Question #4 Pai Gow Poker

Boy do I have more questions!! This is a 3 parter.

Am I right that Banking at a table with only me and the dealer, player banking allowed, just means we keep switching back and forth with who has the advantage on "copies"? I distinctly get that feeling playing the Wizard's online game. If there are more players, this is quite different, as you are indeed covering all those bets? This of course can't be simulated with the game. The entire house advantage would seem to have to be what happens in copies, but while playing I get no sense that this is much of a factor!

The Wizard states "The most important factor in improving your odds in pai gow poker is the ratio of how much is bet when you are the banker to as a player." I'm thinking he is talking about banking the other players, but what about making a smaller bet when player as well? Will there be any objection to that pattern of betting from the House?

I've never banked, so what should I be expecting as far as bringing a bankroll at a table with more players? Am I going to show up with a thousand bucks and be woefully short of what's needed to bank? I have been assuming so, that if at a $10 table and there is a pack of players, a bankroll of $400 minimum [that might be OK for non-banking play] now needs to be at least $2000.

btw did I stump the experts with question #3?

Odious,
No, you are not 100% correct about banking. Granted, you win on copies, but that gives you maybe 0.9% at best an edge BEFORE THE COMMISSION CHARGE. On a win - and even if a copy helped - you still have to pay a commission as a player - even as a banking player. So, no, you never get an edge, just a reduction.

Trying to get an good edge against a casino house is an impossible gambit. However, reducing the edge is a reasonable search, but is no panacea. Banking in Pai Gow helps, but boy is it an annoyance to the house and to other players.

My game - commission-free EZ Pai Gow poker - has eliminated banking at the Ameristar casinos, from what I hear from my distributor, DEQ systems. It just bogs down the game with "advantage play fleas" trying to game the table at a nickle house. The arguiment is "you wanna bank - go to the poker room!" And try banking on ROULETTE or BLACKJACK just to waste everyone's time!

I don't mean to sound crass or irritated, but banking is a complete drag and a waste of time on a good pit game, and is just there as an archaic vestige from its days as a poker room game two decades ago. It is a consideration that SHOULD NO LONGER BE OFFERED IN THE PIT. It will soon enough be eliminated in the coming years as a B.S. aspect of the game that "simply has to go," if Ameristar is any indication. And God Bless them.

Where you make money in banking is where other players bet $500 a hand each against you, and you get dealt a flush with a pair of Kings for the two-card side - taking the big money from other players in a poker-room type of action.

Indeed, in some California poker rooms, Pai Gow is exclusively player banked - for players who have the cojones to ante up. Some professional players make $100,000 a year plus as banking players. But they don't waste the time of $10 casino houses on it.

But for $10 casino pit play - please don't look at the old gimmick of player banking as an advantage play panacea.

Lord knows when some player banks at a $5 Pai Gow table I'm playing on at a nickel house, I'll put $300 out on two hands as my bet to be covered, and demand that he puts his little nuggets on the table to fade it, or shut up. Most players pull back their bets. And usually he can't cover it so backs down.

Odious, player banking is an abuse in the table game pit, and it needs to go. Do not look there.

Leave that for the Bicycle club in L.A.

Quote: Paigowdan

Odious, No, you are not 100% correct about banking. Granted, you win on copies, but that gives you maybe 0.9% at best an edge BEFORE THE COMMISSION CHARGE. On a win - and even if a copy helped - you still have to pay a commission as a player - even as a banking player. So, no, you never get an edge, just a reduction.

I was wondering what would happen banking against multiple players, but clearly you are saying the commission always gets the edge. Are you really saying the best you can do reducing house edge is 5% minus 0.9% = 4.1% ? [sorry, this might just show how math challenged I am. ]

Quote: Paigowdan

I don't mean to sound crass or irritated, but banking is a complete drag and a waste of time on a good pit game, and is just there as an archaic vestige from its days as a poker room game two decades ago. It is a consideration that SHOULD NO LONGER BE OFFERED IN THE PIT. It will soon enough be eliminated in the coming years as a B.S. aspect of the game that "simply has to go," if Ameristar is any indication. And God Bless them.

