Casino etiquette and Pai Gow

At a recent trip to the Indian Casino in California, I was playing Pai Gow poker at a table with three other players. I'll try to be concise, but let me set the scene.

The guy on first base was kind of a grouchy old man type. Older asian woman next to him, then me, then a hispanic guy on third base. I'd been losing and I was almost out of chips. I get dealt an Ace-high Pai Gow with my remaining chips on the table, so I'm likely to go bust with this hand.

Everyone sets their hands and then the dealer shows her cards. She's got an Ace, a Joker, a pair of Queens and three unsuited rags. No straight, no flush. She then proceeds to set the Ace and Joker up top for her low hand. So with only a pair of Queens in her high hand, she has set a foul hand.

To my hand, this makes no difference, but because I see that the hand is fouled I tell her that the Queens should go up top and not the pair of Aces (Ace-Joker).

Well, with that, first base goes ape-shit and starts yelling at me, "You never help her! You never help her!" which I can only assume was because he possessed a hand that would have been affected by this change in play. A pair of Kings comes to mind, for example. So I snap back at him that I didn't need to hear from him about helping the dealer out and how it wasn't as if we get paid if she sets a foul hand anyway and how this wasn't my first day in a casino and so on.

In the moment, it felt like I was doing the table a favor, in fact, because she was exchanging her unbeatable Aces up top for her only nearly unbeatable Queens. Only upon reflection did it occur to me that the difference in the power of the high hand, which changed from Queens to Aces, would be more likely to change the outcome for the various players at the table (although not for my Ace-high). Even still, the likelihood of the change from QQ to AA in the dealer's high hand having made the difference between a push and a loss didn't seem very likely either. In any event, it wasn't as if I had said, "Hey, you've got a flush!" or "Hey! You've got a straight!" as so often happens with overly eager novice loudmouths at the table.

It just seemed like such a small transgression (if a transgression at all?) to be called out on and certainly to the degree that he did. After all, she set her hand foul! I've never even seen a dealer do that before! So when I snapped back at him it was more about asserting myself at the table than it was about being right. More of a, "Hey Asshole. Who do you think you are talking to me like that?" sort of thing.

It just especially burned me because I felt like to be called out on an etiquette mistake that I am consciously aware of and make an effort to avoid.

Am I crazy to have pointed out a dealer foul setting her own hand?

Quote: grvlpts

At a recent trip to the Indian Casino in California, I was playing Pai Gow poker at a table with three other players. I'll try to be concise, but let me set the scene.

The guy on first base was kind of a grouchy old man type. Older asian woman next to him, then me, then a hispanic guy on third base. I'd been losing and I was almost out of chips. I get dealt an Ace-high Pai Gow with my remaining chips on the table, so I'm likely to go bust with this hand.

Everyone sets their hands and then the dealer shows her cards. She's got an Ace, a Joker, a pair of Queens and three unsuited rags. No straight, no flush. She then proceeds to set the Ace and Joker up top for her low hand. So with only a pair of Queens in her high hand, she has set a foul hand.

To my hand, this makes no difference, but because I see that the hand is fouled I tell her that the Queens should go up top and not the pair of Aces (Ace-Joker).

Well, with that, first base goes ape-shit and starts yelling at me, "You never help her! You never help her!" which I can only assume was because he possessed a hand that would have been affected by this change in play. A pair of Kings comes to mind, for example. So I snap back at him that I didn't need to hear from him about helping the dealer out and how it wasn't as if we get paid if she sets a foul hand anyway and how this wasn't my first day in a casino and so on.

In the moment, it felt like I was doing the table a favor, in fact, because she was exchanging her unbeatable Aces up top for her only nearly unbeatable Queens. Only upon reflection did it occur to me that the difference in the power of the high hand, which changed from Queens to Aces, would be more likely to change the outcome for the various players at the table (although not for my Ace-high). Even still, the likelihood of the change from QQ to AA in the dealer's high hand having made the difference between a push and a loss didn't seem very likely either. In any event, it wasn't as if I had said, "Hey, you've got a flush!" or "Hey! You've got a straight!" as so often happens with overly eager novice loudmouths at the table.

It just seemed like such a small transgression (if a transgression at all?) to be called out on and certainly to the degree that he did. After all, she set her hand foul! I've never even seen a dealer do that before! So when I snapped back at him it was more about asserting myself at the table than it was about being right. More of a, "Hey Asshole. Who do you think you are talking to me like that?" sort of thing.

