EZ Gai Pow Poker needs a Thread of it's own sir!

Quote: Paigowdan

-- Just tonight at the Fiesta Henderson, a new player tried my EZ Pai Gow...

(from another thread)

The Wizard's web page says "Commission Free Pai Gow Poker... is not to be confused with the game EZ Pai Gow Poker, which I hope to address in depth soon."

I think this is the only mention he makes of it, so I wanted to clear up in my own mind why I thought I had heard of it before. It must just have been this mention. So, sir, how about expanding a little on this game? You know darn well you have spiked some interest [g]. If you described it I missed it. What about the issue of Intellectual Property, how are you handling your interests there?

Quote: odiousgambit

What about the issue of Intellectual Property, how are you handling your interests there?

That interests me too. I have a game rattling around in my head, but I suspect it will stay there, because the cost of patenting it and getting it in a casino seem out of my reach.

How did you do it?

Okay, guys...RE: EZ Pai Gow.

1. EZ Pai Gow IS commission-free "regular" Pai Gow Poker. It is NOT related to any PG game that lets you "slide" on the commission IF you play a certain amount on a bonus that has a poorer payout - and makes you pay the commission if you do.

EZ Pai Gow substitutes the commission by pushing all hands' main bet whenever the dealer has a Queen-high Pai Gow hand, and has full-payout bonus bets and Pai Gow insurance. The queen-high push happens once in every 58 hands, so it is NOT disruptive.

2. About Intellectual property and game development. BOY, THIS WAS A JOURNEY AND A HALF! But DJ, it was NOT expensive to get started - it was expense to continue on after things looked "all systems go". Let me continue:

After I came up with the qualifier idea to replace the commission,

a) I checked the USPTO.gov patent website to see is anyone had come up with the same or similar idea for Pai Gow Poker. They hadn't. Cost of this = $0.

b) I learned how to write a "provisional" (initial) patent, then wrote it and shipped it off with the correct forms, and a money order for $110. I got back an error report (the document had to be double spaced for micro-fiching and filming), I sent it off again correct, and got it filed.

c) I wrote the provisional patent with some "wiggle room," so that if I needed to adjust the qualification mechanism higher or lower, I was able. By this I mean specifying that the qualifer hand can be any level of dealer's Pai Gow hand, any combination or pai gow hands (e.q., jack-high and less, versus Queen-high only). Also by anticipating the wiggle room on the patent, I close off a competitor from trying to get around my patent by implimenting something close or similar to my patent. By specifying wider and still reasonable ranges of the mechanism, I am safer.

d) when I got the Patent Filing Receipt back with the application number from ther patent office, I was safe to discuss it and test it out with industry people. Only then do you share your secret new invention - because someone WILL try to steal it, if it has any merit. Horror Stories abound all over the place of losing your Intellectual Proprty by discussing it and testing it before you have the filing receipt. I tested the game by dealing it to friends and associates, seeing what needed to be changed, and it worked. I then wrote a small Product Description Guide and How-to-Play card on the advice of a gaming industry associate.

e) Then I pitched it to someone I knew at DEQ, a VP named Paul, who invented Texas Hold 'em Bonus, and he said it would be a perfect fit for them, because they distriubute EZ Baccarat, a commission-free form of Baccarat that is doing well.

3. I signed a contract with DEQ, April '09, leasing the patent and the game idea to them, giving them 80% of the revenue and 20% for me. This is a good ratio, very standard, as the distributor has to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars licensing the game all over the place. It is also generally better than what Book authors get. If I tried to sell the game directly, I would have needed $300,000 to start a company, get licensed in dozens of gaming jurisdictions for those fees, hire salesmen who knew the industry to sell and distribute the game, and all the like. That was impossible. Since the situation was similar to being a book author, I did not need to start a full-blown paper mill printing, binding, and publishing company just to distribute a book, I went to a distributor. I think Hop-bet Inc., the Fire-bet people, did it themselves, but their product may be in fewer areas, and it certainly has less competition. With Pai Gow Poker, a number of vendors have versions.

Since the contract was by then signed with DEQ, I was able to get $50,000 in investment money through my business partner Steve and his contacts, and then got the math done by a fine Canadian mathematician, (a referal from the Wizard). I then got the provisional patent converted to a utility patent by having a patent lawyer and a draftsman convert it to a utility patent. The Wizard is 100% correct when he states it takes a minimum of $40 to $50K to get a game out through a distributor.

