Arizona Stud opened at Red Wind Casino, Lacey, WA on 8/6

Arizona Stud opened at Red Wind Casino 10 days ago. Stephen How has a good write up on the math and the rather intuitive optimal play strategy:

Arizona Stud on Discount Gambling

This game debuted at the 2013 Raving's Table Game Conference and has received many good comments from forum members, thanks to you all.

I have been to Red Wind three separate times to train dealers, support the opening and silently observe the plays. I want to report to you that both dealers and players like the game, the drop and hold are as predicted; there has been no issues in the past 10 days. This is a 5-card stud poker game with two high payout side bets. In the past 10 days, a couple of Full House on 2-Pair-Plus were hit (50 to 1) and 4 Flushes on Player Bad Beat (200 to 1) were hit. The casino management told me for a new game, the overall progress is very good.

Red Wind Casino has about 20 tables. It's a great place to visit. The dealers are super friendly. With you Red player card, all restaurants give you 50% discount ( a prime rib sandwich costs $5 with discount) and drinks are free. While smoking is allowed, they are building a smoke-free area now. Come visit and play Arizona Stud.

Red Wind Casino, Lacey, Washington

Wayne

Hi Etablegames,

Congrats on your Arizona Stud.
It is a very good game, I like it.

Thanks, Stephen.

Best of luck with your game! I like the various twists added to it.

Them that can do, actually CAN DO. Congratulations etablegames GREAT GAME !

Welcome back, Buzz and a great thank U.

etablegames,

Many congrats on the placement, and especially at the good reception. Many more!

I played it at Red Wind, love the game. So weird and different, in a good way. Have a lot if fun.

Quote: RoyalBJ

I played it at Red Wind, love the game. So weird and different, in a good way. Have a lot if fun.

Plus lots of money in royalties.

At Red Wind, besides the comp meals, players can sell every play point, 1 for 1, no discount. I got $57 rebate for playing minimum on slots and tables.

Congrats Wayne. Nicely done on the evolution of your game over the last few years and your placement.


ZCore13

Thanks. Hope to have Arizona Stud in Arizona :-)))

Arizona Stud in Arizona is like Craps in Anywhere.

Congratulations on a good start, Wayne.

Folks, this is a really good stud poker game played against the dealer, not a paytable.

Good luck!!!

Thanks, Lucky,

Yes, this is the first and only 5 card stud poker game that a player plays against the dealer, not a payout table.

I have suggested players to compare Arizona Stud to the regular blackjack in their features (except that to many, blackjack is boring, but AZ Stud is not). For example, players act before the dealer; players get to see dealer's one upcard before making the final fold/raise decision; players can raise 4x with good hand and fold with bad hand. These are player's advantages. On the other hand, the house advantage is deciding which 2 of the 3 hole cards to use after seeing all cards. The math just balances out elegantly with a low house edge of 1.34%, a blackjack type of game HE. Players have a lot of fun making card choice and betting size decisions.

For casinos, since this is a 5 card game, not 7, the higher speed of play and zero dealer errors make up the HE. The initial hold is estimated at 25 to low 30's%. It's still too early to offer the actual as players are trying to figure out the game yet.

It looks like you got a hit on your hand but it is too early to make that call. Well done and best wishes on your success!

Quote: etablegames

For casinos, since this is a 5 card game, not 7, the higher speed of play and zero dealer errors make up the HE.

"zero dealer errors", really? Hard to believe. May be there were just not reported.

Red Wind is a great property for a new poker game trial.....congrats on getting the trial!

It is too early to call the trial a success, but a lot of games never really get going after an initial week of hype. If players are coming back to play at a locals property like Red Wind, that will be your best early indicator that the game is "hooking" players after they try it. Red Wind is one of the few properties in WA that has Let It Ride still on the floor & AZ Stud may steal some players from there.

Don't pay too much attention to the early hold numbers and here is to hoping for increasing drop numbers as the trial moves forward!

Arizona Stud continues to perform well at Red Wind casino. Red Wind has received 3-year exclusivity in the area for Arizona Stud. The only people complaining about the deal are the RWC dealers: they can not play the game in the neighborhood casinos.