It sounds like I would expect to find other players quite irritated that I would be banking? Ouch!

I find it easy to believe that the game will evolve to versions with no player banking.

I am pretty sure you and the WoO do not see eye to eye on the matter of whether to bank or not?

Quote: Paigowdan

Where you make money in banking is where other players bet $500 a hand each against you, and you get dealt a flush with a pair of Kings for the two-card side - taking the big money from other players in a poker-room type of action.

are you just saying they hope for players to make errors in play? the side getting dealt the flush and the Kings can be switched around the other way here.

Quote: odiousgambit

It sounds like I would expect to find other players quite irritated that I would be banking? Ouch!

I find it easy to believe that the game will evolve to versions with no player banking.

I am pretty sure you and the WoO do not see eye to eye on the matter of whether to bank or not?

I'll chime in with my .02 here - from a mainly east coast perspective (Where Dan's game is not offered)

Banking is not seen as an annoyance to other players when I've played - typically people only bank when they feel they need to change their "luck" The person who wishes to bank will ask the table, and more times than not (if the table is mostly Asian) - everyone will pull their bets and let you play the dealer one on one.

As for the other question regarding bankroll - it's completely dependent on what your table mates are betting. You may see $200-$250 bets routinely on a $20 table on the east coast, so I typically only bank when it's myself or one other (which is rare). If the amount of $ on the table is more than your current chip stack, the dealer will ask you to either put up the money in cash next to your chips, or offer you the option to no longer bank.

As for the question regarding the ratio of bet - most tables now will not let you vary your bet as banker (it has to be what you previously bet the last round). So this advantage has fallen by the wayside.

I agree with Dan in the respect that the House likes his game because the odds are virtually the same and they don't have to deal with commission, but I believe that at least offering banking should be made, for those like me who play at off times and like to alternate bank when they are the only person at the table.

-B

Odious,

Firstly, yes, banking in a pit game is generally NOT appreciated, and is generally considered a show-off flea move of "braggadicio" that only slows the game down and annoys everyone. The proper response is to risk $500 in the hopes of sending his sorry @ss home broke.

Number two, I have IMMENSE respect for Professor Michael Shackleford, but WoO and I may or may not see eye to eye on everything in this very nutty and cut-throat business.

And I don't think he wants us - or anyone - patronizing him as a "yes man" if we happened to disagree, I just state it as I see it, and bounce it off here. From there, the wisdom of the high Lords will flow out [HOPEFULLY], if it is present. If wisdom from us is present, then silence from them as we bicker on this board is the acknowkedgement.

As a game designer, I also speak the same way [as equals] to Charles R. Mousseau, Stanley Ko, and to Cindu Liu, and to Roy Ritner [I haven't yet dealt with Elliot Jacobson] - which is always very friendly and business oriented, and as equals working in this business. They don't ask for my autograpgh, and I do not ask for theirs.

Now, as for Mike S., - and as much as I love the fine man, - I will brazenly state that I thinks he likes his optimal house edge play at ALL times, [similar to Jean Scott, "The frugal gambler" et al] and that he will use banking as an available tool at times to his personal advantage, - which is what you you are SUPPOSED to do, if you are a mathemematically inclined advantage player. Totally normal, no comment here, okay. Annoying as hell to $10 table casinos - And Mike, I love you dearly. Now...

#2: OH GOD YES, do OTHER PLAYERS MAKE ERRORS IN PAI GOW PLAY!! SH}t Yes they do! By ALL MEANS BANK if you have mastered by memory a CLASS-A Pai Gow Banking strategy! (see Pai Gow post #3 here in this forum!!)
Oh, man, is this the GOOD side of banking or what!

If you are NOT afraid to bet some serious money, AND LEARN A MASTER'S PAI GOW STRATEGY, by ALL means bank!!

Just do it in an L.A. CARD ROOM, and NOT in a standard casino AT A $5 or $10 DOLLAR TABLE with recreational players!

