Criss Cross Poker?

Quote: mrsuit31

Every single table games person will tell you that that statement is ridiculous. Hit rate/HA are incredibly important for the longevity of a game. Again, Im not saying the game isn't fun, for at least a little while. The longer you play, the more likely you are to eventually feel those effects.

I don't mean this to sound as if I am taking shots at you because I do value your opinion as a player. But I think that statement about HA is absurd.



It has a 25% hit rate, you aren't winning partials that often ;) lol





In the end can one person get lucky and hit a huge hand? of course he can. Can someone sit down at virtually any game on the market and get lucky and win big? of course they can. That isnt the point I am attempting to make.

But again this is all coming from me and the game is getting installs, only time will tell the fate of the game.

Point taken. But remember, you are dealing with people who will play Let It Ride for hours.

Quote: Mosca

Point taken. But remember, you are dealing with people who will play Let It Ride for hours.

let it ride has a lower house edge and players get to play the hand out while removing wagers and not adding them, this makes it a much lower average total units per hand(or at least allows for it), something you acknowledged is IMHO a big issue. In Let It Ride, you can see the hand out for a grand total of a massive 1 unit. Plus, how many let it ride tables was there and how many are left? ;)

That is a good example of the point Im trying to make. Let it ride is a game teetering on extinction in many places. A game that I will still play sometimes.

Quote: mrsuit31

let it ride has a lower house edge and players get to play the hand out while removing wagers and not adding them, this makes it a much lower average total units per hand(or at least allows for it), something you acknowledged is IMHO a big issue. In Let It Ride, you can see the hand out for a grand total of a massive 1 unit. Plus, how many let it ride tables was there and how many are left? ;)

That is a good example of the point Im trying to make. Let it ride is a game teetering on extinction in many places. A game that I will still play sometimes.

I was referring to the hit rate. Some players don't care about the hit rate.

And all the LIR tables are now 2 units minimum. Everyone plays the 3 card bet. No one has to, but everyone does.


I think we both agree, though: time will tell. The installations might climb and then plummet. I agree completely with you that the number of units on the table is problematic, and if anything kills the game it will be that, not the low hit rate.

Quote: Mosca

I was referring to the hit rate. Some players don't care about the hit rate.

Some players don't care about the hit rate because they care more about "fun". But, they are the minority. Most players CARE A LOT when they cannot win (hit). Having a high hold for a new game is a poison, because your REGULAR players don't play. Casino operators do not bear the same patience for new games as they do for the popular games. For UTH, if the hold is high, operators like it; for new game X, when the hold is high, the game designer better figure out a way to change the game rules quickly.

Quote: mrsuit31

Every single table games person will tell you that that statement is ridiculous. Hit rate/HA are incredibly important for the longevity of a game. Again, Im not saying the game isn't fun, for at least a little while. The longer you play, the more likely you are to eventually feel those effects

We just have to decide on who is considered a "table games person." Keno has survived for decades. Those who "know" don't play it. But yet there it is on the floor and in the cafes.

If so many people cared about House Advantage, then I think over my hundreds of hours playing MANY of these games - I would see more people playing proper strategy. It's not that hard to find. If I'm at a table you can just ask me. Most dealers are even going to guide you pretty close. But yet there they are, playing 2-5 in MS chasing the straight. UTH is an even more glaring example. I think I can count on two hands the number of times I have sat at a table where someone else was playing proper strategy while I was also playing. I can't even think of the number of people who look at me funny betting 4 X with my K-7.

So while you and I can see the House edge and make our own educated decision, I look at games like UTH and MS and think Do these games even remain on the floor if everyone plays even close to perfect? Lord knows that the mistakes on UTH alone must balloon the disadvantage to the average player. Yet, this game is often full for $10 minimum at multiple tables.

Quote: mrsuit31

In the end can one person get lucky and hit a huge hand? of course he can. Can someone sit down at virtually any game on the market and get lucky and win big? of course they can. That isnt the point I am attempting to make.

This wasn't in response to me, but I do find it worth commenting on. Virtually every game? I wouldn't necessary say that. The most popular game, Blackjack, is the perfect example. If you want to win $1000 on a single hand of blackjack, you know how much it's going to take to get it. If you tell some that a $5 table of MS can win you in one hand what would cost you $1000 or more on a blackjack table, some people would take that shot. It might not be the SMART shot, but it's the shot they take.

I don't play the lottery for example. So I have zero chance of winning it. There are obviously a lot of losers out there. But that one person who wins $50 million will tell you then don't regret a single ounce of their risk. (After they lose it all in two years, on the other hand . . .)

