Roulette: Is this dumb?

As I shared previously, a local person recently donated a casino-quality roulette table and 32" wheel to our school to use at our frequent fundraising events. It is in virtually brand new condition. It is truly a thing of beauty. Below is a picture of the ensemble set up in my garage.

We already own two, 20' double roulette. Each can handle about 15-20 players. Still, we can't get everybody on a table during peak hours that wants to play. So, this table will pick up some of the overflow.

Our wager limit on the big tables is $3 minimum - $5 maximum. That means any outside bet must be for a minimum of $3 and no more than $5. All outside bets pay the same as a casino. On the inside, the player must bet at least $3 that can be any combination, i.e.: 3, $1 bets. Also, no single inside bet can be greater than $5. Most inside bets are of the $1 variety, however we have some aggressive $5 players. All inside bets are shaved by about 1/3. (I know, ouch!)

Since this new ensemble is so fancy, somebody suggested that we should make it our "high-limit" table. Specifically: set it up in an area somewhat away from the other 2 tables. As for limits, all wagers both inside and out would be for the same amount, $5 (perhaps even $10).

Requiring outside bets on the outside does not scare me very much because they pay either 1:1 or 2:1. However, requiring that any/all inside bets at $5 gives me the jitters because every winning bet gets a max payout, albeit shaved by 1/3. Still, I'm thinking that while we could drag in a ton more money, we are losing the variance of having some smaller ($1) wagers on the inside combined with a just a few maximum wagers. Under this scenario, any/all wagers on the inside are max wagers--with max payouts. Are my fears warranted? Thoughts.

BTW...while we have a maximum $500 limit on the amount a person can win per-day, savvy players know how to easily get around this by either going to the cage several times and/or offing any money in excess of $500 to a pal to cash in for them.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2hoiqfs.jpg

Thanks.

So you're paying something 24:1? I mean, I wouldn't be scared of any action there. Even if someone hits, the payout is what, like 120 dollars?

Why is the limit on the outside so low that it matches the inside limit? Just wondering. Is it because of the fact that you shave so much off the inside bets that the risk is comparable?

Quote: Boney526

So you're paying something 24:1? I mean, I wouldn't be scared of any action there. Even if someone hits, the payout is what, like 120 dollars?

Why is the limit on the outside so low that it matches the inside limit? Just wondering. Is it because of the fact that you shave so much off the inside bets that the risk is comparable?

The way I look at it, outside bets is simply trading dollars back and forth between the house and players. Black loses, red wins. Odd loses, even wins. It's almost a push at the end of the day.

We structure the bet limits for consistency and ease of understanding for the dealers. Most dealers are volunteers and when you set up multiple betting levels, quite frankly, it confuses them and mistakes are made.

About payouts..straight up pays 25:1. Split pays 12:1, etc.

I think that you are looking at this the wrong way. You would get into trouble if you had a lot of small wagers and then only a few big wagers that hit. By demanding $5 wagers here you are allowing the law of large numbers to work in your favor. I would make it $5 bets inside and, gasp, $10 bets outside. Only have $5 checks at the table. they cannot bet more than 1 chip on a number inside and they must bet stacks of 2 chips outside. Easy.

Quote: bigfoot66

I think that you are looking at this the wrong way. You would get into trouble if you had a lot of small wagers and then only a few big wagers that hit. By demanding $5 wagers here you are allowing the law of large numbers to work in your favor. I would make it $5 bets inside and, gasp, $10 bets outside. Only have $5 checks at the table. they cannot bet more than 1 chip on a number inside and they must bet stacks of 2 chips outside. Easy.

Hmmmm? Interesting.

Again, my gut tells me this might add a new layer of complexity to the program for our dealers with $10 outside and $5 inside. As I said, to me, outside bets are just trading dollars irrespective of the amount of the wager. Most of our money made is on the inside.

Not to argue, I'm looking at this from a player's perspective as well. It's very easy to grasp a statement that says "all bets $5" or, "all bets $10". They know exactly what they are getting in to without having them ponder why we allow $10 on outside bets and just $5 on inside. Having to explain things a zillion times per-night takes time--and "time" is our most precious commodity.

For what it's worth, I deal for a poker league. Part of my job is to train new dealers. Some of them are no better than some of the newbie players. And some of the experienced players are no better than the newbie players either!


