Pai Gow Tiles Bonus Bets?

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January 22nd, 2014 at 9:56:08 AM permalink

Hustler Casino offered a bonus on PG tiles high hands... you didn't even need to put a side bet out. The flyer is from 2009 but the Web site actually says they still offer the bonus payouts.

http://hustlercasino.com/docs/Pai%20Gow%20Flyer%20FA.pdf

I am not sure how popular a side bet in PG tiles would be. It's such an old, traditional game that a side bet just doesn't feel right. However, it might be interesting to try.

Deucekies

Deucekies

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:35:38 AM permalink

Games with bonus bets are generally patented by someone. If you were to invent such a game, you would have it patented as well. Proprietary games usually, if not always, must be rented by casinos as opposed to non-proprietary games like straight blackjack or straight Pai Gow Poker.

I'm assuming Pai Gow Tiles is non-proprietary, so any proprietary version would have to promise a significant increase in play and hold in order to justify renting a table that they already own.

Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm

Aussie

Aussie

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January 22nd, 2014 at 3:31:02 PM permalink

This has already been done. They have more or less the same thing at Crown Casino in Australia.

GeeJun & Teen Pair - 200-1
GeeJun & Day Pair - 60-1
Teen Pair & Day Pair - 30-1
Lame Duck (high six,low six,any 7, any 4)- 20-1
Any 2 pairs - 12-1
GeeJun, Teen Pair Or Day Pair - 5-1
Any pair - 2-1
Wong - 1-1

http://www.crownmelbourne.com.au/Assets/Files/Crown%20Pai%20Gow.pdf

charliepatrick

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January 22nd, 2014 at 5:22:14 PM permalink

There was a sidebet in London (Empire I think) based on the dice thrown to determine who receives the first hand. I forget the odds but say any pair gets 2-1, any triple gets 4-1.

ontariodealer

ontariodealer

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January 22nd, 2014 at 6:04:11 PM permalink

one day I was dealing tiles and on the tv by the table a horse race was going off with six horses in it.....I had six players and told them all to give me a quarter and whoever's number won the race would win the $1.50.....when the winner hit i gave the guy $1.25 and dropped the .25 in the box, "juice I told him". My pit wasn't amused.

get second you pig

Tomspur

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January 22nd, 2014 at 6:39:36 PM permalink

In order for a side bet to be profitable it needs to have volume of play. There isn't really any casino in Vegas that has such a large amount of play on at least 5 tables at one time that would justify paying a vig for this game.

Personally I think that tiles should just fade away into the sunset. There just isn't enough interest in the game.

I mean the game isn't even played in Macau for goodness sakes :)

I like the game and I can deal and supervise it but there simply isn't the critical mass out there to justify having the game on the floor.

Rather stick "one for the money" out there......(just for you Babs!!) LOL

�There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.� - Winston Churchill

sodawater

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January 22nd, 2014 at 7:08:14 PM permalink

Tomspur,

Did you ever consider that a player who likes PG tiles might also be a big-time player in the BJ or Bacc pits? And he might choose to visit one house over another because they offer PG tiles?

The typical PG tiles player is an older Chinese guy with a lot of money who also enjoys a lot of other games -- at least where I play.

beachbumbabs

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January 22nd, 2014 at 7:08:51 PM permalink

Quote: Tomspur
In order for a side bet to be profitable it needs to have volume of play. There isn't really any casino in Vegas that has such a large amount of play on at least 5 tables at one time that would justify paying a vig for this game.

Personally I think that tiles should just fade away into the sunset. There just isn't enough interest in the game.

I mean the game isn't even played in Macau for goodness sakes :)

I like the game and I can deal and supervise it but there simply isn't the critical mass out there to justify having the game on the floor.

Rather stick "one for the money" out there......(just for you Babs!!) LOL

Tom,

If they put One for the Money in someplace and take out a PaiGowTiles to do it, I will be embarrassed. Pretty much anything else, buh-bye. Pai Gow Tiles is the Chess of casino games. One for the Money is like Crazy 8's. Simple, fun, fast; anybody can feel competent after 5 minutes and be correct. There's a place for both, with almost no intersecting players. Exception; I think there will be Bacc players who like both for different reasons.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

JB
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JB

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January 22nd, 2014 at 7:23:19 PM permalink

Quote: Tomspur
Personally I think that tiles should just fade away into the sunset. There just isn't enough interest in the game.

You have obviously never been to Foxwoods.

Quote: Tomspur
I mean the game isn't even played in Macau for goodness sakes :)

It is, it's just hard to find. Also, you aren't allowed to look at your tiles in the Macau version.

Tomspur

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January 22nd, 2014 at 8:19:19 PM permalink

With Foxwoods being the exception Pai Gow Tiles is not a well enough played game in order to make it viable for a side bet. That was basically my premise.

