Odds and ends of 3 Card Poker

I noticed a few things while playing 3 card poker this trip.

First is that most poeple bet the pair+ and any other sucker bets on the table. That would be the 6 card bonus at Harrah's properties, and the progressive bet I saw at Excalibur. This made me head Downtown, mostly, because at Fitzgeralds and Fremont they only have pair+.

Next, a lot of people lack any understanding of when to play and when to fold. One guy raised on just about any Jack-high hand. Of course he went through his bankroll in minutes. But I also saw many players often raised well below the Q/6/4 threshold.

Another interesting bit were people who bet $5 on ante and play, but $10 or more on pair+. I saw a lot of that going on Downtown. Naturally they also burned their bankrolls quickly. ONe older gentleman would go quickly through $100, then lave the table a while and eventually returned for another $100 round. He did this four times while I played one afternoon.

At my one session at Excalibur one guy, about early 40s, bought in for $300. He played $15 to $20 on the ante and play, plus $10 on the pair+ and $1 on the progressive. He made bets for the dealer once in a while (I preffer to give the dealer a straight up tip), always as a pair+ bet. He remarked at one point that he only raised with a Q/10 or better. He left the table with $400 after playing a bit over an hour.

More later

Quote: Nareed

He remarked at one point that he only raised with a Q/10 or better. He left the table with $400 after playing a bit over an hour.

He did good. Did you tell him about these sites and/or that the Wiz recommends Q/6/4?

Since that is so close to his Q/10, he might be intrigued and join the conversations here.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

He did good. Did you tell him about these sites and/or that the Wiz recommends Q/6/4?

Since that is so close to his Q/10, he might be intrigued and join the conversations here.

As a rule I don't offer advice to other players. In this case he was tutoring a newbie who took up all his attention anyway. The newbie showed him his hand every time, too, while the dealer merely watched and said nothing.

I did mention at a Pai Gow Poker table that I set my hands the Wizard's way, but that only elicited blank stares.

Yeah, mentioning "Wizard's way" probably won't be the conversation starter you're expecting it to be.


And, I don't necessarily offer unsolicited advice either.

But since you said he mentioned his qualifier, I thought he was talking to you.

And if I DID say something, it would be along the lines of "Q/10? That's close. I'm associated with a guy who is a Professional Casino Math Consultant. He came up with Q/6/4...."

Being as active as you are here, I think qualifies you for using the loose term "associated". (Did you have coffee with him yet?) Combine it with the fancy title I just gave the Wiz, and it sounds a lot better than, "I saw on some guy's website...."

The difference between Q/6/4 and queen-high is negligible. I think somebody (might have been the Wiz) quantified it as less than .10% H.A.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

But since you said he mentioned his qualifier, I thought he was talking to you.

He was tutoring the newbie when he said that.

At the 3 card table I try to make as little conversationa s possible, because it usually comes down to "Why aren't you making the bonus bet?" And I have a hard time refraining from the term "sucker bet" :)

Quote: DJTeddyBear

And if I DID say something, it would be along the lines of "Q/10? That's close. I'm associated with a guy who is a Professional Casino Math Consultant. He came up with Q/6/4...."

Hey, that's good! I didn't think of it, or anything even close.

"Associated" is a bit of a stretch, though, and yes I've had Coffee with the Wizard recently. "Acquainted" would be more truthful. But Professional Casino Consultant is really good, lots of authority in that title.

In my experience, its just best to keep your mouth shut when gambling and not give anybody advice, ever (especially the unsolicited type)! The vast majority of players don't want our advice, since they've already convinced themselves their play is best. They will not believe you, no matter who you quote. Furthermore, the few players who want advice, will ask the dealer, not us.

I used to give basic strategy tips to other players, because, in my mind, I thought I was doing the right thing (as it would save them money in the long run). But I've been berated enough that now, I know better. Here are some examples of rebuttals I've received when offering basic strategy advice:
-"You go by the book? Who do you think wrote the book? The casinos did!"
-"I don't care what your math says, I've been playing this game for years, I've got experience and I know how this game is played."
-"I never surrender in blackjack, I already surrendered when I walked through the casino doors."
-Coming from the dealer after I told a player to hit his soft 18: "Don't listen to him , he hit a hard 17 earlier and took my bust card." (FYI it was Spanish 21, which calls for a hit against the dealers A)
-"Your not a team player, go find another table."

It's just not worth it guys...

Yeah, I tend to not offer unsolicited advice either.

Nobody wants to listen, particularly when they are gambling, when they have their game face on, when they are 'in the zone', or whatever.

But when somebody seems to want or need help?

What I offer is the easy to remember name 'WizardOfOdds.com' so they can check it out when they are in a different mindset. I tell them that there's a lot of good, plain english stuff that exaplins why certain situations call for specific actions.

Quote: cardshark

In my experience, its just best to keep your mouth shut when gambling and not give anybody advice, ever (especially the unsolicited type)! The vast majority of players don't want our advice, since they've already convinced themselves their play is best. They will not believe you, no matter who you quote. Furthermore, the few players who want advice, will ask the dealer, not us.

I would add that when you give advice you'll be held responsible for the consequences of taking it. In gambling the best play is usually the one that loses least. Veteran players may undesrand this, but novices and many casual players won't. Therefore you'll be blamed for every loss.

In games with side bets most players won't listen to you anyway if you don't place the sucker bets. They figure if you're willing to miss the big payoff, then you have no idea what you're doing.

