Played No Commission PGP at Borgata

I played no commission PGP at Borgata in AC last week. It was my first time with this type of PGP. When the dealer paid my bet I was confused. I was wondering why he did not take the house cut.
It was soon brought to my attention that it was the no commission version. The catch was a dealer queen high Pai Gow is a push. I played about 90 mins and had to push 2 winners for $80 each.
I think I prefer the original version. I also prefer that it is slower.

Slower? EZPG or the standard commission game?

Usually, the EZ version is faster, which is why the casinos are happy even though it has a slightly lower house edge.

And most players like it too, since you don't have to fart around with the damn quarters anymore.

"Scan" prefers that Pai Gow be slower and to pay the commissions.

I dealt EZ Pai Gow when it first came out, and a few people said "Hate it. It's faster, it has no commission, and it also has a lower house edge. What's to like?"

When dealing with gamblers, it's what you are acclimated to.
The biggest obstacle with new games is that "it's different" in some way.

Quote: Scan

I played about 90 mins and had to push 2 winners for $80 each.

I think there was some bad variance with Queen High PGP since he should have hit 87+ hands before getting a 2nd Q High Pai Gow (Q High occurs once every 58 hands and assuming it hits on hand 29 in the first set of 58 hands, so 29+58=87......Dan, am I thinking about that correctly?).......my guess is game speed isn't one hand per minute but maybe EZPGP is that fast or it was a heads up situation.

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Quote: Paigowdan

"Scan" prefers that Pai Gow be slower and to pay the commissions.

I dealt EZ Pai Gow when it first came out, and a few people said "Hate it. It's faster, it has no commission, and it also has a lower house edge. What's to like?"

When dealing with gamblers, it's what you are acclimated to.
The biggest obstacle with new games is that "it's different" in some way.

I assume you mean higher house edge?

I think PGD said in a past thread that the HE was 4-something rather than the 5% but the casinos were seeing a faster hand rate and lower error rate which was amounting to about the same so they were happier overall. I could be wrong.

Where are these installed in Las Vegas? I had only played it at Riv but they pulled the entire Asian pit.

Quote: rdw4potus

I assume you mean higher house edge?

No. Lower.

The queen high push takes less than the commission on wins.

Quote: Pokeraddict

Where are these installed in Las Vegas? I had only played it at Riv but they pulled the entire Asian pit.

Venetian and Palazzo, the Cannery Group, Fiesta Henderson, Boulder station, Hooters.

Thanks for the responses

I was commenting on my personal experience.

I felt pretty screwed when I pushed two winning hands to the dealer Queen high PG. it was like losing $160

Also I do prefer the slower version. I am primarily a craps player and I enjoy the "break" PG gives from the action at craps. ( and also to Blackjack)

Another thing this PG game came with a bunch of side bets. I think 3. I play the fortune for $5. But I ignored the others.

Finally. I am not sure how player banking works in this version. I did not see it nor did I ask about it. I know that the player can get a mathematical edge banking but I feel it just messes up the players karma. But I am weird that way.

Quote: Scan

Finally. I am not sure how player banking works in this version. I did not see it nor did I ask about it. I know that the player can get a mathematical edge banking but I feel it just messes up the players karma. But I am weird that way.

Most casinos do not allow banking on EZ Pai Gow Poker. As a result, the total aggregated house edge on EZ Pai Gow Poker is higher than it is on Fortune Pai Gow Poker.

I seem to recall when I played EZPG at the Golden Nugget they had a little sign saying it reverted to standard commission when banking. I don't normally bank so I didn't care and I prefer the EZPG to standard PGP. Unfortunately that table was often closed and eventually removed.

Quote: jml24

I seem to recall when I played EZPG at the Golden Nugget they had a little sign saying it reverted to standard commission when banking. I don't normally bank so I didn't care and I prefer the EZPG to standard PGP. Unfortunately that table was often closed and eventually removed.

Yes, that's how player banking has to work on EZ PGP. I've done it in some places, and it works OK. One problem is that it reintroduces the need for either quarters or $0.25 denominated chips, which is why most places don't allow banking on the EZ PGP game.

EZ PGP is my favorite PGP game by far (ribbing of the game's creator aside:-) ) but this issue is disappointing. I get that the operators have very limited options, but it does cut out a profitable opportunity for the player.

At the few places that have banking on EZ Pai Gow, many round up to the nearest dollar on banker's commissions, but forgive the non-banking player's commission.

Quote: Paradigm

I think there was some bad variance
with Queen High PGP

NO bad variance at all.
(depending on actual # of hands played- estimated)
Your thought is 100% incorrect.

Here is why.