Do it with banking players bnetting some money in a card room, please!

So Review the stratgey listed in Pai Gow Question #3, and GO to a Los Angeles based CARD ROOM to BANK against professional players, instead of disrupting table games pit operations of normal casinos with petty banking, which is offered as an increasing RARER casino consideration! THIS IS DIFFERENT!

Should I put links to Mapquest map linbs to the Bicycle club in Los Angeles here? Now THAT is the place to go for that....

I never bank because I don't like the additional one hand risk.

Quote: odiousgambit

Am I right that Banking at a table with only me and the dealer, player banking allowed, just means we keep switching back and forth with who has the advantage on "copies"?

That depends on the casino.

Some casinos switch back and forth between ALL seats, occupied or not, giving you the chance to bank only once in 12 hands.

Some casinos allow ANYONE to bank after the dealer banks. So if no other player wants to bank, you could bank ever other hand.

Toast -
Thank you so much!
You bank in order to believe that you change the cards - now that's different, and it is a fine consideration to all at the table! And that's different!

Yet it is all a superstition - as the first hand out is always changes by the dice/random number generator, and the shuffle master machine, also.

But, Toast - thank you again!

And DEQ is in AC this June - as the commission-free EZ Pai Gow game is the sister product to EZ Baccarat!
Dan.

Quote: Paigowdan

Toast -
Thank you so much!
You bank in order to believe that you change the cards - now that's different, and it is a fine consideration to all at the table! And that's different!

Yet it is all a superstition - as the first hand out is always changes by the dice/random number generator, and the shuffle master machine, also.

But, Toast - thank you again!

And DEQ is in AC this June - as the commission-free EZ Pai Gow game is the sister product to EZ Baccarat!
Dan.

Hey-I never said I bank to change my "luck" - I was only stating what I've observed. I know that all these hands are indpendent random statistical events. :) I will look for your game up in AC (if I get up there much, once DE, WV, and PA crank out their tables).

-B

I disagree with Paigowdan on just about everything he said.

I don't understand what his problem with banking is. It slows down the game a little, but a lot of Pai Gow Poker's charm is that it's a slower moving game.

And his comment about the house edge is ridiculous. Obviously if you're the player and betting $10 a hand, and when you bank, you're covering $50 or more, you're going to have an edge. Yes, you do pay commission, but only on the net wins. So if you win $40 and lose $10, you're paying the $1.50 commission.

The advantage you have on winning copies + if you're playing at a $10 table, you're going to get some bad players, means that you might not have a huge edge, but at least you've turned the game into being pretty even.

And, if you're like me, and you like playing $10 - $15 a hand, if you're at a full table, banking is going to be too much to handle. But if you're at a table with 2 or 3 other people, and they're not betting too much, there's no reason not to bank. Some people will get upset, but when people do it when I'm at the table, I couldn't care less.

Paigowdan is speaking as a person who makes money off fast Pai Gow games. And from his perspective, banking is silly. But the fact is that banking definitely does not harm the player, so why would we want to get rid of it.

Note, you can't bank in the midwest, and you can bank in Vegas, and I have just as much fun doing both. But in Vegas, if I'm at a table with only one or two other people, it's nice to know that I'm playing a even handed game.

My two cents....

Oh, about your bankroll. It's really hard to tell how much you're going to need. Every table is different. You could get to a $10 table, and people will be playing $100 a hand. So, I would go to the table with your normal bankroll, and judge from there.

I will defer to Dan as being more of an expert that I. But I'll offer my opinions anyway.

Yes, the most tangible benefit of banking is that you win ties. But this is not an insignificant factor. Ties in the front hand happen often enough that this is a considerable benefit. I expect the Wizard's site specifies how often ties occur in the front hand. I'd estimate it to be about 2.5%. About 50% of the time, a front hand will consist of some combination of A, K, Q, J and 10, with no pair. So you and the dealer will both be sporting this front hand about 1/4 of the time. Since there are only 10 such combinations, this means that about 1 in 40 hands will result in a tie.