What I'm saying is, keep it simple.

Same betting limits inside and outside, AS WELL AS on all the tables. And contrary to what you're thinking, you're not such hot shit that you need a high limit table.

I want to be in a position where I consider 5%+ house edge wagers to just be "trading dollars back and forth".

It's stunning how little you seem to know of the math of the game you're offering.

Quote: bigfoot66

I think that you are looking at this the wrong way. You would get into trouble if you had a lot of small wagers and then only a few big wagers that hit. By demanding $5 wagers here you are allowing the law of large numbers to work in your favor. I would make it $5 bets inside and, gasp, $10 bets outside. Only have $5 checks at the table. they cannot bet more than 1 chip on a number inside and they must bet stacks of 2 chips outside. Easy.

So if I want to bet $5 inside, I have to bet all 5 on either a corner, line, or straight up? I would hate that. Most anyone who plays roulette for enjoyment and plays the inside (especially at a charity event) will more than likely be betting singles, up to the minimum/limit.

Personally, if you're willing to let someone bet $5 per number on the inside and pay out something like $120 for 1 hit, why wouldn't you let more action happen on the outside? Even red/black are >5% advantage for you... Red: (18/38)(1) + (20/38)(-1) = .47368 - .52632 = -.05264, or -5.26%.

I would think you'd make the maximum outside bet something like $25. This wouldn't even come close to a single number payout and you still carry quite an edge on it, thus you're making more money per spin.

EDIT:

Quote: sabre

I want to be in a position where I consider 5%+ house edge wagers to just be "trading dollars back and forth".

It's stunning how little you seem to know of the math of the game you're offering.

My thoughts exactly on the 5%+...

First duplicate ever... not sure how it happened as I just edited the first one? My mistake...

Quote: sabre

It's stunning how little you seem to know of the math of the game you're offering.

That comes from 12 years of Catholic schools. The nuns told us that math was not important, only religion and English were important! :)

Quote: Romes

I would think you'd make the maximum outside bet something like $25. This wouldn't even come close to a single number payout and you still carry quite an edge on it, thus you're making more money per spin.

EDIT:

My thoughts exactly on the 5%+...

So, let's see if I got this right..... The sign would say:

Outside: $5 minimum per-spot / $25 maximum per-spot

Inside; $5 minimum (any $ combo) $5 maximum per-bet

???

Quote: Riva

That comes from 12 years of Catholic schools. The nuns told us that math was not important, only religion and English were important! :)

Actually gaming math only works if and only if the game is played repeatedly for a long time (i.e. many many hands). How long is your event? If too short, the computed HE may never show. Think about this: every new casino games, all with reasonable HE derived by "math experts", must go through 1-3 months of field trial to find out if the game could REALLY "make enough money". If the jackpot get hit on the first day, the game is out. Don't have to feel bad about your math. Just use the traditional, popular, proven games and follow the well-known, simple rules, then you have a higher chance of getting good returns. If you're not keep your casino for a long time, any positive HE is good. Your math is fine.

Quote: Riva

Hmmmm? Interesting.

Again, my gut tells me this might add a new layer of complexity to the program for our dealers with $10 outside and $5 inside. As I said, to me, outside bets are just trading dollars irrespective of the amount of the wager. Most of our money made is on the inside.

Not to argue, I'm looking at this from a player's perspective as well. It's very easy to grasp a statement that says "all bets $5" or, "all bets $10". They know exactly what they are getting in to without having them ponder why we allow $10 on outside bets and just $5 on inside. Having to explain things a zillion times per-night takes time--and "time" is our most precious commodity.

Well if your dealers can't handle it then they can't handle it. Roulette is a complicated game. But wouldn't you have your best dealers on the high limit game anyway? Do you really feel that your BEST dealers couldn't handle "$5 on the inside $10 on the outside".

Quote: bigfoot66

Well if your dealers can't handle it then they can't handle it. Roullette is a complicated game. But wouldn't you have your best dealers on the high limit game anyway? Do you really feel that your BEST dealers couldn't handle "$5 on the inside $10 on the outside".

Our very best dealers are on roulette and craps. In fact, we rent pro dealers to handle some of the craps. Now that we have yet another 14' craps table donated to the school, we'll have to rent/train even more. It's worth it in clover though. These tables are virtual ATM's.