Quote: etablegames

Arizona Stud continues to perform well at Red Wind casino. Red Wind has received 3-year exclusivity in the area for Arizona Stud. The only people complaining about the deal are the RWC dealers: they can not play the game in the neighborhood casinos.

The Redwind is a great casino, that being said I was there today from 10:00 am to 2:00pm playing blackjack.

For my last two hours I opened and sat at first base at BJ-7 (Straight Blackjack) right next to the Arizona Stud table which opened at the same time. I went over and grabbed a tell sheet on the game as I'm an old stud player from many years back who loves the game.

For two hours, not a soul even stopped to look at the table. As usual the blackjack tables were full of course and I got Jeremy the pit boss to open the BJ table so I could play. (long time customer at the RedWind) So when I decided to leave, I sat at the table and played a couple of hands just to get a feel for the game. Deanna was dealing, and the game flows smoothly. Stud is a game of pairs usually a high pair is a winner and acknowledging that a couple of hands isn't enough play to get a sense of the odds. I don't think I will be returning to the table.

House advantage is too high is the feeling I got from the game just from the couple of hands I played. the side bet doesn't take a mathematician to see clearly that the house advantage is way above Roulette, probably somewhere between 7 and 10% so don't expect a lot of experienced players to be drawn to it. The house advantage overall I expect to be somewhere in the actual 1.5 to 2% range. A real gamblers game it is, but your experienced players will avoid it. Nice high payouts on the long term, but you will lose a lot getting to those payouts.....

Personally I will love to read Mike Shakelford's take on the game when he gets a chance to review it and post the real odds over on Wizard of Odds and best strategies for it....

From my experience at the RedWind, the table will get some play when there is table pressure, (lots of players and not enough seats) but given the choice, most experienced players will pass.

Egilman.

Welcome to the Forum Egilman! I agree with you on Red Wind, it is a quality locals casino and their table games team is a big part of the reason. Are they close to completion on the casino expansion?

While your report was probably not the positive data point etablegames would have hoped for, all feedback/reports from the floor are valuable to developers that simply can't be present all the time. Very cool of you to post what you saw onsite.

Deanna is one of RW's best dealers so it is no surprise the game flowed smoothly. What would you change on the main game to make it appear to be less of a "house" game? While I haven't played the game in person yet, I did like the game when I demo'd at Raving and will be back up in WA in mid October and plan to give the game a try at that point.

As a comparative, do you normally enjoy volatile poker variants such as Ultimate Texas Hold'em, Mississippi Stud or Let It Ride? Those games like AZ Stud do take a certain personality of player to be a good fit. I would guess that hard core quality BJ players would not like any of those games & I wonder if that is the make up of the players on the floor at Red Wind midweek from opening to early afternoon. I do know the player mix changes dramatically on Fri/Sat night when the boys from the military base come out to play!

In any event, appreciate your contribution and hope you keep up the field reports. I hope to get a game back on the floor at Red Wind some day so perhaps you can provide some ground recon there as well!

Quote: Egilman

House advantage is too high is the feeling I got from the game just from the couple of hands I played. the side bet doesn't take a mathematician to see clearly that the house advantage is way above Roulette, probably somewhere between 7 and 10% so don't expect a lot of experienced players to be drawn to it. The house advantage overall I expect to be somewhere in the actual 1.5 to 2% range. A real gamblers game it is, but your experienced players will avoid it. Nice high payouts on the long term, but you will lose a lot getting to those payouts.....

Personally I will love to read Mike Shakelford's take on the game when he gets a chance to review it and post the real odds over on Wizard of Odds and best strategies for it....

From my experience at the RedWind, the table will get some play when there is table pressure, (lots of players and not enough seats) but given the choice, most experienced players will pass.

Egilman.

While I don't doubt Mike will analyze the game at some point, Stephen How has done a pretty comprehensive analysis here if you want to look at it. He's showing the HE at 1.34%, so really not bad.