If OP played say 90 hands, or expected to play about 90 hands in a session,
or any one player playing the next 90 hands,
he should have known,
because it can be easily calculated,
(simple binomial probability distribution)
that the probability to see exactly one (1) such Queen High PGP = 32.5680% (almost 1 in 3)
This happens to be the single highest outcome that can occur over many such 90 hand sessions.

What is the 2nd highest possible outcome?
Yep
two (2) Queen High PGP = 26.0283%
What? you say no way?

as a matter of fact
(and you can do the math yourself too and I am 100% certain Dan can also)
there is a 47.28303% chance of seeing 2 or MORE such Queen High PGP
over any 90 hand session.
What?
you say no way?

The OP should have expected that to happen,
But turned into a cry baby IMO because of his experience.
(right Dan? us dealers really have seen it all)

There is ONLY about a 20.1490% (1 in 5) chance of NOT seeing at least one Queen High PGP
over any 90 hands played.
Do the math yourself of seeing at least one (1)
hint: 1-x%

Quote: Paradigm

since he should have hit 87+ hands before getting a 2nd Q High Pai Gow (Q High occurs once every 58 hands and assuming it hits on hand 29 in the first set of 58 hands, so 29+58=87.......
Dan, am I thinking about that correctly?)

Whoa!
This is not correct.
This IS the Gambler's Fallacy
(I will leave this to ME for the explanation)

I can add:
How many hands do we have to *wait* or *see* until the 2nd Q High Pai Gow happens
while starting our 90 hand session?
This is the negative binomial probability distribution.

113.3613385 = mean =
#successes / probability of the event (2/0.017642699)
95 = median

probability distributions rule in games of chance where the events are
independent and identically distributed

IMO, learn what to expect from a series of
independent and identically distributed events
that way it takes the 'cry baby' syndrome right out of the picture.
Because you should have known better (key of G)

To cry or not to cry?
That is the question

Thanks 7Craps for the explanation........I was actually thinking that the OP likely didn't play 90 hands in 90 minutes, but more like 60 hands, maybe even less than that, given the slow pace of PGP even in EZ version of it. That is why I was thinking it was bad variance, seeing 2 Queen High Pai Gow's in 60 or less hands would be on the bad side of variance, wouldn't it?

I am an estimator when it comes to this kind of math.....a novice for sure.....but if your chances of seeing a Queen High Pai Gow is 1 in about 58 hands (I think Dan posted that somewhere), seeing 2 in 60 or less hands while not out of the park unusual, I bet has about a 18% chance of happening. Of course you can figure out that exactly :-).

Quote: Paradigm

seeing 2 in 60 or less hands while not out of the park unusual,
I bet has about a 18% chance of happening. Of course you can figure out that exactly :-).

Sure
many think that a 1 in 58 shot is quite rare more than one time
or a bad beat
(some are happy too when they hit the 45 to 1 payout)

seeing 2 or more:
over 60 hands: 0.2859560 or about 1 in 3.5
over 50 hands: 0.2205918 or about 1 in 4.5
over 40 hands: 0.1568617 or about 1 in 6.4
over 30 hands: 0.0978833 or about 1 in 10.2
over 20 hands: 0.0479274 or about 1 in 20.9

seeing 3 or more:
over 60 hands: 0.0897406 or about 1 in 11.1

It really should be no surprise when it happens

Wow....that is more often than I obviously thought. I really need to go back and re-take statistics.....thanks for the work :-)

Quote: 7craps

Sure
many think that a 1 in 58 shot is quite rare more than one time
or a bad beat
(some are happy too when they hit the 45 to 1 payout)

The standard payout on the Queen's Dragon bet is 50:1

Quote: 7craps

seeing 2 or more:
over 60 hands: 0.2859560 or about 1 in 3.5
over 50 hands: 0.2205918 or about 1 in 4.5
over 40 hands: 0.1568617 or about 1 in 6.4
over 30 hands: 0.0978833 or about 1 in 10.2
over 20 hands: 0.0479274 or about 1 in 20.9

seeing 3 or more:
over 60 hands: 0.0897406 or about 1 in 11.1

It really should be no surprise when it happens

I agree. It shouldn't.
Play for ages and it's a 1 in 58 average.
One one-hour session (35 hands) is typically 0 or 1 but not always.
I've seen four in 6 hands, and none in four sessions over four days, about 8 hours.

Quote: Paigowdan

The standard payout on the Queen's Dragon bet is 50:1



I agree. It shouldn't.
Play for ages and it's a 1 in 58 average.
One one-hour session (35 hands) is typically 0 or 1 but not always.
I've seen four in 6 hands, and none in four sessions over four days, about 8 hours.

I have seen it 3 times in 4 hands, and 250 hands without it happening one time.