ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 10:31:50 AM permalink
A casino offers this game to me :-

1) Baccarat, Min bet = \$100, Max bet = \$10000

2) Player buy chips worth 60K with cash 60K and casino will give chips worth 30K for FREE. Total chips = 90K.

3) You CAN'T cash out the chips until your chips total amount worth MORE than 90K, the amount you can cash out = current chips amount - 90K. You can cash out as many times as you like. For example, after few rounds of betting, your total chips is worth 125K, you can cash out 35K ONLY, after cashing out, your remaining chips is 90K, and you can continue to play. You will lose all your chips eventually. Please note that you may have chance to cash out many times before lose all 90K.

My betting strategy, bet on BANKER only, cash out once your total chips more than 90K :-
a) Bet 3k per round, simulation shows that the EV = \$2970, no of rounds = 853 before lose all.
b) Bet 6k per round, simulation shows that the EV = \$14430, no of rounds = 246 before lose all.
c) Bet 10k per round, simulation shows that the EV = \$19750, no of rounds = 97 before lose all.

Anyone/Eliot would like to check my figure?
MaxPen
• Posts: 3634
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 12:11:12 PM permalink
Did you hear about the blackjack game with .75% advantage? It come with bonuses as well.
bigfoot66
• Posts: 1582
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
June 23rd, 2015 at 12:16:47 PM permalink
I think that if you bet your whole bankroll and cash out after every win then your EV approaches +50%
Vote for Nobody 2020!
charliepatrick
• Posts: 2972
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 12:49:33 PM permalink
The obvious strategy is to bet banker and cash out every time you go back over 90k. It seems reasonable to try and get larger chunks out as fast as possible before House Edge eats at your bank. It does seem that making bets of (edit) 5k would make a profit, but lower ones wouldn't.
Hands Dealt
Bet Size
Rounds
Winnings
Take Outs
Average
Hands per game
80 591 812
\$90,000
35 964 992
\$3,159,743,899,500
36 956 069
\$87,856
2.241
80 591 679
\$10,000
829 362
\$66,264,174,577
7 749 302
\$79,898
97.173
80 594 929
\$5,000
234 434
\$16,956,905,770
4 047 924
\$72,331
343.785
80 591 223
\$2,000
46 792
\$2,530,502,736
1 527 781
\$54,080
1722.329
80 589 799
\$1,000
15 754
\$563,196,512
682 328
\$35,749
5115.513
Edit : I had a small bug in my program which was had the player/banker reversed. As you can see I now get close to the 19k profit. I also changed it to stop when the bank went below \$100, but before that it would bet all the bank when lower than the "betsize".
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 1:06:12 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

A casino offers this game to me :-

1) Baccarat, Min bet = \$100, Max bet = \$10000

2) Player buy chips worth 60K with cash 60K and casino will give chips worth 30K for FREE. Total chips = 90K.

3) You CAN'T cash out the chips until your chips total amount worth MORE than 90K, the amount you can cash out = current chips amount - 90K. You can cash out as many times as you like. For example, after few rounds of betting, your total chips is worth 125K, you can cash out 35K ONLY, after cashing out, your remaining chips is 90K, and you can continue to play. You will lose all your chips eventually. Please note that you may have chance to cash out many times before lose all 90K.

My betting strategy, bet on BANKER only, cash out once your total chips more than 90K :-
a) Bet 3k per round, simulation shows that the EV = \$2970, no of rounds = 853 before lose all.
b) Bet 6k per round, simulation shows that the EV = \$14430, no of rounds = 246 before lose all.
c) Bet 10k per round, simulation shows that the EV = \$19750, no of rounds = 97 before lose all.

Anyone/Eliot would like to check my figure?

I don't understand what you've written. Can you cash out *everything* once you are over \$90k? or just the surplus? In other words, what is the relevance of the \$30k in free chips?