Good discussion, regardless. I am actually surprised these forums aren't more active with discussions about these games. So many of them are played, one would think that people would take the time to learn a little something about what they are getting with their money and at least doing to bare minimum to get themselves the best chance to stick around for the big one.

Quote: deanandmaria

We just have to decide on who is considered a "table games person."

Table Games Person= Casino table game developers, gaming distribution management, product managers, casino floor staff, gaming management, gaming mathematicians, there isn't much consideration that needs to be had on that subject.

Your comparing Casino table games to lotteries and keno. I don't really understand how you think that has any relevance. Same for your BJ comparison. BJ and Carni games have no comparative value, unless we are talking side wagers. Which again when in development are typically based around hit rate and HA.

UTH has 1/2 the HA of Miss stud, and a significantly higher hit rate. UTH is awesome, big fan, but the HA/hit rate reasons are very important to answer your question of why it stays on the floor and RETAINS fans while Miss stud is beginning to come out of casinos.

I actually wonder how many of those table are going to be replaced with criss cross...

People who play blackjack do so because they want to play blackjack DUH ! 6/5 proved that. Carnival games draw very little from that customer base.

People play keno and the big esix wheel and slots and the lottery. What the hell does that have to do with casino table games, may I ask ?







.

Quote: aladyat42

People who play blackjack do so because they want to play blackjack DUH ! 6/5 proved that. Carnival games draw very little from that customer base.

People play keno and the big esix wheel and slots and the lottery. What the hell does that have to do with casino table games, may I ask ?







.(EMPHASIS ADDED)

What she said! With emphasis on the period at the bottom. lol

Quote: Mosca

I sat at a table for a couple hours or so this afternoon. It's actually a lot of fun. I didn't know the proper strategy, and I couldn't get a decent data connection in the casino to look it up, so I guessed that the best play would be on the initial wager to fold 10-small and lower, 1x 6-7 and higher, and 3x any guaranteed push and higher. I can see I was off a bit.

The minimum bet at Borgata is $5. I was betting $10. I bought in for $100, and eventually used $300.

The downside: it is maddening to have $60 on the table with for example a hand of 9-6 offsuit, and a board of J-7 Down and 2-3 Cross. But a 9 or 6 middle gets a push on both, and a J or 7 pushes the Down hand and wins the Board.

The upside: if you get dealt a good hand you get paid big time. One guy at the table turned Q-Q into a full house with trips on the board, 7-7-7 across. And of course he had $30 on all spots. Twice I was down to my last bets and reached into my pocket to raise a guaranteed push, and won both times. At one point I had A-10 of hearts, and the first two cross cards were Q-J of hearts. I had an inside draw to a Royal! I tripled up my Middle bet, and 1x on my Down bet. The Down cards came up A-Q, and the Middle came up A, so I had 2 pair on the Board, a pair of Aces on Cross, and trips on Down and Middle.

After playing for a couple hours, I cashed out $315. I was up as much as $225, and as much down about the same, the second time I had to go to pocket for another black chip.

The dealers are having a hard time with the game. I saw two different dealers pay 10s rather than push them. In one instance, the dealer swept a player's hand that had a pair of 10s: the player stopped him, expecting a push, and the dealer called the supervisor over, backed up the cards, and then PAID the 10s rather than pushing them, with the supervisor standing there agreeing. This was about 15 minutes after I'd asked the same dealer and super when looking at my hole cards, "10s push, right?" And getting an affirmative. My lips were sealed, it wasn't my hand. The other time, it happened so fast I had to rewind in my mind, but it definitely happened. That player, too, was surprised. I imagine lowering the pay table to pay 10s changes the expected value of the game.

Chit chat around the table about how to play is split. Most players play every hand. Others play similar to how I played. I didn't see anyone getting aggressive with stuff like QJ suited. Everyone recognizes that there is a bet/bankroll situation, where if you want to bet more than $5 a hand you'd better have a big bankroll, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to big a big bankroll to a game like Criss Cross. So, it's pretty much a $5 or $10 ante game, or things get out of hand pretty quickly. One dealer (I experienced 4 of them, playing at 2 separate tables) said that on the board in the back room, Criss Cross has far and away the highest hold in the casino. Players like it, the casino likes it, I think it's here to stay

Good report Mosca!! Indicating that you had fun playing even with the dramatic swings/variance & low hit rate in the game is certainly a positive. Player experience is the key driver of a game's success regardless of the math.