I am not having difficulty with the concept of allowing bigger wagers on the outside. Many of our players are newbies to roulette and we actually have to explain what an outside bet is versus an inside bet (honest).

Then, we have to tell them that there is a $3 minimum bets on the outside--for each spot--up to a maximum of $5 per-spot.

Then, we have to tell them that the minimum on the inside is also $3 however, it can be spread over any combination of bets, so long as $3 is in action.

Then, we have to tell them that no single bet on the inside can be greater than $5.

That's a lot of "splain'n".

Quote: Riva

So, let's see if I got this right..... The sign would say:

Outside: $5 minimum per-spot / $25 maximum per-spot

Inside; $5 minimum (any $ combo) $5 maximum per-bet

???

Yes, something of this nature. Either way as your post after this one described you'll have to explain the game to someone who's a complete newbie. Doesn't matter what your denominations are you have to tell them the same info about inside vs outside; so that should have little bearing on your limits.

I think it's crappy that you're not letting people actually play the inside though. The way you have it set up (5 min 5 max) you don't have to explain spreading your action around because you can't. You have to bet one $5 chip on a number, line, or corner. If it's not too complicated for your dealers I would think you should go $1 min $5 max on the inside so people can take 5 single dollar chips and spread them out on the inside. Anyone who plays roulette normally won't like your game because it's not really roulette on the inside.

Quote: Romes

Yes, something of this nature. Either way as your post after this one described you'll have to explain the game to someone who's a complete newbie. Doesn't matter what your denominations are you have to tell them the same info about inside vs outside; so that should have little bearing on your limits.

I think it's crappy that you're not letting people actually play the inside though. The way you have it set up (5 min 5 max) you don't have to explain spreading your action around because you can't. You have to bet one $5 chip on a number, line, or corner. If it's not too complicated for your dealers I would think you should go $1 min $5 max on the inside so people can take 5 single dollar chips and spread them out on the inside. Anyone who plays roulette normally won't like your game because it's not really roulette on the inside.

Not sure I fully understand....Currently, on the outside, we have a $3 minimum / $5 maximum--PER SPOT. So if they wanted to bet say "red", the minimum bet would be $3. If they wanted say red & even, they would have $6 in play.

As for the inside, it's the same thing, specifically: $3 minimum /$5 maximum. However, the wagers on the inside can be $1, just so long as $3 is in action. As for the $5 maximum, no single bet can be greater than $5. However, a player could have 37 $5 bets on the inside and we don't care.

Up until a few years ago, we simply set any/all bets at $1 / $5, either inside or out. You had 20 players all betting $1 chips all over the place and-they were all casino chips, not unique colored roulette chips. It was madness. The, one day I had about 3 hours to kill and went to the MGM Grand. It was there that I learned of the inside/outside betting structure and immediately put it in place at our events. It immediately quadrupled our profits on roulette to the point where we built a second 20' table. http://i62.tinypic.com/289zonc.jpg And, as mentioned, we now have 3 roulette ensembles.

Quote: Riva

...As for the inside, it's the same thing, specifically: $3 minimum /$5 maximum. However, the wagers on the inside can be $1, just so long as $3 is in action. As for the $5 maximum, no single bet can be greater than $5. However, a player could have 37 $5 bets on the inside and we don't care.

Ahh, I'm not sure where I thought I read that 5 min / 5 max on the inside was single bets. This, of course, is much better and more considered "normal." My apologies if I misread something.

Quote: Riva

Up until a few years ago, we simply set any/all bets at $1 / $5, either inside or out. You had 20 players all betting $1 chips all over the place and-they were all casino chips, not unique colored roulette chips. It was madness. The, one day I had about 3 hours to kill and went to the MGM Grand. It was there that I learned of the inside/outside betting structure and immediately put it in place at our events. It immediately quadrupled our profits on roulette to the point where we built a second 20' table. http://i62.tinypic.com/289zonc.jpg And, as mentioned, we now have 3 roulette ensembles.

Yeah from the beginning of the thread I thought you had it set up 'fairly' well. I was just more confused why you'd allow someone to bet $5 on a single number ($120 max payout for your 24-1 odds), but you would limit any PER SPOT outside bet to $5 max. If you're willing to pay $120 on the inside, the outside bets carry more than a 5% advantage for the house so you should let the outside betters go higher... This is when I suggested perhaps $25 on the outside. This would absolutely make you more money in the long run, or "by the math."