Thinking about it, I suppose the \$30k just moves the lower boundary further away, giving you extra chances to cash out. Okay. You (or someone on your team) are a strong programmer. You are probably right. I would also do this by simulation. [Edit. see next post.]
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teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:12:35 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

A casino offers this game to me :-
c) Bet 10k per round, simulation shows that the EV = \$19750, no of rounds = 97 before lose all.
Anyone/Eliot would like to check my figure?

I simulated 100M players betting \$10k per round. I got 97.16 rounds, on average, and \$19,820 in profit, on average.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:33:26 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

I don't understand what you've written. Can you cash out *everything* once you are over \$90k? or just the surplus? In other words, what is the relevance of the \$30k in free chips?

Thinking about it, I suppose the \$30k just moves the lower boundary further away, giving you extra chances to cash out. Okay. You (or someone on your team) are a strong programmer. You are probably right. I would also do this by simulation.

You are correct, you only can cash out the surplus and the 30k give you extra chances to cash out.
ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:35:21 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

I simulated 100M players betting \$10k per round. I got 97.16 rounds, on average, and \$19,820 in profit, on average.

Thanks for your verification. My team mate did it :=)
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:42:39 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

Thanks for your verification. My team mate did it :=)

Someone will be out of a job soon, I fear. Probably some nice lady with 2 kids, who really needs her job. Or maybe the pressure was on some low-level marketing team to come up with a promotion for their high rollers in a highly competitive market. Who knows, it could even be the director of marketing. But this will be bad news for some nice people, regardless of how incompetent they may be. Just so you know, there is often collateral damage, not just monetary damage.

On the other hand, if not you, then someone else.
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ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:50:03 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Someone will be out of a job soon, I fear. Probably some nice lady with 2 kids, who really needs her job. Or maybe the pressure was on some low-level marketing team to come up with a promotion for their high rollers in a highly competitive market. Who knows, it could even be the director of marketing. But this will be bad news for some nice people, regardless of how incompetent they may be. Just so you know, there is often collateral damage, not just monetary damage.

Do you think that casinos care about million of gamblers out there ? There are also many gamblers with more than 3 kids .You want us to care about casino staffs ?

We are beating their own game within rules set by them.
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:55:12 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

You want us to care about casino staffs ?

You posted here, I answered here, so the information is available and it is public. I have met my personal standard for public visibility for my work on advantage play, so whatever happens is okay by me. Poorly conceived ideas should get their due. The best education is the school of hard knocks.

Whether you care or not, still, too bad for those nice people. There are very few jobs out there where the consequence of one person doing a good job is that another person loses their job. Maybe lawyers.
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djatc
• Posts: 4477
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
June 23rd, 2015 at 2:58:22 PM permalink
Don't hate the player hate the game
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 3:03:06 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

You posted here, I answered here, so the information is available and it is public. I have met my personal standard for public visibility for my work on advantage play, so whatever happens is okay by me. Poorly conceived ideas should get their due. The best education is the school of hard knocks.

Whether you care or not, still, too bad for those nice people. There are very few jobs out there where the consequence of one person doing a good job is that another person loses their job. Maybe lawyers.

Do you think that all those gamblers are not nice people ? Why you don't care about these people and ONLY care about casino staffs ?

I will stop this topic here.
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 3:07:35 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

Do you think that all those gamblers are not nice people ? Why you don't care about these people and ONLY care about casino staffs ?

I will stop this topic here.

Some APs are very nice people. Some are sociopaths. Some casino employees are very nice people. Some are sociopaths. I have known all sorts on both sides.

I obviously care about some APs. You may have forgotten, just last year I was Phil Ivey's expert witness.

That said, I am not sure which side you are on. On the one hand "inviting" me to be on your team. Then, shortly after, saying "very well said, kman" in the lucky 8 thread,

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/22351-lucky-8/5/

Do you honestly think I steal my code from someone else? That nothing I do is original? Just because I won't show this guy my code? That's the type of behavior that APs do that I just don't get. In my case, APS make stuff up and then jump on each other to agree with that made up stuff. It's been going on for a decade and it is still going on.