The house gets its advantage from two sources: banker winning ties and commission. If the house has both of these going for it, the house edge is around 2.7%. If you are banking, the advantage you get from banking will nearly offset the commission, resulting in a total house edge of a small fraction of a percent.

So, banking does provide a tangible benefit. If you are allowed to bank every other hand, you can reduce the overall house edge from about 2.7% down to about 1.4%.

However, it does cause quite a disruption of the game. Many PGP players are rather novice, because the game is fairly easy to learn, slow to play, and sociable. Many of these players will freak out when faced with a player banker. Even if they understand the mechanics of play in this situation (rare), they want to compete against the house and not another player. They will innately feel that you're trying to put something over on them. I rarely bank in PGP because I enjoy the social aspect and don't want to scare off the other players for the sake of the edge.

If you are playing one-on-one with a dealer, there's no reason not to bank every other hand. For most dealers, this shouldn't even slow the game down.

If you're playing with maybe one other experienced player only, banking is no big deal as well. You can develop some competition between you as you trade off banking. Friendly competition, I hope.

Another impact of player banking is that it changes the order that the hands are dealt. The little LED counter in the table tells where the dealer is to begin dealing cards, starting from the BANKER position. So if the dealer is banker and the number says "1", the dealer deals the first hand to him/herself. If you are the banker, this hand is dealt to you, then all subsequent hands proceed around the table. So everybody at the table gets a different hand than they would've gotten had you not chosen to bank.

Of course this has no impact on the statistics of the game. But it certainly can change the specific outcome of a hand. If you choose to bank, another player at the table may get a particularly cruddy hand. If they are so inclined, they might look around the table and see that they could've gotten a really good hand if you hadn't banked. Then they might want to kick the crap out of you in the parking lot.

I use this superstition to my advantage (just a little bit). I'll typically ask to bank only after the dealer has gotten 3 or 4 really good hands in a row, and the table is on a losing streak. I'll let everybody know that I'm banking to "change the luck". The other players will generally approve of this maneuver. Of course it doesn't really matter. But I always say: if you're going to be superstitious, do it in a manner that doesn't cost you anything. In this case, I actually gain a bit.

You are not allowed to increase your bet when banking. I think generally the house will allow you to bet up to 110% of the amount which you bet on your last player bet. I think the specifics vary from casino to casino. Generally speaking, if you are playing $20/hand, you can only ask to bank for $20 or less. Of course, this is just between you and the dealer, and you are also risking the amount of the other players' bets when you are banking.

The bankroll you'll need is a strong function of what the other players are betting. If everyone is playing the $10 table minimum, you don't need to worry about having much extra money on hand. I'd say maybe your $400 bankroll should be more like $600 or so. Of course, if somebody at the table is playing $500/hand...

Fins
Firstly, I don't make money off any "fast Pai Gow games." If I were, I WOULD be banking, and at the Bicycle club in Los Angeles.

Secondly, I do NOT think banking is silly at all! But I think it belongs in a $500 a hand card room, and that it is COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE in a $5 casino where recreational players are visiting from Cheyenne Wyoming on a vacation, and wish to play $5 a hand against the house as usual - when some hot shot wishes to bank, to show some sort of false expertise to impress no one at $5 a hand.

I am a casino game designer and a Pai Gow casino dealer at the Fiesta Henderon, and I see players choosing to bank for $5 against players, slowing things down, and just to show off false expertise by doing so, annoying players and dealers. I - and my casino manager - view it as JUST a bullsh]t disruption on the game - which it is, and where fleas bank to either "think that they are changing the luck" of the game, or to display their braggadicio and non-existent accumen as "Pai Gow masters" by banking. To this EVERYONE just rolls there eyes, and either drops out, or bets $100 a hand just to punish the idiot. I hate to see this. Half of the banking action is to falsely change the luck of the hands - which that action has mathematically NO effect (and ASK the Wizard at THIS site and report BACK to us), or to just show off as a hot shot. This is just freaking silly. In some cases the banker is looking for a 0.9% edge reduction, which would amount to pennies on a $5 bet. I don;t call this advantage play, no one in hios right mind would either. The banker cannot jump up in bet amount over his previous bet. He might as well just reach his arms out and pull on our penises, for all this banking actions on a nickel table is worth!! So no, it's not appreciated.