Quote: Romes

Ahh, I'm not sure where I thought I read that 5 min / 5 max on the inside was single bets. This, of course, is much better and more considered "normal." My apologies if I misread something.


Yeah from the beginning of the thread I thought you had it set up 'fairly' well. I was just more confused why you'd allow someone to bet $5 on a single number ($120 max payout for your 24-1 odds), but you would limit any PER SPOT outside bet to $5 max. If you're willing to pay $120 on the inside, the outside bets carry more than a 5% advantage for the house so you should let the outside betters go higher... This is when I suggested perhaps $25 on the outside. This would absolutely make you more money in the long run, or "by the math."

Actually, I did suggest earlier making everything on the inside a $5 min/max wager. On second thought, I feel this may be too steep for our typical player who are more comfortable making five $1 wagers on roulette versus one $5 wager. Most enter the room purchasing about $50 in chips and hope for the best.

All that said, I think our new 9' table is a good place to test this out without changing anything at the two 20' tables. Specifically, keeping with a "high roller" theme, the outside would read:

$5 minimum /$25 maximum (per spot)

The inside would read

$5 minimum (any combination) / $5 maximum any single bet.

If there are better words to describe this, please suggest.

Quote: Riva

However, a player could have 37 $5 bets on the inside and we don't care.

I don't know about don't care, but if I had people wanting to place that bet, I'd take their action. Giddily.

("Hmm... do I get to keep $185 of their dollars, or only $60?")

Quote: Dieter

I don't know about don't care, but if I had people wanting to place that bet, I'd take their action. Giddily.

("Hmm... do I get to keep $185 of their dollars, or only $60?")

Oh, we're happy when people play the inside. Strangely enough, at our games, it's very rare for 2 people to put a chip on the same number straight up. Superstition? Maybe they feel that the spot is "taken"? Who knows! In any event, when a straight up number hits, typically it's only one $125 payout.

Quote: Riva

Specifically, keeping with a "high roller" theme, the outside would read:

$5 minimum /$25 maximum (per spot)

The inside would read

$5 minimum (any combination) / $5 maximum any single bet.

The wording seems fine. The percentage is definitely there.


The biggest worry is that people will go broke too quickly and want to rebuy, consuming your $15k limit, and reducing your pizza sales potential.
The second biggest worry is that people will win too much, but your cashout limit protects you there. (They'll keep playing, would be my expectation.)

It's still possible to lay at most 5 straight + 20 split + 20 corner on a lucky number (125+240+120 out, if I remember your payouts), plus 5 on the street (8:1? 40 out). That can be a bit of action per player, but you've got a 34% edge. As long as the wheel is fair, you should be fine... but since this is the high limit wheel, have a pit boss around to watch for past posting and to change out the ball & croupier if things seem to start getting too hot.


All roulette bets must be placed with roulette chips, yes? (This would protect against a "Savannah", although capping and pinching are still viable.)


On a wholly unrelated note, how do you protect against someone cashing out the limit twice? Do you enforce a per individual buy-in limit (and how)? Are you doing something to say that only people who buy in can cash out?

Quote: Dieter

The wording seems fine. The percentage is definitely there.


The biggest worry is that people will go broke too quickly and want to rebuy, consuming your $15k limit, and reducing your pizza sales potential.
The second biggest worry is that people will win too much, but your cashout limit protects you there. (They'll keep playing, would be my expectation.)

It's still possible to lay at most 5 straight + 20 split + 20 corner on a lucky number (125+240+120 out, if I remember your payouts), plus 5 on the street (8:1? 40 out). That can be a bit of action per player, but you've got a 34% edge. As long as the wheel is fair, you should be fine... but since this is the high limit wheel, have a pit boss around to watch for past posting and to change out the ball & croupier if things seem to start getting too hot.


All roulette bets must be placed with roulette chips, yes? (This would protect against a "Savannah", although capping and pinching are still viable.)


On a wholly unrelated note, how do you protect against someone cashing out the limit twice? Do you enforce a per individual buy-in limit (and how)? Are you doing something to say that only people who buy in can cash out?