Ssho88, if you ask me a question, I will answer it because we both are intellectually curious. But, pick one, please. Sociopath or nice guy.
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ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 3:36:24 PM permalink
Quote: Do you honestly think I steal my code from someone else? That nothing I do is original? Just because I won't show this guy my code?[/q

I never said that you steal code from someone else. Did I say that ?

You probably care about Phil Ivey but have you care about gamblers who lose all their money to the casinos and not able to feed their kids ? I want to be nice guy and Sociopath, depends on the people who I am dealing with.

teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 3:42:02 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

I never said that you steal code from someone else. Did I say that ?

Then, tell me, what did you mean when you said "well said?" What part of kman's rant were you referring to? The part about my website not having content (that it did, in fact, have)? I assumed that you were referring to the entire statement, as you didn't restrict your comments to some part of kman's rant.
Quote:

I want to be nice guy and Sociopath, depends on the people who I am dealing with.

Very Zen of you.
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ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 3:47:04 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Then, tell me, what did you mean when you said "well said?" What part of kman's rant were you referring to? The part about my website not having content (that it did, in fact, have)? I assumed that you were referring to the entire statement, as you didn't restrict your comments to some part of kman's rant.
Very Zen of you.

I am referring to the part about your website not having content and nothing to do with the codes. I believe you can write your own codes. Fair ?
DRich
• Posts: 12050
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 3:49:55 PM permalink
At what Max bet would it be a break even prop for the casino and player? How would one figure that out mathematically (without running a sim).
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 3:52:37 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

I am referring to the part about your website not having content and nothing to do with the codes. I believe you can write your own codes. Fair ?

Okay, but I put all the stuff back on my website a full month prior to kman's post. So even then, you don't look very good there.
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ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 4:00:37 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Okay, but I put all the stuff back on my website a full month prior to kman's post. So even then, you don't look very good there.

I am not aware you put back all the stuff prior to kman's post.
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 4:13:10 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

I am not aware you put back all the stuff prior to kman's post.

It took me 3 days to put it all back. I completed the work on May 16. Kman's post was made June 16. There you go.

Nothing special about you here. APs do this all the time to me. One AP will make something up or get his facts wrong. Others just assume it's true and pile on in agreement. I'm an easy target. Truth doesn't matter.
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ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 4:15:29 PM permalink
You probably care about Phil Ivey but have you care about gamblers who lose all their money to the casinos and not able to feed their kids ?

Are you going to answer above question in previous post ?
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 4:16:51 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

You probably care about Phil Ivey but have you care about gamblers who lose all their money to the casinos and not able to feed their kids ?

Are you going to answer above question in previous post ?

So, you care about the kids of the gamblers(the very small number who have a gambling problem) but not the kids of the casino employees?

The real question is if you believe in the "Robin Hood" defense to being an AP? That is, do you feel as though you are doing some good for society by beating casinos?

Look, this has been a fun exchange. Don't get me wrong here, I am one of your biggest fans. But, you will forgive me if I don't dive into this question. We need to save some energy for our next math project.
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AxelWolf
• Posts: 22296
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 4:19:57 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

You posted here, I answered here, so the information is available and it is public. I have met my personal standard for public visibility for my work on advantage play, so whatever happens is okay by me. Poorly conceived ideas should get their due. The best education is the school of hard knocks.

Whether you care or not, still, too bad for those nice people. There are very few jobs out there where the consequence of one person doing a good job is that another person loses their job. Maybe lawyers.

We have some people who are both casino employees and AP's. I think they are the most qualified to weigh in on all this talk and concern about nice people losing casino jobs. Casino employees can be sociopaths as well. What about darksiders who cost nice AP's their jobs? Casino cause far more damaged to people than AP's.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ssho88
• Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
June 23rd, 2015 at 4:29:05 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

So, you care about the kids of the gamblers(the very small number who have a gambling problem) but not the kids of the casino employees?

I care kids of gamblers more than casino employees

Quote: The real question is if you believe in the "Robin Hood" defense to being an AP? That is, do you feel as though you are doing some good for society by beating casinos?