I went back the next day and played a couple of hands of blackjack, (three hours of hands, turned 40 into 160) ;-)

Started at BJ-7 and switched to BJ-9. The house was under some pressure with both ultimate texas tables open and PaiGow having two tables at 10.00 with waiting lists, this was 1:00 pm and I stayed till 3:00. Lots of people and the place felt crowded. I saw two people sit at the table and play for about 45 minutes dropping around two hundred, and another sit down and drop around 70.

they got up and left the casino. (from 1st base at BJ-9 you get a good look straight to the front door.) I watched them walk right out the door. I saw the crew shut the table down around 2:30, Inquiry led me to believe that the table just wasn't drawing players, those were three of the five players that tried it that day...

Your right, I'm not an Ultimate Texas player and let it ride is for the birds, although I will sit and play Three Card poker from time to time, and Pai Gow every once in a while... (but that has gone to crap since they turned on the OCR) Besides, nobody who plays at the RedWind knows how to really play the game, that's why the house doesn't charge a commission..

But my best game is BlackJack and from what I understand the dealers have been instructed to cut deeper on the reshuffles now. they were using a 50-55% cut on double deck pitch before, but now they are using a 60-65% cut.....

That makes the game more attractive for the card players....

It can get a little rowdy on friday and saturday nights when the drunks come in in droves, but it has gotten a lot mellower over the last few years....

I like seven card stud best, but they only play it at muckleshoot and that isn't very often.... Personally, I wish this texas hold'em crap would go back to texas.....

The Expansion is coming along, the basic steel framing is done and they are drying it in now.... I expect the exterior walls to be going up in the next few weeks.... I will appreciate that it will take most of the non-smokers off the gaming floor, which means no more asking to have the non-smoking restrictions taken off tables... (I expect it to be similar to Muckleshoots non-smoking building, 200 tables and 20 players)

Right now they are also in the middle of re-configuring almost half the slot machines, what exactly for I don't remember, I remember being told but slots aren't really that important to me, besides, they have some of the tightest slot machines in the state...

I love going there and playing, a good way to waste time cheaply...

Went yesterday, arrived at 1:00pm. Pai Gow was full with a waiting list, and they were using waiting lists on the blackjack tables!. Pressure was heavy, it took 20 mnutes for the wife to get a seat at Pai Gow and 45 minutes for me to get a seat at a BJ table. The Arizona Stud table was closed when I got there, it was closed when I left at 6:00pm.

Like most new table games, the initial press of interest has waned. The dealers don't even discuss it anymore....

Will be having dinner there tonight, and will probably go on Friday to play a little, will see what happens then.

Seems like it is following the usual table games course.....

It is impressive to see a game introduced like this, it is a hard thing to do just to get a game on the floor. But most gamblers are sharp about one thing, ROI. If they don't feel that the return is there, they leave a game real fast.......

Table games must be simple, easy to play, with an almost even chance of winning. Big bonus's are nice, but a basic return is what players want. What keeps a game on the floor is butts in the seats. Give players a game with a simple basic condition for winning and an easy strategy for playing and you don't need bonus's or large payouts to get the butts and keep them in the seats. Three Card Poker and Pai Gow are good examples of that, Blackjack an even better example.

Seen a lot of them come and go, Texas Shootout, 4 Card Poker, Let It Ride (not on the Redwind floor anymore), Bad Beat BlackJack and a few others. Still a bit early to tell, I haven't seen it with the house under heavy pressure yet, but it's got all the early signs of going the same way as the rest of them.....

Keep plugging away, the next great table game could be right around the corner.....

What replaced LIR at Red Wind? They were one of the few left in WA that still had it on the floor.

I don't quite understand the perception that AZ Stud with a 1.37% HE being a game that doesn't offer a good player experience. I definitely will need to sit down & play when I am up there next month.

Egil do you remember Easy Over Under back in 2011? That was mine & it crashed & burned in 55 days despite a very supportive deal staff. The game was flawed & I just don't think dice & cards together are a good place to start with a new game. I have a revised version, that almost got on a floor in WA last year, but I have moved on to blacjack game concepts now.

I am going to need to study discountgambling.net return table to see if I can get my arms around the lack of play you are seeing. Have you asked your favorite dealer what they think, off the record of course?

I really like AZ Stud as a new Stud game played against the dealer, so I am a bit befuddled by what you are seeing. Thanks for the field reports & perhaps we will bump into each other at Red Wind (or maybe we did meet back in 2011....I was onsite a lot during the trial there).