I think the key question is whether you are going to come back and play again?

The hindrance to repeat play for most players is the high hold rate. If you feel like most times you play a game, your bankroll gets whacked, it is tough to keep coming back to play. I think that is what MrSuit31 is alluding to in his remarks. Players are willing to lose money given the right player experience in return.....and that secret sauce is the illusive mixture every game developer is trying to include in their games.

I agree with MrSuit31, from my developer's perspective, the math doesn't make the game look like a successful formula. That being said, you can look at a game like UTH with a hold rate typically over 30% for most properties and think that is too high to succeed as well......yet it is the hottest game around in my opinion. So it all comes down to player experience.

When I played a few hands at G2E, I came away saying the game was difficult to deal and their is a lot of my bankroll units on the felt in order to see if I won. Now my sample size was small and it wasn't like we had a trained dealer at the table......it was a "model dealer".

Time will tell as the game has some traction with over 15 installs as of the AGS press release pre G2E. I am sure they have secured additional installations since October. The game is out there and now will be voted on using players bankrolls......frankly, that is all you can ask for as a developer. Get it out there and let's see what the players have to say.

While everyone agrees "only time will tell", perhaps it's time to rewind to One for the Money. It was opened January 2014. It has been over 10 months. Perhaps Barb wouldn't mind sharing the placement experiences.

My guess is you may get a response by asking for the update in that thread. I know it wasn't at Bally's G2E's booth in September which would indicate to me it wasn't a hot game for them. In comparison, Free Bet was present again (is that 2 or 3 years in a row?), with a new side bet.

Quote: Paradigm

My guess is you may get a response by asking for the update in that thread. I know it wasn't at Bally's G2E's booth in September which would indicate to me it wasn't a hot game for them. In comparison, Free Bet was present again (is that 2 or 3 years in a row?), with a new side bet.

Geoff's pot of gold sidebet was a great addition. I liked it much more than the push 22 sidebet.

Quote: Paradigm

Good report Mosca!! Indicating that you had fun playing even with the dramatic swings/variance & low hit rate in the game is certainly a positive. Player experience is the key driver of a game's success regardless of the math.

I think the key question is whether you are going to come back and play again?

Borgata is a 3 hour drive, and I wouldn't go ANYWHERE for a specific game. If Criss Cross cane to my home casino, I'd play it, but for $5 instead of $10.

Quote: Paradigm

The hindrance to repeat play for most players is the high hold rate. If you feel like most times you play a game, your bankroll gets whacked, it is tough to keep coming back to play. I think that is what MrSuit31 is alluding to in his remarks. Players are willing to lose money given the right player experience in return.....and that secret sauce is the illusive mixture every game developer is trying to include in their games.

I agree with MrSuit31, from my developer's perspective, the math doesn't make the game look like a successful formula. That being said, you can look at a game like UTH with a hold rate typically over 30% for most properties and think that is too high to succeed as well......yet it is the hottest game around in my opinion. So it all comes down to player experience.

Although I presented counter arguments to MrSuit31, I respect his experience as a game developer and agree with him, the game does have a rather formidable hill to climb. In its favor, for some reason it has a really strong hook. It creates the itch, then scratches the hell out of it.

Quote: Paradigm

When I played a few hands at G2E, I came away saying the game was difficult to deal and their is a lot of my bankroll units on the felt in order to see if I won. Now my sample size was small and it wasn't like we had a trained dealer at the table......it was a "model dealer".

Notice in my report that two different dealers paid 10s, one of them with a supervisor watching and agreeing verbally with the pay. And the supervisors weren't the regular pit bosses, they were there specifically to watch the game get dealt. One of them (not the one who paid 10s) even said, "Okay, I'll watch a couple more hands and then you're good to go on your own." Regarding the bankroll, I'd like to be able to fold halfway through and play what I'd already posted.

Quote: Paradigm

Time will tell as the game has some traction with over 15 installs as of the AGS press release pre G2E. I am sure they have secured additional installations since October. The game is out there and now will be voted on using players bankrolls......frankly, that is all you can ask for as a developer. Get it out there and let's see what the players have to say.

Yep. If it dies, it deserved to die regardless of what I think about it.

Quote: Mosca

Borgata is a 3 hour drive, and I wouldn't go ANYWHERE for a specific game. If Criss Cross cane to my home casino, I'd play it, but for $5 instead of $10.