It just especially burned me because I felt like to be called out on an etiquette mistake that I am consciously aware of and make an effort to avoid.

Am I crazy to have pointed out a dealer foul setting her own hand?

I would have done the same thing. The house can't set their hand fouled. They have specific house ways. I would mention the error to the dealer every time in an effort to keep him/her out of trouble rather than worry about some clown at the table getting mad at me.


ZCore13

If you had gotten that hand and set it that way, you would have lost your bet.

Not only would I have pointed out her mistake, but I would have tried to argue that she fouled her hand, so it should be a push.

Quote: ams288

If you had gotten that hand and set it that way, you would have lost your bet.

Not only would I have pointed out her mistake, but I would have tried to argue that she fouled her hand, so it should be a push.

Most places that I have played would call the floor and allow you to set your hand correctly on a mistake like that.

The house cannot foul their hand. They are required to set their hands to exact specifications. Arguing the point and putting the heat on the dealer for the mistake gives a good insight into ones character.


ZCore13

I am not fond of "helping the dealer" either, but on a fouled dealer hand I think you have to speak up, and I would have in your place. I'm guessing she misread the rags and thought she was setting 3 pair, but a braino is a braino, so it could have been anything.

Sure, hypothetically it might be better for everybody's results if the aces are up top, but that's true in many cases or they wouldn't have the internal hand rank rule. I don't think your late insight equates to an etiquette violation. The guy was out of line in screaming, but could have delivered the message in a non-disruptive way on a non-fouled set and I'd have agreed with him. The foul has to be corrected.

If someone at the table was one of those overeager yutzes who call the dealer's hand every exposure, and the comment was the culmination of putting up with that for several hands....maybe I can see the frustration spill into yelling for a moment. Otherwise, he's the bad etiquette player, not you.

Quote: Zcore13

Most places that I have played would call the floor and allow you to set your hand correctly on a mistake like that.

The house cannot foul their hand. They are required to set their hands to exact specifications. Arguing the point and putting the heat on the dealer for the mistake gives a good insight into ones character.


ZCore13

I don't think it has anything to do with "character." Dealer f***ed up. Try to take advantage of it.

Quote: ams288

I don't think it has anything to do with "character." Dealer f***ed up. Try to take advantage of it.

How do you take advantage of a dealer playing AA/QQxxx? If the dealer misread her hand as three pair like someone already hypothesized, she's going to take your bet if you have KK down. And the moment you try to say "Wait! You only have Queens! I push!", the dealer's going to come back to reality and set her hand properly.

Bottom line, there's no way for you to sneak out a push due to the misset.

Quote: ams288

I don't think it has anything to do with "character." Dealer f***ed up. Try to take advantage of it.

Getting a supervisor involved and asking for a push because a a simple mistake is not just accepting the benefits of a mistake.

I'm all for keeping quiet if a dealer mispays someone. I'm not for calling attention to a minor error and trying to make a big deal about it.


ZCore13

Quote: Deucekies

How do you take advantage of a dealer playing AA/QQxxx? If the dealer misread her hand as three pair like someone already hypothesized, she's going to take your bet if you have KK down. And the moment you try to say "Wait! You only have Queens! I push!", the dealer's going to come back to reality and set her hand properly.

Bottom line, there's no way for you to sneak out a push due to the misset.

I was at a casino last week and a guy at the blackjack table next to me threw a MAJOR HISSY FIT because he lost three hands in a row.

Just three hands.

At blackjack.....!

Think about that for a minute...

He threw such a big fit that they actually gave him a new shuffle!!!

Make a big enough scene and you can get stuff.

Quote: ams288

I was at a casino last week and a guy at the blackjack table next to me threw a MAJOR HISSY FIT because he lost three hands in a row.

Just three hands.

At blackjack.....!

Think about that for a minute...

He threw such a big fit that they actually gave him a new shuffle!!!

Make a big enough scene and you can get stuff.

I guess play at that casino then, especially when that pit boss is working.

Thanks for the support and the insight, everyone.

There were a few additional things I didn't mention in my post, but they only make the guy look worse, not better:

- The dynamic of the table was such that first base had settled into the Pai Gow guru role after I asked the dealer a few times how to set a few two pair hands.

- He also had gotten quad 8s earlier in the day and the $6 envy that I collected from it resulted in me playing another hand and winning $150 on the 50:1 Queen's Dragon Bonus bet. When I lamented that I should have bet the whole $6 instead of $3, he admonished me that I should just be thankful that he "saved me" such that I stuck around for the next hand. At this, I even conceded, saying, "You know, you're right. Thanks for the envy bonus on that four-of-a-kind. That worked out nicely for me." Of course, this only served to strengthen his self-perception as the expert at the table.