Babs, your game absolutely has a place on any casino floor. The only trouble is when a new placement takes place, most of the times it has to actually replace a game, albeit temporarily or permanently......most of the times.

Which game do you think the casinos will be most amicable to part ways with?
JB, thanks for the link. I have been in almost all the casinos in Macau and I have never seen Pai Gow poker or Pai Gow tiles....

Seems like I need to go back and do more homework :)

�There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.� - Winston Churchill

AxiomOfChoice

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January 22nd, 2014 at 8:20:28 PM permalink

Quote: Tomspur
Which game do you think the casinos will be most amicable to part ways with?

Let it Ride. Especially if you already have MS Stud.

ontariodealer

ontariodealer

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January 22nd, 2014 at 8:24:50 PM permalink

our tiles action is pretty big in so. ont. The rumors here is that car stud poker is on the way out.

get second you pig

Tomspur

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January 22nd, 2014 at 8:27:22 PM permalink

Quote: AxiomOfChoice
Let it Ride. Especially if you already have MS Stud.

And for me MS Stud would be out the door pretty quick as I don't trust the game and Let It Ride has a following.

ontariodealer, yeah CSP is pretty much donzo outside of Asia.

�There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.� - Winston Churchill

beachbumbabs

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January 22nd, 2014 at 8:35:27 PM permalink

Tom,

I played MS Stud in Biloxi and genuinely didn't like it. 4 bets with a force-out on every card. Cards have to run really well to hang in there, and I had a terrible run of nothing, or worse; come-on cards that didn't pan out, which is more expensive than losing ante after ante. So I wouldn't mind replacing it with OftM, sorry to the guy who invented it. But I think it's both new and on the upswing, though playing in Mississippi seems to help the popularity.

I'd love to take the place of Caribbean Stud and have a run like it had. I think Let It Ride has refreshed nicely, putting the pairs plus bet on the front, and gained back a following, but I see it played less and less where I play, and didn't even see anyone on it at the Grand. Not even sure they had it, now that I think of it.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

Tomspur

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January 22nd, 2014 at 8:45:39 PM permalink

Babs,

Yeah each person is going to feel differently about a lot of games. My point with Tiles is that you could perhaps have 1 table in your casino (not Foxwoods) and open that table with 1 player action perhaps once a week.
At Mandalay Bay you had to make an appointment with a host in order to get the game opened. It stood closed for months before 1 player showed up with a $10k marker. Played 10 hands and left........

The game just doesn't have a mass market following (in my opinion) and the gaming space can be better utilized with something else.

�There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.� - Winston Churchill

MathExtremist

MathExtremist

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January 22nd, 2014 at 8:57:29 PM permalink

Quote: Tomspur
In order for a side bet to be profitable it needs to have volume of play. There isn't really any casino in Vegas that has such a large amount of play on at least 5 tables at one time that would justify paying a vig for this game.

Personally I think that tiles should just fade away into the sunset. There just isn't enough interest in the game.

That's because it's too hard to deal and, frankly, too much effort to learn for the typical gambler. The rules and scoring are based on ancient ranking schemes that aren't intuitive at all. You need to memorize them, in very much the same way that you need to memorize different hands in poker like flush or straight (and which is greater). It's not self-evident.

And dealing it is very difficult because the house way is very complex. The house way for blackjack is "dealer hits until 17." The house way for Pai Gow is this: https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-tiles/house-way/foxwoods/. It's hard to find enough qualified dealers to even spread the game, and combined with the lack of new players willing to learn it, its future isn't particularly bright.

If you want to replace Pai Gow, replace it with a tiles game that (a) makes intuitive sense to players and (b) is easy for even junior dealers to deal. Like Twist'em. I'm obviously biased in favor of my own game, but I do think there's a strong tactile appeal to playing with physical tiles that can't be duplicated with cards.

And I know for a fact that Twist'em is easy to deal because I once had a dealer figure out the game merely by watching me demo it to someone else. I didn't even know she was behind me until she took the tiles and dealt a few hands -- correctly.

"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

Wizard
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Wizard

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January 22nd, 2014 at 9:13:11 PM permalink

Quote: Aussie
This has already been done. They have more or less the same thing at Crown Casino in Australia.

Here is my analysis of that.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

tringlomane

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January 22nd, 2014 at 9:34:16 PM permalink

Quote: beachbumbabs
Tom,

I played MS Stud in Biloxi and genuinely didn't like it. 4 bets with a force-out on every card. Cards have to run really well to hang in there, and I had a terrible run of nothing, or worse; come-on cards that didn't pan out, which is more expensive than losing ante after ante. So I wouldn't mind replacing it with OftM, sorry to the guy who invented it. But I think it's both new and on the upswing, though playing in Mississippi seems to help the popularity.