I ask you Fins, when a table Players pull back to "No Bet" action when some banking show-off banks at a $5 against the house, then how much is a 0.9% increase in player edge against NO ACTION FROM OTHER PLAYERS gonna get him??!!

Everyone hates false banking and sees it as phony, because if you REALLY want to bank for professional advantage, you'd be at the Bicycle club in Los Angeles betting $500 a hand or better, and NOT wasting players' or dealers' time AT A NICKLE HOUSE on LAKE MEAD PARKWAY where recreational players are just trying to have a little fun after a long day.

That's the real story, FinsRule.

As for the math: the edge on copies is about 0.8% or 0.9% but it's lost on a 1.6% commission (32% win frequency * 5% = 1.6%) so there is still a 0.7 house edge. For a 1% edge you get a dollar on a $100 back-action bet, which we don;'t see. The player NEVER gets an edge.

Fins, you say that "if you can't bank in the midwest, but you can bank in Vegas!" - then those days are coming to an end for out-of-state flea-ass $5 bankers [as well as for such local players alike] - who just annoy the rest of the table. Players now respond by pulling back their bets, or a brave soul betting a $200 hand to send off a bragging banker home broke, and management is seeing the point that that banking is just useless.

In downtown Las Vegas, I see "no banking" Pai Gow tables with neither banking or dealer buttons, signaling this needed change.

And I see this as a casino dealer, and I think it is about time. As a matter of fact, I sometimes quietly advise the players to pull back their bets, or to go black to punish the so-called banking expert.

As of now, 99% of the time there is no banking on Pai Gow, and this is a gooooood thing! Tonight I dealt eight hours on a Pai Gow table without a single instance of a banking request. I move the banking button around for nothing, feeling good about that.

Like I said, if you wanna bank on Pai Gow, go to Los Angeles, and bank Pai Gow there, and it ain't gonna be for $10 a hand.

Good Riddance to this.
Dan.

Dan,

As a game designer, my thought was that you get a cut of the house win. House makes more money if the game goes faster. In general, game designers/casinos want faster games.

I bank when it's me vs. the dealer, or if there's a couple of other players at the table betting the minimum. It's not to "change the luck" or because I'm trying to make money, I do it because I'm being offered an advantage (not sure the exact math, but it at least reduces the edge). If I'm being offered it, what's wrong with taking it?

So I guess that's my point. Why would players want to get rid of it? Pai Gow is a slow game, and I don't think there's a big call to speed it up. (Although the no commission thing is nice)

I just don't get why people care who the banker is. I don't change my bets when someone decides to bank, and I don't know why anyone else does either. I think the "bragging banker" thing goes both ways. The "bragging player" who doesn't want to be pushed around. If everyone just relaxed and bet what they wanted to bet every hand, then there wouldn't be any problems.

I guess I'm a "flea-ass", but I've been called worse.

Fins,
In terms of speed, banking just clogs the speed of the game, and its too-slow pace is actually a problem at casinos.

For banking, if any other player is active, then there are TWO hand setting periods, taking twice the time for just one hand. Most times, a dealer has to review the banking proceedure and verify questions with the floormen, and it's just an albatross.

Pai Gow is a slow game, and the problem it's sometimes too slow in this day and age. Commission-free play speeds it up, but banking and the dragon hands are problems that drag iot downwards, and need to be terminated.

Personally, I don't care who the banker is, - and if they LEGITEMATELY want to bank, to try that option, then it's okay with me.

But, as a dealer if I see a player complain against a banker, "if I want to play against a banker then I can go to the poker room," I generally say, "That player has a right to bank, whether you like it or not - and the poker room is to the left of the escalator near the gift shop. Have a nice day, - and can I color you up??!!"