As for the wager limit....some new regulations for charitable gaming were recently put in place by the Governor. These rules allow e that under certain circumstances, for the house to be able to sell up to $30,000 in chips per-day. This would only apply to special church or community festivals like what we put on. It would not apply to the poker rooms because they are pretty much an anomaly of the charitable gaming regs. Nevertheless, this is HUGE, HUGE, HUGE for us, as we regularly sell out $15,000 by 9:00 PM every night.

We have no plans to increase our table limits because of the 30k per-day in chip sales. That would mean we'd have the same problem we have now, specifically: being unable to sell chips to people after 9:00 PM. And, as mentioned, when we can't sell chips, they typically don;' come in to the tent. That means we lose the admission revenue, as well as the beer and pizza revenue. Again, the 30K is HUGE!

As far as roulette chips....answer yes. They are unique roulette chips and not chips that can be used anywhere else in the tent. Players buy in right at the table using house money (chips) they purchased at the cashier's table near the entrance. We buy back the roulette chips with house chips when the player leaves the game.

However, as I posted earlier, it was not always that way. Years ago, the old timers that ran the game used house chips. I fought them on it for years. Players would put just a few dollars down and nobody knew whose bet belong to who. There were fights and confusion galore. Really, what is boiled down to was they were lazy and did not want to continuously muck chips. It costs us thousands in lost income per-night. Finally, they stopped showing up and, the first thing I did was to buy unique roulette chips. It immediately quadrupled our profits on roulette the first night. And, with out 20' double roulette, the person on the wheel in the middle is the mucker and it works just fine.

Please explain what a "Savannah" is.

As for cashing out twice..there's not much we can do about it. Savvy players simply go to the cage several times during the night. or, they give the chips to a pal to cash in for them. or, they simply sell their excess chips to a player on the floor who needs chips. Years ago, that state required that each player have a card. The card would note how much a player bought and how much they cashed in. The players knew how to get around that one too so, it was no longer required.

We have no processes regarding an individual purchasing or cashing in chips. We do however, know to the dollar, how much is out on the floor at any time and, what our maximum exposure is at check out time. It's a simple formula: chips sold plus any fills. We have NEVER, in 20 years of doing this, had to reach in to reserve cash drawer at the cashiers table.

Finally, as far as the wheel being fair, the answer is yes. We own our own 32" wheels and they are ALWAYS kept under lock and key when not in use. FYI...we used to rent roulette wheels and, I shared a while back, how a jilted wheel was put in to play during an event a few years ago. It was quite the caper and, I'm 100% certain, the rental company was in on the hoist. (long story).

Ummm... big picture..... unless you are being outright cheated..... at the ridiculous house edges your games have..... and the ridiculous low limit placed on winnings..... LET THEM BET AS MUCH AS THEY WANT on Roulette....

Quote: SOOPOO

Ummm... big picture..... unless you are being outright cheated..... at the ridiculous house edges your games have..... and the ridiculous low limit placed on winnings..... LET THEM BET AS MUCH AS THEY WANT on Roulette....

We have tried to have this conversation with RIVA before with no luck. He is afraid that the school board will not tolerate any variance.

Riva why not say "Minimum bet $5, Maximum aggregate payout per player per round $200"

They can bet as much as they want but you are not gonna slide 'em more than $200 in chips each round. This also protects you in case someone gets the wise idea to bet $5 on the number, $5 on each of 4 pairs that includes the number, $5 on the street, etc to where you have larger exposure than you think.

Quote: bigfoot66

We have tried to have this conversation with RIVA before with no luck. He is afraid that the school board will not tolerate any variance.

Riva why not say "Minimum bet $5, Maximum aggregate payout per player per round $200"

They can bet as much as they want but you are not gonna slide 'em more than $200 in chips each round. This also protects you in case someone gets the wise idea to bet $5 on the number, $5 on each of 4 pairs that includes the number, $5 on the street, etc to where you have larger exposure than you think.

You're right about the Board. They are so tight they still have their First Communion money!

Actually, an aggregate might pizz off players. Plus, the dealers would not understand it. To be candidly honest, if a player were to win $200, the last thing I/we want to have happen is for them to leave the table. Yes, they might win more but, more likely than not, the longer they stay, the more we are almost certain to win back. The only thing working against us in winning back the loot is the clock. When the clock hits 2:00 AM, it's all black.