Look, this has been a fun exchange. Don't get me wrong here, I am one of your biggest fans. But, you will forgive me if I don't dive into this question. We need to save some energy for our next math project.[/q

Just to inform that "Robin Hood" is my hero since my childhood. I don't want to spend too much time on this topic.

Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 5:13:38 PM permalink
If Microeconomics is to be employed in the most practical manner, and theoretical questions answered in the most logically valid way, then Ethics really has no place in the discussion.

Heads may or may not roll, so I think you would actually have to determine the probable number of heads rolling, assign a dollar value to those heads and then compare that dollar value to the dollar value that the APs are most likely to make.

One also has to consider that some of the income from the heads that roll will be replaced by the, probably slightly lesser, income earned by the new heads. Unless, of course, we want to believe that the casino would not replace those positions.

If you are a Keynesian, like myself, then you believe that active money is good money. While APs certainly reinvest their money in other AP pursuits, at the same time, some of the money that they win (read: earn) must also go towards base goods. Even more so if they have kids, but again, we don't really know for sure who does or does not have more kids amongst these two groups.

Either way, AP is undoubtedly a form of employment, even if it is self-employment, and if nobody were to AP this promotion, then nobody gains.

That having been said, given that most, if not all, jobs left vacant because of the rolling heads would be replaced...arguably...with people just as likely to have kids as the previous job holders, AP is an Economic good.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
mcallister3200
• Posts: 3670
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
June 23rd, 2015 at 5:29:04 PM permalink
It's an industry where often enough people get/lose jobs based on who they're friends with more than most other fields, at least it worked that way in Vegas the brief time I worked for a casino. In cases like this at least if heads roll they deserve it and should be in another occupation if they're that arithmetically challenged.
SlackJawYokel
• Posts: 73
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 5:39:28 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

It took me 3 days to put it all back. I completed the work on May 16. Kman's post was made June 16. There you go.

Nothing special about you here. APs do this all the time to me. One AP will make something up or get his facts wrong. Others just assume it's true and pile on in agreement. I'm an easy target. Truth doesn't matter.

I believe in your book thread you stated in no uncertain terms that the information edited from your site would not be restored. If Kman is not a regular visitor to your site he may not have known that everything has been put back.
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 5:43:38 PM permalink
Quote: SlackJawYokel

I believe in your book thread you stated in no uncertain terms that the information edited from your site would not be restored. If Kman is not a regular visitor to your site he may not have known that everything has been put back.

So, you are defending kman. Curious tactic to defend and make excuses for the indefensible.

I am looking for that statement in my book. I can't find it (but then, I've been drinking). Care to remind me where it is?
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Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 5:54:16 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

So, you are defending kman. Curious tactic to defend and make excuses for the indefensible.

I am looking for that statement in my book. I can't find it (but then, I've been drinking). Care to remind me where it is?

No, SlackJawYokel means in the thread on this site promoting the book.

On Pages 1 & 2 of that thread, you stated that the information had been removed from APHeat.

On Page 7 of that thread:

You replied to Axelwolf that you would not be putting the removed information back on APHeat. Specifically, you said, "I can't imagine doing that in any Universe."

There's obviously nothing binding you to that statement, but that's what SJY is referring to.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
MaxPen
• Posts: 3634
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 5:55:41 PM permalink
Maybe I'm reading the first post wrong. What happens if you never get ahead?
mcallister3200
• Posts: 3670
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
June 23rd, 2015 at 5:58:40 PM permalink
In the thread announcing your book Eliot, not the book. I'm not going to go back and find it but something about you had a conversation with Zender about it and weren't going to put the info back. I'm not sure it was "in no uncertain terms" but some sort of comment, and you have the right to change your mind on something without being trashed, but it comes with being the lightning rod you are.

