UTH or 4 Card Poker?

Hey there-

I'm definitely a part-time gambler and prefer sitting only for a few hours vs. a longer grind. I like the volatility and win potential of the carny games and play the side bets, even though they are *absolutely* not the best odds :)

Keeping this in mind, if you have 2-3 hours max which game do you prefer- Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em or Four Card Poker? Curious to hear which and what bets (ante vs bonus) configuration you make.

Thanks!

Ultimate allows for more decision-making, so I would go with that. I don't know the HA of Ultimate, but 4-Card is 2.79%. Both games have elements that look like BS at first (Ultimate's Blind bet, 4-Card with the dealer getting six cards) but the casino has to make money somehow.

What State are you going to be playing in? Texas Shootout is a really fun poker based game. There are also some games that have a "pot" feature, that you not only play against the house, but also a side bet that plays against the other players at the table.

Most games that make it to a Casino floor (and many that don't) are fun. Try others you haven't tried. You might find one you like even better.

ZCore13

Thanks- the HA on Ultimate somewhere around 2.3 with optimal play. However I always seem to get river-ed with excellent (AA, AK, KQ etc) cards on that game. Also want to consider the bonus bets, both of which I think have HAs in the 2-3% range...

Usually play in NV or WA.

Quote: JohnnyComet

Hey there-

I'm definitely a part-time gambler and prefer sitting only for a few hours vs. a longer grind. I like the volatility and win potential of the carny games and play the side bets, even though they are *absolutely* not the best odds :)

Keeping this in mind, if you have 2-3 hours max which game do you prefer- Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em or Four Card Poker? Curious to hear which and what bets (ante vs bonus) configuration you make.

Thanks!

I like them both.

4 Card will give you more hands per hour. Also worth noting: If you use simple strategy, the house edge is 3.4%. Many casinos will let you play just the Ante Up bet, which has a house edge of 3.9% (on pay table 50-40-8-5-4-3-1, the only one I've ever seen). So, a lot of players will play two spots of just Ante Up. That increases the chance of a big hit while spreading the volatility a bit, and avoids having 4 units bet on two pair or a straight when the dealer turns over a flush. Sure, all the wins of 3 units with J-J-x-x-x will balance those losses, over time, but if we were talking sense we wouldn't be sitting at a 4 Card Poker table, would we?

That being said, I think UTH is more fun. It is a serious blast, there are more decision points and more chances for garbage to turn into gold. Nothing like holding 6-4 off suit and seeing a flop of 2-3-5.

Thanks- do you generally match the trips with the Ante on UTH or press it up?

I match. If I'm betting $10 a spot I bet $10 on the trips.

Just wanted to poke my head in here and say that Trump Taj in AC had 3-4 4cp tables open most of the day when I was there last. Never seen it that popular anywhere else.

Quote: JohnnyComet

Hey there-

I'm definitely a part-time gambler and prefer sitting only for a few hours vs. a longer grind. I like the volatility and win potential of the carny games and play the side bets, even though they are *absolutely* not the best odds :)

Keeping this in mind, if you have 2-3 hours max which game do you prefer- Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em or Four Card Poker? Curious to hear which and what bets (ante vs bonus) configuration you make.

Thanks!

I think this is a no-brainer.

In the long run, UTH is a much better bet without Trips, using optimal play it is a lower house edge, and the Wizard's "element of risk" is well under 1%, almost blackjack-like, and probably the best poker-based table game around in that category. My experience playing many several-hour sessions in both is that the fluctuations are comparable (you'd have to look up the numbers), but I'd suggest that for both you need at least 80x-100x your ante bet as a bankroll if you're flat-betting to be "comfortable" for the night.

As others have noted, there is much more "thinking" and decision-making involved in UTH, making it a funner and more stimulating game IMO, and you're playing against the same number of dealer cards (you'll hear a lot of people complain about that fact that dealer has one extra card at 4CP tables, and often people only bet Aces Up for that reason, but in fairness the game does make up for that by offering the ability to bet 3x on good hands, no need for dealer to qualify, and some decent Ante bonuses on big hands).