Quote: Paradigm

What replaced LIR at Red Wind? They were one of the few left in WA that still had it on the floor.

I don't quite understand the perception that AZ Stud with a 1.37% HE being a game that doesn't offer a good player experience. I definitely will need to sit down & play when I am up there next month.

Egil do you remember Easy Over Under back in 2011? That was mine & it crashed & burned in 55 days despite a very supportive deal staff. The game was flawed & I just don't think dice & cards together are a good place to start with a new game. I have a revised version, that almost got on a floor in WA last year, but I have moved on to blacjack game concepts now.

I am going to need to study discountgambling.net return table to see if I can get my arms around the lack of play you are seeing. Have you asked your favorite dealer what they think, off the record of course?

I really like AZ Stud as a new Stud game played against the dealer, so I am a bit befuddled by what you are seeing. Thanks for the field reports & perhaps we will bump into each other at Red Wind (or maybe we did meet back in 2011....I was onsite a lot during the trial there).

Is that 1.34% "House Edge" on discounts website actually the HE or the EOR?

Actually it is a 1.34% and that is the HE (not the EoR), just looked at the discountgambling.net website again.

That being said, Stephen shows a "basic strategy below" on the site that returns 1.7% so maybe optimal strategy is too hard to implement and players are playing the game way wrong and getting killed.....not sure.

Either way, 3CP has an HE close to 3% on the main game, so it can't be the HE that is the problem. If the problem is the strategy is too hard....it can be fixed or players can be educated (the former being much easier than than the latter). If the game play is entertaining.......which as a poker stud game with multiple decision points, it seems like it would be fun to play, then a massaging of game rules to simplify strategy may be the game tweak required.

But what do I know, successful premium games are not my strong suit at the moment :-).

Quote: Paradigm

What replaced LIR at Red Wind? They were one of the few left in WA that still had it on the floor.

Not sure it was a rapid change, they added a third PG table and a second Ultimate Poker table almost at the same time.

Quote: Paradigm

I don't quite understand the perception that AZ Stud with a 1.37% HE being a game that doesn't offer a good player experience. I definitely will need to sit down & play when I am up there next month.

That's if they have it open, it was closed yesterday also all day. It isn't the mathematical HE, it's the player perceived HE that gets ya. ROI, Return on Investment is critical, if you don't have players winning a little on the low side they won't play a lot on the high side. I sat and watched three people in the space of 1.5 hours drop 270.00 playing table minimums... Player perceives that money is going out and nothing returns... (not even a smidgen of perception of value) They are not going to wait around losing money until a bonus hits, nor are they going to lose money trying to learn an optimal strategy.

Quote: Paradigm

Egil do you remember Easy Over Under back in 2011? That was mine & it crashed & burned in 55 days despite a very supportive deal staff. The game was flawed & I just don't think dice & cards together are a good place to start with a new game. I have a revised version, that almost got on a floor in WA last year, but I have moved on to blackjack game concepts now.

No I don't, there was a period back then that I really couldn't afford to go to casinos... (I believe Bad Beat BJ was gone in just under five weeks)

Quote: Paradigm

I am going to need to study discountgambling.net return table to see if I can get my arms around the lack of play you are seeing. Have you asked your favorite dealer what they think, off the record of course?

Yes, the perception of the few dealers willing to talk is the game is too hard for the average Jane or Joe (usually a senior citizen) to understand the optimal play. The swing of the game revolves around the low pair AK combinations, that is your decision point to pay or play. As a former stud player I understand this, but how many players out there know how to play stud? Very few....

Quote: Paradigm

I really like AZ Stud as a new Stud game played against the dealer, so I am a bit befuddled by what you are seeing. Thanks for the field reports & perhaps we will bump into each other at Red Wind (or maybe we did meet back in 2011....I was onsite a lot during the trial there).

Understand one thing, just to play the game costs, win or lose, to have a seat at the table costs. That's what the ante brings the house. A player that doesn't have a clear idea of what wins and what doesn't isn't going to play long enough to find out when it is costing him everytime a card hits the table. That is player perceived ROI, it's way too high. An experienced player will have no problem, but to a senior citizen having a day away from the home? not a chance. And they are a pretty savvy group of gamblers...

