cases, because it's not just them at the table, it's your best returning customers watching and judging you on how you treat another customer. Most customers can empathize or remember when that same thing was a question for them, or something similar. They're also there to enjoy themselves and take it as it comes, but not be stuck waiting on a petty argument or see a dealer turn ugly about a question or small error. But you also can't take the game down to the lowest-common-denominator snail's pace, or you lose your good customers who do know how to play; I think the slow player gets 2 bonehead moves, then the third gets pushed a bit (improve or go elsewhere) if there are others at the table. Generalizations are dangerous, but that's about the point it changes for the overall flow. Drunks get less room; airhead cute girls get more.
Competence includes at a base level knowing the rules of the game and being able to politely clarify or explain; you can't tell me that the vast majority of problems on any given game aren't encountered nearly every day. A list of the 10 most-often points of contention or confusion per game (they all have their idiosyncrasies) along with politely-phrased answers should be required training for everyone who deals or oversees the game. And yet casino staff are constantly caught short, have to ask the floor, can't explain it easily, get defensive about being questioned about the most basic game rules or procedures. This should not be difficult as they make it, but except at break-in houses, it's inexcusable to put a dealer on who can't read the cards, set their hands, and quickly use a printed paytable. (Hello, Paris! You reading this? lol...)
Table Game Operators Roundtable
Casinos deal with a wide range of table game issues on a daily basis; players, products, marketing, new technologies, surveillance, profitability…the list is long. In this interactive discussion, hear from successful table game executives across multiple markets about their top priorities, and how they manage to both defend and grow table games as a category of business within their casinos.
Moderator:
Roger Snow, Sr. Vice President – Table & Utility Products, Scientific Games Corporation
This will be my second time participating in a gaming conference. My first was the 2013 NIGA conference. I was a invited by the Arizona Department of Gaming to be a panelist for "Diversification, Expansion and Opportunities in Card and Table Games". We had a nice size group and the feedback afterward was excellent.
ZCore13
Nice. Have fun with it. See ya there!
Roger is moderating? Interesting.
Quote: HunterhillSomeone needs to invent a way to change tables based on demand. For example maybe the casino has 4 3cp tables and only one Uth table. But many players waiting to play Uth somehow they should be able to quickly change the layout to accommodate the waiting players. This could work well in smaller casino's. I realize with all the electronic stuff it would be difficult.
Just a thought.
We use flip top tables, 3 Card Poker on one side, Blackjack the other side, and can be flipped as the night demands.
Quote: beachbumbabs
As I said before, competence and pacing (agreeing with others in this thread) is everything. Pacing includes riding with the flow of the table, not just dealing as fast as possible. But the dealer has to be the leader of the table, pushing the pacing when necessary, slowing a bit to do what needs to be done (color-ups and change, bets placed, whatever) and it's a skill-set that only comes with experience. Can't brush off an irregularity or complaint, but can't let the whole table on a busy day come to a dead stop while someone can't keep up with the betting flow on craps.
'Pacing the game' is taught on the training school, but can only really be learned with experience. And yes, i agree it's a very important part of dealing.
Quote: Zcore13Thinking that hands per hour is the most important thing is very short sighted. That may be the goal in a Las Vegas Strip property, but most of the gambling world is not the Las Vegas Strip. There are other things that are more important than hands per hour. The trend across the country is less worried about hands per hour and more focus on other service aspects.
Absolutely, especially when the demographic is so different. The problem of big bettors getting frustrated with low-limit newbies doesn't really happen when you're a regional location and most of your clients are regulars (or other non-tourists) and have both similar budgets and experience playing. It's probably good advice (to Eliot, in his talk) to focus on the differences between pricing management benefits based on casino location and player demographic. I wouldn't suspect companies like Tangam do much business with smaller regional casinos but I could be wrong.
How much do you do vis-a-vis pricing management for your tables? Is it a set schedule that almost never changes, or do you dynamic analysis and make changes on the fly? (If this is too much secret sauce, don't answer.)
Quote: MathExtremistAbsolutely, especially when the demographic is so different. The problem of big bettors getting frustrated with low-limit newbies doesn't really happen when you're a regional location and most of your clients are regulars (or other non-tourists) and have both similar budgets and experience playing. It's probably good advice (to Eliot, in his talk) to focus on the differences between pricing management benefits based on casino location and player demographic. I wouldn't suspect companies like Tangam do much business with smaller regional casinos but I could be wrong.
How much do you do vis-a-vis pricing management for your tables? Is it a set schedule that almost never changes, or do you dynamic analysis and make changes on the fly? (If this is too much secret sauce, don't answer.)
It's pretty set here, but it can change based on demand. Daytime all $5 minimums. Weekend nights everything goes to $10, with a $15 and $25 usually mixed in there. We do open up higher limit tables upon request any time, to allow a higher limit player to not be bothered with smaller buy-ins and more reckless play. This happens usually once or twice a day.
I was just in Las Vegas recently reviewing Slot/Table Games Accounting Systems. At least one, maybe two of the four we reviewed had a system for determining the amount of tables and minimums (Tangam was not one of the systems). I'm thinking it might have been Konami, but it could have been Bally.
ZCore13