That said, all the perks that I like (fun, fairly low house edge, and ability to win big) is in UTH, even if you elect to not play the Trips bet. In 4CP, a lot of the (short-term) potential to make your money is hitting the straights, flushes, trips, etc...in UTH, the money is in the ability to make 2x-4x raises on even moderately good hands, plus you get the 50x-500x Blind if you're lucky enough to get a straight or royal flush, and still 10x for quads. In my view, there's not much incentive to play Trips for more than a nickle, unlike 3CP or 4CP where no one really sits down unless they are trying to hit those intermediate-to-big hands on the bonuses.

Like any side bet, it stinks when you miss out on that 8x full house or whatever, but you're still getting compensated on the Blind for those hands, and missing out on a 30x-40x hit is not going to haunt you for life if you don't play it.

You should master the optimal strategy for both, but in UTH you don't usually see people sit at the tables and raise 4x on, say, KQ suited or even a pair of 7's in your hand, but you ought to, and these periodic hits will make it easier to stay ahead by quite a good amount even if you're not getting the "big" hands. A lot of people play conservatively on their first two cards, and bet big on Trips, and they will lose a lot more. In 4CP, it's just hard to win anything unless you go on a streak of high pairs or better, or get (extremely) lucky enough to hit a straight flush/quads.

I'm not sure I've seen a game the average recreational player plays more poorly than UTH. Most play far too passive. The pre-flop strategy is pretty simple, it gets messy by the river decision. I would say uth but I would either purchase the basic strategy card sold by lva or print the wizard of odds sheet off to help at first on tough decisions. It's not like blackjack where virtually anyone who plays a 3:2 game is less than 2% disadvantage, people are playing this game at a 10%ish disadvantage.

Preflop strategy on UTH is pretty simple, and Wizard has made river strategy a bit more simple with his 21-outs rule. On the flop, it gets a little muddy because you need to know what straight and flush draws to bet and which ones to check.

UTH is my favorite game to play. 4CP not so much. Count me in with the camp that doesn't like the dealer getting 6 cards, even though the player wins the ties. The sixth card can only hurt the player. I'd rather have a "Blind" bet which will occasionally pay off for the player, like Crazy Four Poker.

As for Trips, I know it's not optimal to play, but at 3.5%, it's not terrible, as long as you're playing your main game as optimal as possible. There are other casino games where you're bucking a comparable edge even playing just the base game.

Speaking of Trips, you should be on the lookout for a rare paytable that pays 9:1 on the full house instead of 8:1. If you find that, the house edge is only about 1%. You'd actually like to bet heavier on that than the main game, if I remember our last discussion correctly.

I have played both, but UTH wins by a mile with me. I have little to add that the others haven't already said, except you MUST be aggressive with your 4x bet (which most players are too conservative to do) in order to take full advantage of your game. Get the simple strategy at WoO and print it out at a minimum.

People think they're being wise checking an ace or a small pair, or two picture cards offsuit; they're costing themselves huge money by doing so. The 21out rule is the finishing touch and has made the difference on whether I win or lose overall most sessions.

The other thing many people miss is that there are times when you should play the board for a push; 2 pair and a 9 or higher kicker on the board, for example, you can bet the River with pocket nothing. It's hard to remember to look for those sometimes, but they also almost always come under the 21out rule as well, so it's a good idea to make a habit of counting the outs on every river. The exceptions tend to be if the board has 4 to a flush and you don't have it, or 4 to an outside straight and you don't have it, you need to doublecheck your values. Can't remember exactly how the JG card has that broken down; I usually kind of wing those hands on other values (and probably get it wrong more than I should).

Thanks for all the responses!
It's easy to get carried away with the bonus bets, especially if you've been on a streak or two, and forget about the low risk on the main ante game...even if it's just for a few hours of play.