I didn't realize that you were so far from home when you played Criss Cross :-).....the fact that if it was at your home casino, you would play is a one vote for game and that is what I was trying to ask.

Quote: Mosca

Notice in my report that two different dealers paid 10s, one of them with a supervisor watching and agreeing verbally with the pay. And the supervisors weren't the regular pit bosses, they were there specifically to watch the game get dealt. One of them (not the one who paid 10s) even said, "Okay, I'll watch a couple more hands and then you're good to go on your own." Regarding the bankroll, I'd like to be able to fold halfway through and play what I'd already posted.

I was attempting to indicate I agreed with your observations on the dealer difficulty based on what I had seen. What is really crazy is that the game is holding at a high rate despite the dealer errors in the players favor.

Quote: mosc

Yep. If it dies, it deserved to die regardless of what I think about it.

But what you think about it is a much better indicator than what a developer (e.g. me) thinks about it based on math analysis, experience, etc. The players, and that means you in this case, determine the outcome :-).

i am going to have to sit down with this one again and play a some more hands........want to see if my opinion of the fun factor changes on this game and if that is enough to outweigh the big swings. I will say that Miss Stud is a better game for me since I was forced by a friend to sit down and play it live. Of course I won, which always helps, but regardless, it was a better experience than I expected. Maybe the same will be true for Criss Cross....I'll be in Vegas in early Jan so perhaps I'll head over to Planet Hollywood and give it a try (I think that is where it is installed).

Quote: UCivan

While everyone agrees "only time will tell", perhaps it's time to rewind to One for the Money. It was opened January 2014. It has been over 10 months. Perhaps Barb wouldn't mind sharing the placement experiences.

Edit: I had posted an update here, but I think it's more appropriate in my earlier thread, as someone else suggested, so please read here if you're interested. Thanks!

This is an old thread but I thought I'd add that they recently brought this to Mt. Airy in PA, and I played for about 20 hours straight. It was a very fun game- and I feel like I have a good sense for what draws people into MS stud, LiR, etc- not playing against a dealer is something people like, with opportunities to raise and win big. Four of a kind in this game is better than LiR. I feel confident this game will stay, and spread.

You do almost need it to be at $5 minimum though, given that you have five spots on the table (six if you include the bonus that everyone plays) and optimal strategy has you playing all the way through the vast majority of the time...even a mid/low card in the hole is playable, unlike MS Stud. It remained at $5 at Mt. Airy on a saturday night when every other game was 10 or 15 and up, even MS stud.

Quote: cmc0605

This is an old thread but I thought I'd add that they recently brought this to Mt. Airy in PA, and I played for about 20 hours straight. It was a very fun game- and I feel like I have a good sense for what draws people into MS stud, LiR, etc- not playing against a dealer is something people like, with opportunities to raise and win big. Four of a kind in this game is better than LiR. I feel confident this game will stay, and spread.

You do almost need it to be at $5 minimum though, given that you have five spots on the table (six if you include the bonus that everyone plays) and optimal strategy has you playing all the way through the vast majority of the time...even a mid/low card in the hole is playable, unlike MS Stud. It remained at $5 at Mt. Airy on a saturday night when every other game was 10 or 15 and up, even MS stud.

Did U win or lose after 20 hours? If U did not lose "enough", casino operator would not be happy to see this. What I am trying to say is that this game might not last long in that casino, if all players liked the game and couldn't lose playing 20 hours. On the other hand, if you were one of the few lucky players on the table, then it's OK.

Quote: UCivan

Did U win or lose after 20 hours? If U did not lose "enough", casino operator would not be happy to see this. What I am trying to say is that this game might not last long in that casino, if all players liked the game and couldn't lose playing 20 hours. On the other hand, if you were one of the few lucky players on the table, then it's OK.

I was lucky enough...had three full houses in that interval, two community and one my own. A lot of people lost.

Quote: UCivan

Did U win or lose after 20 hours? If U did not lose "enough", casino operator would not be happy to see this. What I am trying to say is that this game might not last long in that casino, if all players liked the game and couldn't lose playing 20 hours. On the other hand, if you were one of the few lucky players on the table, then it's OK.

At Borgata it has the highest hold percentage of any table game. Everyone bets everything all the time.

Do U know the hold %? over 30%?

Quote: Mosca

At Borgata it has the highest hold percentage of any table game. Everyone bets everything all the time.

That was my experience at Airy. Some folds from the gut with two low cards but not usually. No one played the across/down play wagers then folded before the middle. Admittedly, I often folded unsuited mid/low cards in the hole.