Most of the RW's players are seniors at least during the week. It's a 50/50 mix on weekends.

You have the same problem with Three Card Poker, but, TCP has a simple strategy (Q-6 or better stay in, below fold) doesn't get any easier than that. Blackjack? Hit to soft 17 else stand..... simple basic strategy. (you can fine tune it, and as you gain experience most do, but it needs a simple winning strategy)

Ultimate Texas has the same problem, but Ultimate has an advantage, it is tied to the very popular Texas Holdem poker games played everywhere that you can watch on TV. It draws players away from the poker tables. otherwise it would have gone the way of the rest of the difficult strategy table games....

No problem with the reports, it's my home casino, and from time to time I live there ;-)

I think your analogy on player strategy for RW is spot on......I was told UTH struggled at RW for the first 12-18 months despite being popular at other WA tribals/card rooms....it was too hard. The tie to Texas Hold'em kept it on the floor until players there figured it out.....now they have two tables.

You mentioned Bad Beat Blackack, what other BJ bonus bets are on the floor besides Lucky Ladies these days?

Back on topic: what would you change in AZ Stud to make the optimal strategy more intuitive? Maybe allow higher raises on any pocket Ace Face hand or higher later in the hand. Maybe by getting players to make a 2X or 3X raise after the flop with the premium hands gets them closer to optimal play.

Here's another one for you, you said you liked Stud & if you learned proper strategy to play to a 1.32%, would you play AZ Stud or is the HE too high compared to the .5% - .7% HE in BJ (can't remember RW's base BJ rules off hand) for your liking? That is to say, if you avoided the side bets is the main game attractive to you as a player?

Quote: Paradigm

I think your analogy on player strategy for RW is spot on......I was told UTH struggled at RW for the first 12-18 months despite being popular at other WA tribals/card rooms....it was too hard. The tie to Texas Hold'em kept it on the floor until players there figured it out.....now they have two tables.

Do you think RW would give Arizona Stud 12-18 months on the floor to prove itself?

Quote: Paradigm

I think your analogy on player strategy for RW is spot on......I was told UTH struggled at RW for the first 12-18 months despite being popular at other WA tribals/card rooms....it was too hard. The tie to Texas Hold'em kept it on the floor until players there figured it out.....now they have two tables.

They have two tables but one is closed most of the time, they only open it when there is pressure on the one table that is opened everyday. and yeah it did take a while to catch on. but it is still only played by the high end players.

Quote: Paradigm

You mentioned Bad Beat Blackack, what other BJ bonus bets are on the floor besides Lucky Ladies these days?

The only BJ games they have are four LL tables (with three usually open), one straight table and two Spanish.

Quote: Paradigm

Back on topic: what would you change in AZ Stud to make the optimal strategy more intuitive?

My ideal would be to deal two and flop four taking the best five. Player and dealer play is then identical. But, that would raise the HE a bit but the player perception would be even-steven. (but that would make the game too much like UTH, wouldn't go over well )

Quote: Paradigm

Maybe allow higher raises on any pocket Ace Face hand or higher later in the hand. Maybe by getting players to make a 2X or 3X raise after the flop with the premium hands gets them closer to optimal play.

It isn't the betting schema, it the player understanding of the game.

Quote: Paradigm

Here's another one for you, you said you liked Stud & if you learned proper strategy to play to a 1.32%, would you play AZ Stud or is the HE too high compared to the .5% - .7% HE in BJ (can't remember RW's base BJ rules off hand) for your liking? That is to say, if you avoided the side bets is the main game attractive to you as a player?

I would throw some dollars at it from time to time the HE is lower that TCP it's just knowing when to place that 3x, 4x bet. which is a simple matter of knowing what is a winning hand in the game. I know it's a faced ace or low pair, jacks or better you bet the max. A pair of faces is the decision point. So straight up, you always check the opening unless you have a pair, toss if you don't have at least an ace face or pair of faces post flop. You should have at least one winning hand by the time the eighth hand is dealt. 8 hands to get to a winner = 40.00 when you get the chance to raise (a solid betting hand) it should always be the max raise.

On the light end don't approach the table with less than 200.00 is the way I would approach it and never play the sides...