I just hate getting great pairs or high cards and being eaten alive by crazy dealer hands. :) And grinding it out with rough cards.

Quote: JohnnyComet

Thanks for all the responses!
It's easy to get carried away with the bonus bets, especially if you've been on a streak or two, and forget about the low risk on the main ante game...even if it's just for a few hours of play.

I just hate getting great pairs or high cards and being eaten alive by crazy dealer hands. :) And grinding it out with rough cards.

It definitely stinks when you get pocket A's, and the dealer pulls out a straight or two pair on the final card, but that's the game...it'll happen in 4CP a lot too. But you also win more than you think in UTH on "low hands" against a dealer no qualify or whatever.

I only play the free games at WoO. UTH is a much more "playable" game IMHO. The only bug is the rule that if Dealer DNQ, and I lose, I lose the Raise and the Blind. IMHO it should be the raise only: push the Ante and Blind. That might cost the house 0.2% at worst, and the blind bet can compensate. /MHO

Quote: 98Clubs

I only play the free games at WoO. UTH is a much more "playable" game IMHO. The only bug is the rule that if Dealer DNQ, and I lose, I lose the Raise and the Blind. IMHO it should be the raise only: push the Ante and Blind. That might cost the house 0.2% at worst, and the blind bet can compensate. /MHO

Remember that an optimal player gets the EoR down to only 0.5% though, so 0.2% is a big chunk of it. And I'd imagine it's more than 0.2% difference.

Well, I did do some number crunching on this based on the WoO breakdown. It larger than I thought at 0.5676%.
As you point out the game is a Lo HA already per unit. Changing that rule would require substanstial Blind payout changes.

Quote: beachbumbabs

People think they're being wise checking an ace or a small pair, or two picture cards offsuit; they're costing themselves huge money by doing so. The 21out rule is the finishing touch and has made the difference on whether I win or lose overall most sessions.
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Do you have an easy technique for this? Getting my brain to calculate the outs after a few drinks and/or some table adrenaline is difficult... !

Quote: JohnnyComet

Do you have an easy technique for this? Getting my brain to calculate the outs after a few drinks and/or some table adrenaline is difficult... !

1st off: if you have a pocket pair or a hidden pair (you've paired the board) or better at this point, you're in and don't need to count the outs.

No pair board is 15 outs, plus 4 outs for every card above your kicker you can't see.

1 pair board is 11 outs, plus 4 outs for every card above your kicker you can't see.

So for example, if you have a Queen kicker, and the board is all lower singles, there are 23 outs (4 aces, 4 kings, 15 cards that can pair with 3 for each single) and you should fold.

If there's a pair on the board, or an Ace+King in the singles, there are 21 or less outs, and you should bet.

Shortcut that's more conservative: with a queen, the board should have 1 pair and 1 higher card minimum or you should fold.

EXCEPT: don't bet her if the board has 4 to an outside straight, or 4 to a flush. (too many additional outs, with 8 for a straight and 9 for a flush). A gutshot (inside) straight should be ok, but it's razor thin and the dealer will fill those more than you think they should.

If you have a king and still haven't bet it (Kings you bet 4x with a 5 or better), he's a good bet EXCEPT for as above.

If you have a Jack, I recommend a pair plus 2 higher cards on the board minimum before you bet him, again EXCEPT as above.

If the board has 2 pair with a low card, or 3OAK with 1 low and 1 higher card, bet with a 9 (razor thin) or higher (better).

If the board has 2 pair with a 10 or better, or 3OAK with 2 off cards of 9 or better, or any 5 card poker hand, bet with anything. You want a push and hope the dealer has to play the board as well.

Grosjean and the Wiz's strategies both go into more detail than this (and probably have some small differences), but this is what's working for me. The whole idea is, anything that's on the board can't be in the dealer's hand working against you.

Good stuff- thanks!!