Quote: Nareed

One guy raised on just about any Jack-high hand. Of course he went through his bankroll in minutes.

This comment kind of bothers me. Raising on a Jack-high might not be the best strategy long term, but I doubt it is so bad a strategy that it would overcome the variance of the game in a minutes. Even raising on everything (playing blind) would take 25 hands before it would make a one betting unit difference, on average. And that wouldn't compare with the standard deviation of about 6 betting units that you would expect from 25 hands of three-card poker.

I would appreciate it if someone else could come in with a move extensive analysis.

Quote: ChampagneFireball

This comment kind of bothers me. Raising on a Jack-high might not be the best strategy long term, but I doubt it is so bad a strategy that it would overcome the variance of the game in a minutes.

You have to allow for some poetic exaggeration. But aside from that also consider he played the pair+, which also loses a lot, and that I saw him go through a $100 buy in in less than 40 minutes.

Another thing I noted was a repeated failure to pay the ante bonus. I noticed every time the dealer failed to pay me, because I then requested that he or she do so. Often they didn't seem to understand what I was even talking about. Fortunately the ante bonus table is printed on the felt, so I just had to tap on it.

Add this to the flack I often got for not playing the pair+, the progressive or the six card bonus, and I'm starting to think I should play the automated 3 card poker some casinos have. Pay tables are the same.

I guess I'll join this discussion...

On giving advice: I find that if I sit at a table for a half an hour with some idiots at blackjack... about one in four of them will realize that I know what I'm doing and ask for advice. I'm pretty timid to be honest and hate it when people try and give me unsolicited "advice" such as the pair+, so if people want to piss away their money it's their loss. If it weren't for people like them, they couldn't offer me a $10 .2% advantage game :).

On 3-card poker: I have only played it a few times, when I started gambling I had a tough time putting $5 on the table so having to put down $10 after raising kind of bit me so I stuck to BJ. Then I discovered craps and followed my calling there, so I missed what some call the "newbie" game of 3-card. I know that they give out hands face down... I'm wondering what would happen if everyone at the table worked together and had their cards face-up. I would think if given PERFECT strategy you could come up with composition-dependent changes from Q64 - has anyone thought about this? Skimming through the Wiz's page on it I don't see it. It could also be that this is highly frowned upon by the casino and if they see you do this they could shut it down.

Quote: ahiromu

I'm wondering what would happen if everyone at the table worked together and had their cards face-up. I would think if given PERFECT strategy you could come up with composition-dependent changes from Q64 - has anyone thought about this? Skimming through the Wiz's page on it I don't see it. It could also be that this is highly frowned upon by the casino and if they see you do this they could shut it down.

Well, the average casino table holds 6 to 7 people plus the dealer. That's a max of eight 3-card hands, which means you'd see 21 cards max, with the dealer's cards to be disclosed, and 28 cards unseen. I'm no expert so I'll ask: can you determine anythign from that information?

I tend to think no. Knowing one of the delaer's cards, as the Wizard advices to look for flashing dealers, seems to be more useful. BTW at the Fremont when the delaer picks up his cards, he places a card-sized piece of red cardboard at the bottom of his pile, thereby preventing any flashing.

Oh, one guy who played next to me would toss his cards face up on the table when folding, often ebfore most players decided on their play bets. The dealer didn't mind that, neither did the pit boss when he saw it at least once. The newbie I mentioned up-thread would often show his cards to the guy tutoring him and ask for advice; the dealer didn't say anything about that either.

Quote: ahiromu

I guess I'll join this discussion...

On giving advice: I find that if I sit at a table for a half an hour with some idiots at blackjack... about one in four of them will realize that I know what I'm doing and ask for advice. I'm pretty timid to be honest and hate it when people try and give me unsolicited "advice" such as the pair+, so if people want to piss away their money it's their loss. If it weren't for people like them, they couldn't offer me a $10 .2% advantage game :).

On 3-card poker: I have only played it a few times, when I started gambling I had a tough time putting $5 on the table so having to put down $10 after raising kind of bit me so I stuck to BJ. Then I discovered craps and followed my calling there, so I missed what some call the "newbie" game of 3-card. I know that they give out hands face down... I'm wondering what would happen if everyone at the table worked together and had their cards face-up. I would think if given PERFECT strategy you could come up with composition-dependent changes from Q64 - has anyone thought about this? Skimming through the Wiz's page on it I don't see it. It could also be that this is highly frowned upon by the casino and if they see you do this they could shut it down.

You would not be able to overcome the house edge.

You're better off trying to holecard

I've been getting some flack from players (and a couple of dealers) about not playing the Pairs Plus in 3 Card and the Trips in Ultimate, usually after I hit something that would have paid and I don't have the bet down. I always just point out how many other times I would have lost money, and they usually leave me alone after that.

I was surprised so many people are anti-Pair Plus. I used to play the game a lot when the 40/30/6/4/1 table was the norm, and the House edge in that was just about the same as the ante. I hadn't realized it was so difficult to find that pay table these days. That's a shame, because the variance of that bet was probably the only thing that made the game enjoyable to me.

cclub79: You might find new excitement in Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em. The Trips paytable is a very reasonable 2.0% house edge with nice variance, about the same as the ante bet. Look for the paytable that pays 8/6/5 for a full house/flush/straight. I think Hollywood Lawrenceburg and Belterra have it. The main game is very easy to learn.