Taken together, I think there's ample evidence to support the "That guy was a dick" hypothesis.

FYI after our verbal exchange and the dealer collected my chips, I calmly got up from the table and wished everyone good luck as I departed. I'm proud of that.

Quote: beachbumbabs

If someone at the table was one of those overeager yutzes who call the dealer's hand every exposure, and the comment was the culmination of putting up with that for several hands....maybe I can see the frustration spill into yelling for a moment. Otherwise, he's the bad etiquette player, not you.

I think you may have a point here. I know this is something I do from time to time and given the dynamics of the table at the time, it may very well have been the case that he thought I was doing this, even if it only happened a few times.

Nevertheless, it's certainly something I'll try to refrain from doing entirely in the future.

I only point out a dealer's mistake if the correction is in my favor -i.e. if my financial outcome on the hand is affected. If I'm not affected by the mistake, I keep my frigging mouth shut in case I foul up the hand for another player. So, I think the other player had a right to be angry at the OP -although I agree that this specific error was as close to a gray area as they come.

Unlike other posters I feel no responsibility for "helping the dealer." Absolutely zero.

Quote: grvlpts

At a recent trip to the Indian Casino in California, I was playing Pai Gow poker at a table with three other players. I'll try to be concise, but let me set the scene.

The guy on first base was kind of a grouchy old man type. Older asian woman next to him, then me, then a hispanic guy on third base. I'd been losing and I was almost out of chips. I get dealt an Ace-high Pai Gow with my remaining chips on the table, so I'm likely to go bust with this hand.

Everyone sets their hands and then the dealer shows her cards. She's got an Ace, a Joker, a pair of Queens and three unsuited rags. No straight, no flush. She then proceeds to set the Ace and Joker up top for her low hand. So with only a pair of Queens in her high hand, she has set a foul hand.

To my hand, this makes no difference, but because I see that the hand is fouled I tell her that the Queens should go up top and not the pair of Aces (Ace-Joker).

Well, with that, first base goes ape-shit and starts yelling at me, "You never help her! You never help her!" which I can only assume was because he possessed a hand that would have been affected by this change in play. A pair of Kings comes to mind, for example. So I snap back at him that I didn't need to hear from him about helping the dealer out and how it wasn't as if we get paid if she sets a foul hand anyway and how this wasn't my first day in a casino and so on.

In the moment, it felt like I was doing the table a favor, in fact, because she was exchanging her unbeatable Aces up top for her only nearly unbeatable Queens. Only upon reflection did it occur to me that the difference in the power of the high hand, which changed from Queens to Aces, would be more likely to change the outcome for the various players at the table (although not for my Ace-high). Even still, the likelihood of the change from QQ to AA in the dealer's high hand having made the difference between a push and a loss didn't seem very likely either. In any event, it wasn't as if I had said, "Hey, you've got a flush!" or "Hey! You've got a straight!" as so often happens with overly eager novice loudmouths at the table.

It just seemed like such a small transgression (if a transgression at all?) to be called out on and certainly to the degree that he did. After all, she set her hand foul! I've never even seen a dealer do that before! So when I snapped back at him it was more about asserting myself at the table than it was about being right. More of a, "Hey Asshole. Who do you think you are talking to me like that?" sort of thing.

It just especially burned me because I felt like to be called out on an etiquette mistake that I am consciously aware of and make an effort to avoid.

Am I crazy to have pointed out a dealer foul setting her own hand?

Did you see the grouch's hand? Did the correction affect him?

Sorry - you are obviously allowed to correct a mistake if it's in your favour (even if it stops someone else winning) and I also do it if it helps another player (usually seeing a winning side-bet at Blackjack when the dealer thinks it's a loser). However if it doesn't affect you, then best to keep quiet. In the long run, especially at Blackjack or Pai gow like games that typically only pay [about] evens, an errant payout will soon be lost back to the house; it doesn't help the dealer by pointing out their mistake and the house probably wouldn't be that worried if it was an isolated case at small stakes.

On reflection - the AA/QQ..... setting prevents someone with a low hand of Kings winning, they probably have three pair, as AAKK is now unlikely. Much more likely case is someone who has high hand of Kings (only needs KKxxxxx or KKXXAxx) and the dealer would give them a push rather than a loss. So, as they say in A Fish Called Wanda, we won't call you stupid, but probably ill-advised.