I had to act VERY quickly on things because the holder of a provisional patent has only one year to convert the cheap ($110) initial patent filing to a full utility patent filing. If you miss the deadline, the game idea becomes Public Domain, and anyone can use it for free. No joke, here!

The cost of the math and patent was expensive, it was about $20,000 for the math with all the variations and changes, and the patent was about $27,000. I was definately told I overpaid for the patent side, but I got a first class job done. I had to have a thorough job done, because the gaming industry is VERY cut-throat, and there is Pai Gow competition. I didn't want an Industry competitor taking any legal pot-shots at me via legal warfare. I needed the patent to be bullet-proof, and got the best gaming patent lawyers available.

Once I had the patent and math report, I submitted the math report to DEQ, so that they were able to get gaming approval for the product in many states through GLI Laboratories, as well as Nevada gaming for here. The math report and the patent are the two things that the game inventor always has to pay for; the Distributor pays for all gaming licensing of the product and the material costs (layouts, electrical signage, etc.)

Naming the product was done by DEQ, and they christened and trademarked the name EZ Pai Gow, because it is similar in its market-niche to their commission-free sister product, EZ Baccarat product. I had originally called it Tao Pai Gow, but had not trademarked any name myself.

I didn't argue with anything or any changes that DEQ wanted to do: naming conventions, choice of casinos to initially install the product, creating an additional wild-joker version of it for the Southern California market, etc. They know how to intro a game better than I do.

I did later argue with DEQ about not pushing and selling the product hard enough, but their response was that they needed to see that it was performing perfectly - without any bugs - before doing an expensive full-scale launch, after all the money they spent. This was reasonable, but it took a LOT of time. By this time right now (almost a year and a half later - which is actually QUICK!) my investors were begining to read me the RIOT ACT about how slowly the product was moving, and that they STILL hadn't seen ANY MONEY BACK! I needed status and marketing reports from DEQ to defend myself, but they don't like releasing documentation for legal reasons, so the situation was hairy at times with my investors.
The product had been "kept in an incubator" for a while, but now we are getting some advertising and promotion by DEQ. The product is just now out of the incubator, and is now live in five states, with a handful in each one. (California has four tables; Missouri, Iowa, and Indiana each have one or two, and Nevada has one at the Fiesta Henderson.)

All feedback has been fantastic, better than I could hope for, because of the front-end work done, so now (June '10) DEQ is going to roll out a wide advertising and promotion campaign, according to them.

This is where we are now with the new game.

Wow. It seems the first push to get the ball rolling is downright cheap. I'm gonna rattle the head and look into this some more.

Thanks for that through report.

I just re-read this.

Are you saying that you only spent $110 before signing a deal with DEQ?



(by the way, who is DEQ? Never heard of them.)

DJ -
Yes, pretty much, it was cheap - to START.

To develop a new game, all that is needed is this (and it's all cheap up front):

a) a game idea, a GOOD game idea - from a "gambling brainstorm" session of sorts;
b) testing out the idea on the kitchen table and a deck of cards, with a linen sheet marked up like a layout. This is all about $10.
c) revising the game idea so that it is a SIMPLE and EASY idea for any player to pick up. Describe your idea succintly. If it takes more than 30 seconds to describe the basic game idea and play, it is too awkward to play.
d) an HONEST assesment that it is a FUN game idea that people will want to play.
e) That the math is correct. You don't need to program, but you DO need to know how to use a calculator or Excel spreadsheet and have some basic gaming math knowledge. (I was both a computer programmer and a high school math teacher before I was a dealer, so I had an advantage here.) USE Michael Shackleford's site, and read his more detailed and "nerdier" math areas to get an idea of how game calculation works.
f) One you have a solid idea of your game, then READ the appropriate sections in the USPTO patent website, (www.uspto.gov), and write a provisional patent of 5 pages or so - in the format they specify. You just basically describe HOW the game idea works in plain English, and send it off they way they want you to format that document. It does take a little while to get the hang of this. Do spend a lot of time thinking about the game, and how to describe it accurately in procedure, step by step, as well as in general "jist."
g) THEN send the document off with the appropriate forms, a self-address postcard, and a money order for about $110-$120 for a "small business" status. If you did your job correctly, you'll get a filing number.
i) With a filing number, have a "new game party" to demo it. Show it off to knowledgeable people, and get - and listen to - feedback.
j) write a small product description guide on your game - say 10 pages, describing the market, the math, and the like.
k) now shop it around. Contact industry people.