Quote: Riva

Please explain what a "Savannah" is.

It's a particular type of past-posting sleight of hand cheat. It relies on stacking multiple denomination chips (high denomination hidden on the bottom), and then switching it out for a lower denomination bet if the bet loses. If your roulette chips are all the same denomination and you only accept roulette chips in play at the roulette table, you have nothing to worry about - the move can't work.

If you do allow multiple denominations, your exposure is still limited by the table limit, and the maximum denomination you allow at the roulette table. I imagine that you might allow $1 or $5 chips at the "high roller" roulette table; the likely limit of your exposure to this cheat (say, a three chip stack) would be $8 per round.

My understanding is that you're running 3 dealers per table - 1 for the wheel and 1 for each layout - providing further scrutiny and reducing the oportunity for someone to try the move. If you see someone grabbing away a losing bet, that's your cue to watch extremely closely from then on.


The formal description

Quote: Dieter

It's a particular type of past-posting sleight of hand cheat. It relies on stacking multiple denomination chips (high denomination hidden on the bottom), and then switching it out for a lower denomination bet if the bet loses. If your roulette chips are all the same denomination and you only accept roulette chips in play at the roulette table, you have nothing to worry about - the move can't work.

If you do allow multiple denominations, your exposure is still limited by the table limit, and the maximum denomination you allow at the roulette table. I imagine that you might allow $1 or $5 chips at the "high roller" roulette table; the likely limit of your exposure to this cheat (say, a three chip stack) would be $8 per round.

My understanding is that you're running 3 dealers per table - 1 for the wheel and 1 for each layout - providing further scrutiny and reducing the opportunity for someone to try the move. If you see someone grabbing away a losing bet, that's your cue to watch extremely closely from then on.


The formal description

Thanks. Typically on the inside, the wagers are either $1 or $5, nothing in between.

And, if somebody played more than $5 on the inside, we would only pay on the $5 limit.

Having the dealer right on top of the layout makes it really hard to cheat. Not that it has not occurred but it is difficult. I mentioned in another thread, we did have a fellow jab us for $5,000 in about 20 minutes using a bogus wheel that we rented from a supplier. While he won $5,000, he only got out of the room with $500. Man was he corked!

Quote: Riva

Thanks. Typically on the inside, the wagers are either $1 or $5, nothing in between.

And, if somebody played more than $5 on the inside, we would only pay on the $5 limit.

The particular cheat is usually done on one of the 2:1 spots. Still, with a dedicated dealer for each layout and another for the wheel, it's much harder to pull, and really not worth it for $50 or so (in my opinion).

Quote: Dieter

The particular cheat is usually done on one of the 2:1 spots. Still, with a dedicated dealer for each layout and another for the wheel, it's much harder to pull, and really not worth it for $50 or so (in my opinion).

On a 2:1 spot, the most they would be paid is $10 because we have a $5 max bet limit. Also, we have uniformed police at our events (real cops). Most of the trouble comes from people drinking too much.

Quote: Riva

On a 2:1 spot, the most they would be paid is $10 because we have a $5 max bet limit.

Many places consider the 2:1 column bets as "outside", rather than inside, allowing the higher limit.

Apparently, you're well protected against this particular cheat.

Quote: Dieter

Many places consider the 2:1 column bets as "outside", rather than inside, allowing the higher limit.

Apparently, you're well protected against this particular cheat.

We treat column bets as "outside". And, as far as being well-protected, we have an additional weapon in our arsenal; excommunication! :)

Quote: Riva

We treat column bets as "outside".

I guess I don't understand how the $5 limit would come into effect then.

You were discussing that you're changing the sign to $5 min/$25 single spot outside; and the 2:1 spot is outside, so it doesn't seem to me that it would be limited to a $10 payout.

Quote: Dieter

I guess I don't understand how the $5 limit would come into effect then.

You were discussing that you're changing the sign to $5 min/$25 single spot outside; and the 2:1 spot is outside, so it doesn't seem to me that it would be limited to a $10 payout.

No, fully understand. Was referencing current wager-limits. If we went to $25 on the outside then yes, we could get stung for $50. However, if that were to occur, we have an even more powerful deterrent than the cops or excommunication..."prayer" (immediately before burning at the stake) JUST KIDDING!