Obviously you do get attacked sometimes and I would agree that often it's unfairly. Sometimes I've joined in, sometimes I've defended you to an extent. Certainly the opinions are often biased or exaggerated claims based on what side of the industry one works on, it's difficult not to to an extent.
MissEye
• Posts: 68
Joined: Jun 1, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:01:42 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

It's an industry where often enough people get/lose jobs based on who they're friends with more than most other fields, at least it worked that way in Vegas the brief time I worked for a casino. In cases like this at least if heads roll they deserve it and should be in another occupation if they're that arithmetically challenged.

I've always been able to get jobs based on doing good work, even here in Vegas. And I agree, if someone can't do their job well, they really should find something they are better at. No one likes to have a coworker bring the team down with incompetence.

And I like AP's since they keep me busy but there are plenty of other things for me to watch so... Casino employees lives matter!
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:13:15 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

No, SlackJawYokel means in the thread on this site promoting the book.

Really, kman, followed by kman apologist SJY, followed by SJY apologist M146. There is no doubt that kman knew exactly what he was saying -- I re-read his original emails to me. Sometimes APs write polite emails to me, and we have what I consider to be a professional, or even friendly, exchange. Rarely do I get blindsided by someone using these exchanges to attack me. That is the case here.
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Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:13:17 PM permalink
Quote: MissEye

And I like AP's since they keep me busy but there are plenty of other things for me to watch so... Casino employees lives matter!

Brilliant!!!

There's another excellent perspective that plays into my Microeconomics point:

Let us consider a world where there are no beatable promotions, beatable table games and probably to a lesser extent, beatable slots. I believe that Teliot may well go back to being a professor in such a world. I also think that, with no AP's to speak of, there are likely going to be fewer jobs in surveillance, as well. Also, if there are no AP's, and if we assume that many AP's would not frequent casinos if there is nothing to AP, then there are less people in the casino which might create less of a need for cocktail waitresses, slot attendants and the like.

Let's take it a step further and we'll also eliminate cheaters and thieves, who have nothing to do with AP, but there are casino positions that exist to combat them. At this point, you're going to have, what, maybe one person whose job it is to watch the Tables on the camera just for honest-to-goodness payout mistakes? I'm not saying that thieves and cheaters are necessarily an Economic positive, but on the other hand, employing the people that have to deal with thieves and cheaters do result in such people getting checks and buying Base Goods.

Also, without all of the above people, if one owned a casino, one would likely not seek out the most advanced surveillance equipment because a simple setup would likely be sufficient if all one is really watching for is legitimate dealer mistakes.

Thus, it could be argued that, in spite of Marketing people whose heads may roll (and will likely be replaced) that Advantage Players create jobs in casinos simply by attempting to win money at the casino. It is also arguable that cheaters and thieves create jobs because someone has to be employed to try to stop them from doing what they are doing.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
MissEye
• Posts: 68
Joined: Jun 1, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:20:29 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Brilliant!!!

There's another excellent perspective that plays into my Microeconomics point:

Let us consider a world where there are no beatable promotions, beatable table games and probably to a lesser extent, beatable slots. I believe that Teliot may well go back to being a professor in such a world. I also think that, with no AP's to speak of, there are likely going to be fewer jobs in surveillance, as well. Also, if there are no AP's, and if we assume that many AP's would not frequent casinos if there is nothing to AP, then there are less people in the casino which might create less of a need for cocktail waitresses, slot attendants and the like.

Let's take it a step further and we'll also eliminate cheaters and thieves, who have nothing to do with AP, but there are casino positions that exist to combat them. At this point, you're going to have, what, maybe one person whose job it is to watch the Tables on the camera just for honest-to-goodness payout mistakes? I'm not saying that thieves and cheaters are necessarily an Economic positive, but on the other hand, employing the people that have to deal with thieves and cheaters do result in such people getting checks and buying Base Goods.

Also, without all of the above people, if one owned a casino, one would likely not seek out the most advanced surveillance equipment because a simple setup would likely be sufficient if all one is really watching for is legitimate dealer mistakes.

Thus, it could be argued that, in spite of Marketing people whose heads may roll (and will likely be replaced) that Advantage Players create jobs in casinos simply by attempting to win money at the casino. It is also arguable that cheaters and thieves create jobs because someone has to be employed to try to stop them from doing what they are doing.