Total cost is less than $200, but it takes up a good bit of time sketching things out up front.

This is the TIP of the ice berg!! There is a HUGE amount of trial and error and work that'll come once it appears that the idea is viable, and you decide go forward from there. And from there you will THEN be taking one hell of a leap in your life!

And you have only one year from your filing date to come up with about $8K for a utility patent (I paid much more), and $5K for math. A straightforward game idea can be fully patented and mathematically verified for $15K at the cheapest with meticulous upfront work done. But you BETTER make sure that it is something some distributor would want.
Due to trial and error in the real world, consider $40K the number, within one year out.

Great info!

I'd love to play this game. Where in Missouri is the EZ Pai Gow table?

Also, Illinois could use some Pai Gow. How can we make that happen?

Finsrule,
Thanks!

In Missouri it's with the Ameristar Casino in St. Charles/St. Louis,
and the Ameristar in Kansas City.
And it's in Illinois, at the Ameristar in East Chicago.

Ameristar seems to have adopted both EZ Pai Gow and EZ Baccarat. Bless 'em!

Great! I'm tempted to head over to Ameristar right now, but I probably shouldn't.

Also - East Chicago is actually not in Illinois, it's in Indiana. Strange, I know. There is actually not a Pai Gow table left in Illinois. Casino Queen in East St. Louis (Illinois, strange I know) used to have one, and they got rid of it.

DJ -

Players in the table games market:

DEQ is a distributor of casino games, Like Shuffle Master and Galazy Gaming.
DEQ has the G3 table Bonusing system, Carribean Stud, the EZ commission-free games, lucky player jackpot, and some great progressive jackpot systems, etc. They have a progressive jackpot on EZ Pai Gow in California, and it hit for $47,000 in March.

Shufflemaster (SMI) has Three Card Poker, Fortune Pai Gow, Rapid Roulette, etc., and is the big boy on the block.

Galaxy has Lucky ladies side bet for BJ, Emperor's Challenge, and just acquired the Table game Deuces Wild.

Hop-bet, Inc. has only one product, the fire bet for Crap tables, betting that 3 or more points will be hit before a Seven-out.

Quote: Paigowdan

Okay, guys...RE: EZ Pai Gow.

Very interesting how you can get eaten alive without doing it right and sounds like you got good advice all along the way. Good luck to you, I will look for the game.

Dan -

You've definitely inspired me. I'm gonna start getting that ball rolling very soon....

Thanks.

Quote: FinsRule

Great! I'm tempted to head over to Ameristar right now, but I probably shouldn't.

Also - East Chicago is actually not in Illinois, it's in Indiana. Strange, I know. There is actually not a Pai Gow table left in Illinois. Casino Queen in East St. Louis (Illinois, strange I know) used to have one, and they got rid of it.

Northwest Indiana may as well be in Illinois. Its more similar to the Chicago area than it is to the rest of Indiana.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Dan -

You've definitely inspired me. I'm gonna start getting that ball rolling very soon....

Thanks.

Since he says the first step is free, you ought to at least do that! [g]

Somehow I managed to get a good night's sleep, despite going to bed excited about the possibilities...



Dan -

If you don't mind, and you have it handy, I'd like to see the 'plain English' document that you submitted with that $110 step.

I had tried to do some research to see if my idea had already been taken, but whatever research I did, hit lots of documents written in legaleaze. It was impossible to wade thru it. What little I did look at, seems completely irrelevant to my search.


If you want to continue this conversation privately, my email address is:
djtb @ djteddybear.com
(take out the spaces)

The FIRST time you send me email, you'll get an instant reply from my spam blocker. Just reply to that message.

FYI: If ANYONE wants to send me email, feel free.