I also say, "what the hell do you care if some player banks, as your bet amount is still the same, and it plays the same at the same odds. Since when is winning Casino money better or worse than a player's dollar? You lose your player dollars to us, and we don't complain about you!" [At times I got a write up here and there...but not anymore.]

I gotta say, while I have been awarded "casino service excellence" awards in dealing with our good players, I quietly poked the fleas in there eyes, with floor supervision quietly smiling at it. We don't need their money - if their money costs more than it's worth!

Quote: Paigowdan

Fins,
In terms of speed, banking just clogs the speed of the game, and its too-slow pace is actually a problem at casinos.

For banking, if any other player is active, then there are TWO hand setting periods, taking twice the time for just one hand. Most times, a dealer has to review the banking proceedure and verify questions with the floormen, and it's just an albatross.

Pai Gow is a slow game, and the problem it's sometimes too slow in this day and age. Commission-free play speeds it up, but banking and the dragon hands are problems that drag iot downwards, and need to be terminated.

Personally, I don't care who the banker is, - and if they LEGITEMATELY want to bank, to try that option, then it's okay with me.

I gotta say, while I have been awarded "casino service excellence" awards in dealing with our good players, I quietly poked the fleas in there eyes, with floor supervision quietly smiling at it. We don't need their money - if their money costs more than it's worth!

Dan -

Just curious, from a casino standpoint - how many more hands per hour does your game add compared to the "normal" PGP games out there right now? I think part of the issue like you say is in Vegas and elsewhere, $5 or $10 Pai Gow is prevalent, so I can understand your points regarding banking and the fact that those types of bets cost the casino. Here in AC, I usually never play for less than $25, and I've never seen it less than $20 minimum.

This discussion just goes to show you that there are always a myriad of opinions regarding any casino issue.

-B

Dan,

All I have to say is that if I say I want to bank, and you plop down two bets of $300 in an effort to discourage me, I'm going to A) remind the dealer that your bets are now locked in (that's how it's dealt in Canada, anyways...) and B) reach for my wallet :)

The way players crap all over player-banking just blows my mind. They'll give a 2%+ edge to the house but won't give a 0.3% to me, because they "hate the house but don't want to take my money"? Uh huh.

Which is the only reason I want to bank: I like betting big when I have an edge, and winning copies plus paying commission only on a net win are two big edges. And when I walk by a table and see a player chunking green with a hand like AAJJKQ3 and splits it KQ/AAJJ3, or splits his two pair with 3322AK4, you better believe if I don't have enough money handy to bank against the one time he'll be forced to bet it against me, I'll stop by the ATM first.

PS with regard to your above post, the banking player does indeed have an advantage during the times they bank. 0.2% minimum against optimal player strategy. And with the mis-sets described above, it's in the 1-2 point range, easy. Hell, sometimes just by which two cards they pull up you can tell if they're splitting two low-to-medium pair, which is certainly a huge advantage in its own right.

I used to play PGP quite a bit, and banked whenever I could. Of course, that was in SFO and LA where there were 40 or 50 people playing on one table and people were betting things like their livers or their children.

I do agree that as Nevada-casino-style PGP is essentially a kill-time, sociable game, that taking the bank is disruptive and contrary to the leisurely nature of the game. I simply remove my bet when someone else banks, because I have no interest in beating another player, or having him beat me, except at the poker table. And as an AP move, it's dubious--the edge is tiny, and the variance huge.

The last time I ever banked a full table in Vegas was at the Sands (pre-implosion). I was against five players and the dealer. My hand was 33355xx, which I of course played as 55 in front. I LOST TO FOUR OF THE PLAYERS, tied the fifth, and lost to the dealer too!!!! I refuse to even attempt to calculate the odds of this happening, except I think that it's more likely to simultaneously hit a royal flush on a video poker machine and be offered a blowjob from Angelina Jolie.

I don't understand why it matters if its for $5 hand or $500. those $5 mean the same to the player as the $500 means to the whale type player.