Yep, half my job is due to cheaters and thieves. I'm grateful for them :) And also bad dealers who make mistakes and have to be reviewed. My bread and butter!
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:21:30 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

How do you know what he means? How do you know what kman used as his resource?

I don't know jack about Kman, but SlackJawYokel said, "In your book thread..." Please excuse me if that (correctly) led me to believe he was referring to the thread about your book. I usually go with a literal interpretation first, so that's the way I took it.

Furthermore, he clarified in a later post that he meant in your thread announcing the book.

There are only so many ways I can take, "Your book thread."

Given my assumption that I was correct in what he meant, I actually happened to recall the specific conversation which he may have been referring. Therefore, I Searched for your book thread, found it, and made references to it that I felt pertained to the subject matter.

Quote:

What both kman and SJY said was very clear and unambigious.

SJY said, "In your book thread." It couldn't have been that unclear, I knew precisely what conversation was being referred to.

Quite frankly, I don't know how you thought he was referring to in the book, itself, when he said, "In your book thread."

Quote:

So now you are trying to defend SJY who stated something that is patently false. That's just how it goes, isn't it. Someone says things about me that are false, then someone else coming to his rescue, saying, no, what he meant was ... then someone comes to that guy's rescue ...

The only thing I am defending is he referenced something you said, "In your book thread," and you did, in fact, say it.

Quote:

Really, kman, followed by kman apologist SJY, followed by SJY apologist M146.

Just amazing.

Again, I don't know jack about KMan other than something about you not doing your own programming, or some bull like that. If KMan says that you did not write your own programs, then that accusation is baseless and without merit. If SJY believes KMan's bold assertions, then he believes bold assertions that are baseless and without merit.

I'm not defending KMan, and I don't have a, "Side." I'm referring to a conversation that really, objectively, happened and that I could find easily as I recalled it taking place in your book thread.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
teliot
• Posts: 2871
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:23:01 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Sorry, after drinking some more wine and re-reading what you wrote, I edited my original post since I misunderstood you (and other stuff). Now, it is all how it should be.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
Mission146
• Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 6:25:09 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Sorry, after drinking some more wine and re-reading what you wrote, I edited my original post since I misunderstood you (and other stuff). Now, it is all how it should be.

Oh, that's good then, apology accepted.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
ajemeister
• Posts: 208
Joined: Mar 20, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 7:31:03 PM permalink
this is the reason i hate online casinos.. you put in \$60,000 real money and it becomes instantly forfeited unless you meat certain term... then you MAY be able to get some of it back... could you imagine if b&m casinos started doing this? i don't care if they gave me 100k in free play, i want my money and i want to cashout as i please..
ajemeister
• Posts: 208
Joined: Mar 20, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 7:36:18 PM permalink
not only do you need to win 60k to break even.. but you must consistently win or else be stuck in eternal limbo.. doesn't this affect the HE of online casinos, or at least the RoR because if you don't bet fairly large.. it could take a year or more to get all your money back?
MaxPen
• Posts: 3634
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 8:01:35 PM permalink
Quote: ajemeister

not only do you need to win 60k to break even.. but you must consistently win or else be stuck in eternal limbo.. doesn't this affect the HE of online casinos, or at least the RoR because if you don't bet fairly large.. it could take a year or more to get all your money back?

At first I thought it was an online casino. Then I thought I was wrong and it's a brick and mortar. If online this is a bad deal in my opinion. If brick and mortar the theoretical value is awesome but the conditional stipulations make it not worth trying to get that value.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22296
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 8:19:15 PM permalink
Quote: MissEye

I've always been able to get jobs based on doing good work, even here in Vegas. And I agree, if someone can't do their job well, they really should find something they are better at. No one likes to have a coworker bring the team down with incompetence.

And I like AP's since they keep me busy but there are plenty of other things for me to watch so... Casino employees lives matter!