You just haven't hit quads hit for $2000, babs. :P It's quite popular in the midwest too. I have hit quads on wiz's play money game. And I've definitely played a lot less than 4000 hands. But I definitely can't afford the swingiest table game in the casino. :(

Quote: Tomspur
And for me MS Stud would be out the door pretty quick as I don't trust the game and Let It Ride has a following.

ontariodealer, yeah CSP is pretty much donzo outside of Asia.

Where does LIR outdo MS Stud? Vegas? It definitely outdoes LIR in the Midwest/Gulf Coast.

AxiomOfChoice

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January 22nd, 2014 at 9:38:12 PM permalink

Quote: tringlomane
You just haven't hit quads hit for $2000, babs. :P It's quite popular in the midwest too. I have hit quads on wiz's play money game. And I've definitely played a lot less than 4000 hands. But I definitely can't afford the swingiest table game in the casino. :(

Where does LIR outdo MS Stud? Vegas? It definitely outdoes LIR in the Midwest/Gulf Coast.

Playing quarters, start out with a high pair, make quads... win $10k.

It's not that infrequent either. Of course the problem is that you lose tons of money in between paying hands.

Tomspur

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January 22nd, 2014 at 9:42:29 PM permalink

Quote: tringlomane
Where does LIR outdo MS Stud? Vegas? It definitely outdoes LIR in the Midwest/Gulf Coast.

Does anywhere else really matter? LOL

�There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.� - Winston Churchill

beachbumbabs

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January 22nd, 2014 at 9:45:24 PM permalink

trin,

You are soooo right! A quads hit would make all the difference. But my beginner's luck was out to lunch that afternoon, I'm afraid. I played 120 hands for $5 ante, had 2 push pocket pairs improve to 2 pair (I max bet the push) in the first 10 hands, no win initial pair to ramp up, and sucked along on lots of medium SF/F hands that never hit and push/money cards that didn't pair. Folded crap cards 4 times to see money pairs on the board. I was the only person playing the whole time, though a couple of people stopped and watched a few hands, so it dealt fast. As Ross Perot said once, "Can ya hear that giant sucking sound?" That, for me, was Mississippi Mud, not Stud.

Maybe I'll give it another try somewhere else, but they cleaned my clock worse than any other game that trip.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

Mission146

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January 22nd, 2014 at 9:54:35 PM permalink

I've played one live hand of MS in my life and lost. I just wanted to say I played it.

Of course I got dealt a friggin' Pair of Fives and had to bet 3x knowing exactly how that would go, I looked at the fives, and then up at the dealer and said, "Really?"

It went exactly how I thought it would.

Had to bet 3x, it's the correct play.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

AxiomOfChoice

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:04:00 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
It went exactly how I thought it would.

Quad 5's? :D

sodawater

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:19:34 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
I've played one live hand of MS in my life and lost. I just wanted to say I played it.

Of course I got dealt a friggin' Pair of Fives and had to bet 3x knowing exactly how that would go, I looked at the fives, and then up at the dealer and said, "Really?"

It went exactly how I thought it would.

Had to bet 3x, it's the correct play.

What did you bet on the ante? If we had been playing together, I would have offered to buy your 5s for your ante plus 25 cents. Then you could have locked in a profit and say you've played MS.

Mission146

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:21:36 PM permalink

Nah, Full House, though...lol

I wish. I'll save the high variance for Video Poker where I am only betting $0.25 or $1.25 per hand.

I watched my $30 being whisked away and thought, "I could have played Video Keno for, like, six hours with that! Hell, I'd have probably lasted an hour at Craps if I took no odds."

Oh, well. At least I can say Mississippi Stud played me once. I'm still a lifetime winner on Ponies and Dogs, two of the other things I bet only once just to be able to say I did it.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Mission146

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:24:57 PM permalink

Quote: sodawater
What did you bet on the ante? If we had been playing together, I would have offered to buy your 5s for your ante plus 25 cents. Then you could have locked in a profit and say you've played MS.

I would have appreciated your offer, but declined, if your offer were a good offer, raising 3x would not be the correct play.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

tringlomane

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:27:46 PM permalink

Quote: Tomspur
Does anywhere else really matter? LOL

Although it would be impossible to prove since states like Nevada suck at clarity, but I still think MS Stud has a better gross revenue nationwide, even if it may be lagging a bit in Nevada. This prediction is bolstered by MS Stud generally having a higher hold %age than LIR. "Let It Die" is a inside joke on this forum...there is a reason.

Do PA casinos even offer LIR? Does anyone know?

sodawater

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:30:25 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
I would have appreciated your offer, but declined, if your offer were a good offer, raising 3x would not be the correct play.

So you should have been happy to see those 5s.