Basic strat? anything lower that say a Q-9 toss, Q-9 to A-K check, A-K to low pair, 1x, low pair to J-J or better, 2x, J-J or better, max it out.

That should at least keep you even for a while....

(HE at BJ at the RW using Mikes basic strat is .52 never betting LL)

Maybe they should put a sign or brochure on the table with a recommendation of a simple playing strategy.

Does Shuffle Master show players how to play UTH optimally? If not, Red Wind may be reluctant to show patrons how to play it.
Discount Gambling shows the optimal strategy as follows. Mr. Egilman got them almost all right, almost..

Arizona Stud Basic Strategy

Decision and Strategy

Discard
Hold pair, else
hold two highest cards.
Advanced exception: hold highest and lowest cards when suited, AND
highest two cards aren’t suited, AND highest card is Eight or better, AND
middle card is Six or lower, AND lowest card is only one rank below middle
card.

4x / check
4x raise any pair, else
4x raise suited Ace and Nine or better, else
4x raise Ace and Ten or better, else
check.

1x / fold
1x call three-of-a-kind, else
1x call any pair beating the dealer by more than a kicker, else
1x call same pair as dealer plus Ten or better kicker, else
1x call open-ended straight flush draw, else
1x call flush draw or any straight draw when beating the dealer, else
1x call flush draw or open-ended straight draw when dealer has no pair, else
1x call with higher hand (Jack or better kicker), else
fold all others.

Quote: UCivan

Do you think RW would give Arizona Stud 12-18 months on the floor to prove itself?

Probably not.....UTH already had other successful installs so I am sure that is why they gave it a longer runway. Keep in mind we are only getting Egilman's data points here, so the game may be doing fine at night or on weekends when a more infrequent local gambler comes in and wants a wilder ride with his bankroll. Or it may be fading, we just don't really have a full picture.

I like the game because it is a five card stud game against the dealer (vs. a pay table) and that is a new concept. It feels like there should be a game offering in that space that succeeds. I don't know if AZ Stud is that answer, but the game has some merits.

Quote: UCivan

Does Shuffle Master show players how to play UTH optimally? If not, Red Wind may be reluctant to show patrons how to play it.
Discount Gambling shows the optimal strategy as follows. Mr. Egilman got them almost all right, almost..

Thank you for the chart, never saw it before. The point I was making is having a BASIC, one line, strat that would be easy to play and easy to remember. My basic strat comes from my understanding of a game that the play is based upon and will not fit exactly every circumstance that may arise, but it is a good solid one for basic play.

That chart although maybe the mathematically correct optimal play, is a bit much to remember. And lets not forget that this is a new game, one nobody has seen before. And lets not forget that the house was offered strat cards and refused them. Another thing to remember is I don't go on the weekends when the real pressure hits the floor so I don't know if they have the table open on those days when the young more risk taking crowd comes in, all I can report is when I am there. and when I have been there, it was open only once....

It is hard to get a feel for a game you have never seen before if the table isn't open....

Thanks for your great comments, Egilman, They are very well taken. We have decided to pull the game off the floor because of the fact that players were just not playing it optimally and that the holds were higher than expected - imagining in blackjack, players are always hitting cards with 12-soft 20 against dealer's up card of 4, 5 or 6. Normally, havng a high hold for an existing game (like UTH or Lucky Ladies) is a blessing, but for a new game, this is less than desirable. The general rules of play for AZ Stud are very good and the mechanics works well, but we are going to make changes in order to make it more intuitive for cautious and conservative players to play correctly and hope to get a 2nd trial soon.

I hope you continue to share your thoughts on games in the forum. They help many members that are developing or thinking about developing new games, greatly.

That is too bad eTable, I was hoping to use true basic strategy for the game and see how it "felt" without making the side bets when I go to WA in 2 weeks. I don't normally play side bets when the main game requires a multi-unit raise of 2-4X as those types of base games have plenty of volatility for the size of my bankroll. I don't play the Trips bet in UTH unless I am winning or someone has put in that .9% pay table which you rarely see.

Game development is a process of tweaks along the way. I feel like a 5 card stud game against the dealer can work, you just need to find a better recipe.