Thanks

DJ -

The provisional patent is an absolutely crucial step, and a good example of it helps IMMENSELY.
It'll show you the language to use, the organization of the document, and the formatting.
In contrast to the final "Utility patent" version of it, the language of the provisional patent is:

1. Very Plain Descriptive English (and NOT legalese from the inventor)

2. The organization is straightforward, and is broken into a number of sections:

a) TITLE OF INVENTION - the invention's name, and inventor's name and address
b) CROSS REFERENCES - list any other patent that is similar, or that your idea builds on.
c) STATEMENT REGARDING FEDERAL SPONSORSHIP. Just mention "Not applicable."
d) BACKGROUND OF INVENTION - Briefly describe the Industry (casino/gaming), the area where your invention fits in (table game), the problem with the current crop of games, and how your game is played and how it helps or provides something novel.

e) BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION - describe your game in thirty to eighty words; a "blurb" on it.

f) DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE GAME - describe the rules of your game, then in detail describe how you would play and deal the game, with every possible game event listed, and the results of every game result described.

i) CLAIMS - this is where you describe the mechanisms and features that are NEW and UNIQUE to your game, that you will own as Intellectual property. You describe a mechanism that you use with a wide range; for example you do not say "I CLAIM THE DEALER PUSHES ON A QUEEN HIGH PAI GOW HAND." You say, "I claim the DEALER DOES NOT QUALIFY WHEN HE HAS A SPECIFIC PAI GOW HAND, AND SO THE DEALER ALTERS THE PAYOUT TO THE PLAYERS DURING THIS SCENARIO, TO PROVIDE FOR THE HOUSE EDGE." This way you are not limited to one Pai Gow hand level, and you are not limited to exactly a push as the payout. For example, you can make the Jack-high or lower pai gow hand the qualifier, and you are also not limited to a push; you can give a half-pay, or you can declare a player loss, etc, as the mechanism, under the wider description of the BROADLY written claim. THIS "CLEAR AND WIDE" METHOD OF DESCRIPTION APPLIES TO ANY TYPE OF GAME MECHANISM AND ANY TYPE OF GAME.

j) ABSTRACT OF THE DISCLOSURE - this is where you write a one paragraph summary of your game invention.

You write your basic provisional patent with this format,
You print this out at 1.5 or double spacing (do NOT single space this document)
You send it in with forms SB/01, SB/16, SB/17 filled out and signed, a money order, with a self-addressed postcard describing what you included and had send.
Once you get the postcard back (or the filing letter receipt), you can now discuss and refine your idea.
You have one year to file the "permanent" utility patent.

The Government's patent office site is www.uspto.gov

DJ, I have to check with my lawyer if I can send you a copy of my provisional patent for EZ Pai Gow; if not I can send you another game example.

Thanks,
Dan

Quote: Paigowdan

DJ, I have to check with my lawyer if I can send you a copy of my provisional patent for EZ Pai Gow; if not I can send you another game example.

I got the email with the other example. Thanks a million. No need to see the EZ Pai Gow version.

I really was shocked that it was plain english, particularly when doing any kind of search at www.uspto.gov left me bleary-eyed from the legaleze.

I think I have add a certain small casino in Henderson to my ToDo list when I visit Vegas in September! :)

DJ -
One of the biggest mistakes non-lawyer inventors do is to try to write legalize - when Patent examiners already speak regular English!

You need to demonstrate your idea provably and clearly in a provisional patent, and not to attempt to baffle anyone with bullsh*t! You'll just piss 'em off and get rejected!

Indeed, the better and wiser lawyers also make documents CLEAR and READABLE. And if legalese MUST be used, leave that for the patent attorney!!!

Believe me, many inventors were punished by Patent examiners and Patent judges in their decisions for trying to obfuscate their points, instead of describing and proving them clearly - especially in a legal setting. You CANNOT baffle a sharp Patent judge or examiner with B.S.! Waste a Patent examiner or judge's time, and you'd be wasting your own time and money!


And the GAME still has to be GOOOOD!! 99% of the table game patents out there on the Patent site are ignored as utter garbage by the gaming industry!!

A patent is NOT a feather in anyone's cap - it is just a small but crucial part of the process of getting an invention out into the real business world.
Making it to the promised land of "game inventorhood" is when a casino manager says, "Yes - I'll pick up two tables and try it out!"

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I really was shocked that it was plain english, particularly when doing any kind of search at www.uspto.gov left me bleary-eyed from the legaleze.

A patent has got to do its job cleanly and clearly, in a straightforward fashion. The legalize is for the lawyers in the final Utility patent, and even then, not overdone.

Quote: Paigowdan

Making it to the promised land of "game inventorhood" is when a casino manager says, "Yes - I'll pick up two tables and try it out!"

I know that.

I read http://www.gamingmath.com/new-games.html a few months ago.

I am NOT overly optimistic. Or even marginally optimistic. But for about a hundred bucks for the first legal step, I'll roll the dice!