Tomspur

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January 22nd, 2014 at 10:32:44 PM permalink

Quote: tringlomane
Although it would be impossible to prove since states like Nevada suck at clarity, but I still think MS Stud has a better gross revenue nationwide, even if it may be lagging a bit in Nevada. This prediction is bolstered by MS Stud generally having a higher hold %age than LIR. "Let It Die" is a inside joke on this forum...there is a reason.

There are many other concerns with MS such as hole carding which can be very lucrative for AP's.

That alone will make it an uphill battle for MS Stud to gain traction in NV. I'm not saying impossible, nothing is impossible, just a little unlikely.

LIR is a joke, no doubt but better then devil you know than the devil you don't

�There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.� - Winston Churchill

Mission146

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January 22nd, 2014 at 11:02:21 PM permalink

Quote: tringlomane
Although it would be impossible to prove since states like Nevada suck at clarity, but I still think MS Stud has a better gross revenue nationwide, even if it may be lagging a bit in Nevada. This prediction is bolstered by MS Stud generally having a higher hold %age than LIR. "Let It Die" is a inside joke on this forum...there is a reason.

Do PA casinos even offer LIR? Does anyone know?

Yes, yes they do, I've seen it at The Meadows before. Thank you for asking. LOL

Why does everyone hate Let It Ride so much?

Mississippi Stud is a friggin' derivative, same basic principles, not taking your bet back is the same effective thing as making a one unit initial bet and then increasing the bet by a unit when you get favorable cards.

If Let it Ride had never existed, then Mississippi Stud would not have existed. I think the argument can be made for a few other games, as well.

It's a fundamental concept. It's like a person who likes Metal but declares that Classic Rock sucks, Metal is a derivative of rock which is a derivative of Blues/Jazz/Swing and Rhythm, you can't like Rock and categorically dismiss all of those types of music.

I'm not saying you have to play it, I'm not saying Blind Blake should be on your playlist, but a little respect, just a little?

/rant

By the way, Tring, the passive-aggressive/sarcastic tone was just me being facetious, nothing is meant personally. Most people would buy you a beer, I'd buy you two.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Mission146

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January 22nd, 2014 at 11:05:06 PM permalink

Quote: sodawater
So you should have been happy to see those 5s.

I'd have been much happier to see the other two.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

AxiomOfChoice

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January 22nd, 2014 at 11:10:50 PM permalink

Quote: Mission146
Yes, yes they do, I've seen it at The Meadows before. Thank you for asking. LOL

Why does everyone hate Let It Ride so much?

Mississippi Stud is a friggin' derivative, same basic principles, not taking your bet back is the same effective thing as making a one unit initial bet and then increasing the bet by a unit when you get favorable cards

The ability to 3-bet is what makes it so appealing. When you lose you are only losing 1-4 bets (depending if/when you fold). If you start with a high pair you get 10 bets out there and get paid between 1:1 and 40:1 on all 10 bets, depending on what you draw.

Basically, the variance is way higher, and when you are playing -EV games, you are paying for variance.

sodawater

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January 22nd, 2014 at 11:22:13 PM permalink

MS is a way better implementation of the concept behind LIR.

LIR might be the worst successful casino game ever invented.

tringlomane

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January 23rd, 2014 at 12:29:18 AM permalink

Quote: Mission146

By the way, Tring, the passive-aggressive/sarcastic tone was just me being facetious, nothing is meant personally. Most people would buy you a beer, I'd buy you two.

No prob, and your general argument is valid. If LIR didn't come first, there is a decent chance we wouldn't have MS Stud or something similar.

Quote: sodawater
MS is a way better implementation of the concept behind LIR.

I concur. But the variance is definitely isn't for the weak of heart, it's even worse than Ultimate Texas Hold'em, bleh. I personally got turned off by Let it Ride years ago because I don't think I have ever got trips in that game in my small sample...ugh. But that was a lesson learned. I'm not touching MS Stud with a $5 ante unless I try to get better at holecarding, which was a good point brought up ITT. Or I become rich enough where I don't care about the stakes of the game, of course.

beachbumbabs

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January 23rd, 2014 at 3:45:42 PM permalink

ME,

Went and played Twist 'Em for an hour last night via your link; what a clever game you have there! I found myself comfortable betting 20 main and 5 each sidebet. Also found that, the worse my hand was, the more I put the highest possible low hand to push the house. Is that the strategy break that defines house way vs. Optimum? I hated tying the high and losing the low for an overall loss, so I started playing with that. If that's the basis for the optimal, is there a break point?

I had 4 doubles twice, 3 doubles a bunch of times. The cool one was 4 9's. Made up for losing the tie by a long way.

Anyway, interesting, different, and fun. Is it in play anywhere yet?

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

sodawater