Other than counting. Just what would you be looking for concerning AP's? Including slots, VP, keno, sports etc etc. I'm not talking cheating or ticket vultures ( that you proudly mentioned). Just AP, all kinds. Also how can you tell the difference?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22296
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 8:49:23 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Brilliant!!!

There's another excellent perspective that plays into my Microeconomics point:

Let us consider a world where there are no beatable promotions, beatable table games and probably to a lesser extent, beatable slots. I believe that Teliot may well go back to being a professor in such a world. I also think that, with no AP's to speak of, there are likely going to be fewer jobs in surveillance, as well. Also, if there are no AP's, and if we assume that many AP's would not frequent casinos if there is nothing to AP, then there are less people in the casino which might create less of a need for cocktail waitresses, slot attendants and the like.

Let's take it a step further and we'll also eliminate cheaters and thieves, who have nothing to do with AP, but there are casino positions that exist to combat them. At this point, you're going to have, what, maybe one person whose job it is to watch the Tables on the camera just for honest-to-goodness payout mistakes? I'm not saying that thieves and cheaters are necessarily an Economic positive, but on the other hand, employing the people that have to deal with thieves and cheaters do result in such people getting checks and buying Base Goods.

Also, without all of the above people, if one owned a casino, one would likely not seek out the most advanced surveillance equipment because a simple setup would likely be sufficient if all one is really watching for is legitimate dealer mistakes.

Thus, it could be argued that, in spite of Marketing people whose heads may roll (and will likely be replaced) that Advantage Players create jobs in casinos simply by attempting to win money at the casino. It is also arguable that cheaters and thieves create jobs because someone has to be employed to try to stop them from doing what they are doing.

I actually think AP's are more honest and giving than the average person. I think APs spend more and pay more taxes than the average person. Most APs don't get a tax refund.

Also some AP's give jobs to people. Sometimes people who couldn't find work elsewhere. Some people don't work well in a normal job environment. There's been people incredibly down on their luck who started by working for someone else. Wasn't Mickey Crimm homeless at one time?

There were quite a few people, especially in the 90's that made a good living and career out of working for teams. Example Frankie Kneeland and his mother worked for a team.

They supported families bought houses cars and whatever you can imagine working for individuals or teams.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MissEye
• Posts: 68
Joined: Jun 1, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 9:09:11 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Other than counting. Just what would you be looking for concerning AP's? Including slots, VP, keno, sports etc etc. I'm not talking cheating or ticket vultures ( that you proudly mentioned). Just AP, all kinds. Also how can you tell the difference?

Mostly just counters, hole card cheats, not slot AP. And yes, I am proud when I do my job well as anyone should be. I believe in doing well at something I'm paid to do. Guess I'm crazy like that :)
mcallister3200
• Posts: 3670
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
June 23rd, 2015 at 9:48:12 PM permalink
Quote: MissEye

Mostly just counters, hole card cheats, not slot AP. And yes, I am proud when I do my job well as anyone should be. I believe in doing well at something I'm paid to do. Guess I'm crazy like that :)

Hole carding is usually not cheating you know better than that. Offense taken.
MissEye
• Posts: 68
Joined: Jun 1, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 9:55:05 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Hole carding is usually not cheating you know better than that. Offense taken.

It's a grey area :) No offense meant. They help us notice dealers who need a little instruction.
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22296
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
June 23rd, 2015 at 11:04:18 PM permalink
Quote: MissEye

Mostly just counters, hole card cheats, not slot AP. And yes, I am proud when I do my job well as anyone should be. I believe in doing well at something I'm paid to do. Guess I'm crazy like that :)

Very interesting that, that's all your casino really looks for. Good to know. What casino is it?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MissEye
• Posts: 68
Joined: Jun 1, 2015
June 23rd, 2015 at 11:20:14 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Very interesting that, that's all your casino really looks for. Good to know. What casino is it?

There's more than that but we just don't look for slot AP was what I was pointing out. I don't know of any place that does. I can't say where I work.
djatc