Royal Flush + Royal Match in Pai Gow Poker

Say a player in Pai Gow Poker is dealt the following hand: Jh Qh Kh Ah Qs Ks Joker. How should the hand be set?

I've been fortunate enough to see this hand dealt twice so far this year (and twice in my life...and I'm not expecting to see it again), and I don't think either recipient set it right...

I admit that when holding the cards, it's hard to ignore the royal, but I voted for JQQKK / A*.

Without doing the math...

While the Royal is a unbeatable, KQ is easily beat, making a push likely. More likely than not, this will win, but only marginally so.

The AA is almost unbeatable, and the two pair is particularly strong. This makes a loss extremely unlikely, and even a push not very likely. This is far more likely to win. Not guaranteed, but close.

I'd definitely set it two pair with aces up front. The likelihood of the dealer having 2 more aces AND a hand where they go in the low hand are almost nil. That hand is much more likely to win than the royal with KQ.

Today I posted a comment in a poker-related thread, even though I admitted I am not a poker player. Well, I am definitely not a Pai Gow Poker player -- never even tried the game. But it seems to me that *QQJA/KK or *KKJA/QQ would perhaps be a better hand than JQQKK/A*. Three of a kind should be better than two pair, and the KK or QQ isn't much lower than the A*. Or does Pai Gow have rules that I am overlooking?

I don't understand this game well enough to actually cast a vote.

This kind of question is what my pai gow poker appendix 1 is for. Add up the two power ratings (PR) for each viable way to play the hand, and go with the greater sum. The expected value (EV) is roughly 0.975×(total PR)-1. The following table is based on not banking. The EV of playing the AA/two pair is much higher.

Low hand	High hand	Low PR	High PR	Total PR	EV
KQ	Royal flush	0.452967	0.999507	1.452474	0.416162
AA	KKQQJ	0.989071	0.821870	1.810941	0.765667

Repeating my comment that I don't understand this game, I get that KK/QQQ gives Total PR=0.978758+0.880168=1.858926 (EV=0.81245); i.e., higher than either of the two suggested splits. Does making the hand with the joker change something?

Quote: Doc

Repeating my comment that I don't understand this game, I get that KK/QQQ gives Total PR=0.978758+0.880168=1.858926; i.e., higher than either of the two suggested splits. Does making the hand with the joker change something?

The joker is only partly wild. It can complete a straight or flush, otherwise it's an ace.

Quote: rdw4potus

The joker is only partly wild. It can complete a straight or flush, otherwise it's an ace.

Thanks! If I had good sense and good manners, I would stay out of a conversation where I don't know what I am talking about. (At least I admitted up front that I don't understand the game.)

Wait a sec...

"Royal Flush + Royal Match in Pai Gow Poker"

I never play the silly side bets, but does the Royal Match change things? Or is that based upon the 7 original cards, and not how they are set?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Wait a sec...

"Royal Flush + Royal Match in Pai Gow Poker"

I never play the silly side bets, but does the Royal Match change things? Or is that based upon the 7 original cards, and not how they are set?

I once played a Pai Gow game with a side bet that was based on the way you set your five card hand. Under these circumstances it would probably make sense to play the royal.

But the most common "Fortune" side bet is based on your 7 cards, regardless of how you set them. You'd get credit for the royal even if you play two pair + pair.

Quote: rdw4potus

I don't think either recipient set it right...

did they ask to have it set the House Way? I could see the dealer setting it wrong too.

deleted

i agree, but I think my fellow players would have set that as quad aces with QJ up:-)

I'd set it as the royal with the KQ suited in the low hand just to make it easier for everyone to read my huge bonus hand.

In my experience, to play your best odds it has to be AJoker up top, KKQQJ in the back. EXCEPT Harrah's LV for years paid a different schedule, where you had to keep a hand together to pay its value (the Rio did this too when they opened up, but quickly changed to what everybody else was doing, which was paying the bonus regardless how the hand was set). Harrah's paid a higher rate as well for FH because of this (6:1 FH instead of 5:1, with a pair it paid 12:1). So it depended on your base bet to bonus bet ratio how you might set the hand, as a FH/non-second pair was almost always a push, but 3OAK with a pair set was mostly a winner. House way was to always split the FH for the highest possible top. If I had this hand at Harrah's during this time, I would've held it for the bonus, because the worst it would do is push and pay. I'm pretty sure they finally dumped that paytable; nobody else, including their own properties in other places, was using it to my knowledge. And, even at Harrah's, if you're NOT playing the bonus, the Ajoker top is the only way to go.

This hand is similar in strategy to the 2 hand rule when you have a flush, straight, or straight flush in the hand, but also 2 pairs. It's almost always right to split the pairs and go for the win. That's the house way as well (there are a few exceptions, like 2 small pair and a flush or straight that includes the ace, most houses will keep the 2 small pair together and play ace whatever up top) but in either case, disregarding the flush or straight. However, if you (not the house) have a huge (say 8x base) bet on the ante, there are times when you virtually concede it will be a push and hold the straight/flush with no top (splitting your two pairs) just to protect the big bet. I think you have to decide what your tolerance for the riskier play will be (though there are those on here marvelous with numbers to tell you your chances); I tend to chicken out and protect the base bet at around 4x base. Generally, though, it's best to play as strong a top as the hand will allow; the house doesn't play to win, they play NOT TO LOSE, so there are times when it pays to be aggressive. Keep in mind that all houses seem to have slightly different house way rules, and find out what they are before you start. All in my experience....now to go see what the Wiz's numbers say about it. lol...

Quote: beachbumbabs

EXCEPT Harrah's LV for years paid a different schedule, where you had to keep a hand together to pay its value (the Rio did this too when they opened up, but quickly changed to what everybody else was doing, which was paying the bonus regardless how the hand was set). Harrah's paid a higher rate as well for FH because of this (6:1 FH instead of 5:1, with a pair it paid 12:1). So it depended on your base bet to bonus bet ratio how you might set the hand, as a FH/non-second pair was almost always a push, but 3OAK with a pair set was mostly a winner. House way was to always split the FH for the highest possible top. If I had this hand at Harrah's during this time, I would've held it for the bonus, because the worst it would do is push and pay. I'm pretty sure they finally dumped that paytable; nobody else, including their own properties in other places, was using it to my knowledge. And, even at Harrah's, if you're NOT playing the bonus, the Ajoker top is the only way to go.

Late to the party, but was reading old threads and found this. What you're describing is a game called Jackpot Pai Gow Poker. I've never seen it anywhere, and like you said, it's probably been completely abandoned. I do have one story regarding it though.

My boss's friend was playing at (I think) Harrah's, and was playing the Jackpot Pai Gow table, but either had no idea that he wasn't playing Fortune or didn't know the difference. He was dealt Five Aces, and he played it like you would ordinarily play it (AAAxx/A*). Whoops. He got paid for trips. He asked the dealer "Why didn't you tell me I had to keep them together to get paid?!" The dealer responded that he would have been instantly fired if he did.

It's not hard to see why the game faded away. Many people probably became disgusted with the game by basically being tricked into throwing away a massive payout. Imagine getting a natural 7-card and not even getting paid 50:1 (Jackpot pays 30:1 for a straight flush). Interestingly though, Jackpot Pai Gow offers a tremendously low house advantage if played optimally, never going any higher than 2.36%. The additional edge must be in player errors such as not knowing you can't break up your bonus.