Side bets affecting house edge of main game - e.g. UTH

I've come across a few side bets recently which have an adverse side effect on your bet on the main game. Strangely for UTH the HE for the side bet is better than the main game (depending on your definitions)! Just wondering what is fair way to quote the HE if there in a negative side effect.

For the trips bet it seems you have to stay in the basic game to receive payment. However there are some scenarios, Trips or Quads on board, where your kicker isn't good enough to play - so technically it costs you to stay in. However compare this with the 3-card Prime bet, where you don't have to stay in the main game, and the dealer places your cards under the bet and takes the other bets.

For House Money in Blackjack - this only applies in the UK - they have to give you your "winnings" back if the dealer gets Blackjack, thus you adopt US rules. Most common would be to double 65s or split 88 against a picture card - but this is at a cost to your base bet.

Many thanks
Charles Patrick


references:
Wizard's page:- https://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
UK rules page:- http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/pokerultimatetexasholdem.html
UK rules page:- http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/blackjackhousemoney.html
UK rules page:- http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/pokerprime.html

Quote: charliepatrick

For the trips bet it seems you have to stay in the basic game to receive payment.

I recall seeing a discussion about this on the forums and talking to a friend that's almost exclusively UTH and the verdict was: while there are places that say you have to stay in for the main game to collect on trips, that's NOT how it's supposed to work.

My friend said that the standard procedure to signify that you're not betting but because you're staying in for trips, is to tuck your hand under the trips wager.

Off-hand, I can't come up with any sidebets that aren't paid on a surrender (or equivalent) other than those that are directly influenced by the result of the main game. (Admittedly, it's only like 30 seconds of thought.)

I think the pairs bet on 3-card poker require you to stay in (or maybe it's just a house rule) - I'm guessing the logic is you should be playing unless you've cheated and seen the dealer's cards.

btw the UTH in Reading is electronic so while you get real cards there are no chips (except when you cashout) - it is neat as the computer knows all the cards and can works out wins and payouts. Sadly sometimes the card reader doesn't work when shuffling and kicks out a deck.

Quote: charliepatrick

I think the pairs bet on 3-card poker require you to stay in (or maybe it's just a house rule) - I'm guessing the logic is you should be playing unless you've cheated and seen the dealer's cards.

At my place the pair plus bet and the 6 card bonus are completely separate from the ante/raise. You can fold your hand against the dealer and still win either or both of the side bets separately.

ZCore13

AFAIK, Trips bet and the Pair+ side-bets are enforced if the Customer does not have a Main Wager. However, this is not a Jurisdictional/Gaming Law. This is a Game/House Rule. I suspect the House can make their own rule within the law.

IIRC, Roger Snow verified on this forum (June of this year?) that the SHFL installs of UTH rules say that the trips bet should be paid if relevant regardless of whether the player plays or folds (like when you have nothing but the board has trips or better); there was some confusion at my local game and they verified that was correct as well. If you fold, they should tuck your cards under your trips bet and clear your ante/blind before the dealer exposes their hand. I suppose local casinos can do what they want, but the HE on UTH is calculated using this rule. BTW, in UTH, always be alert for the chance that the flop plays (like 2 pair + Ace kicker, or flush on the board - more obvious - but still people fold thinking they have nothing, when they should risk the play for the push.)Same thing for 3CP re: folding - the PP is still in play most places. My local game and numerous others, but not all that I've played, allow people to bet the PP without even playing the ante/play. They just have to play blind.

^ Thanks for above - there's a great strategy chart (and I've done some analysis as well) confirming that there are some hands where playing the board is worth staying in on (typically when the dealer has less than 2/3 of beating it, as you're risking $1 to keep $2). This is why all other paying hands aren't an issue. For instance with a xxxx2 flush on board, even though the dealer has 8 outs, you would stay in. However with trips or quads if the kicker isn't too great, the dealer has too much chance of beating you (there's a slightly different break point if you have a bad kicker that beats the board as if you win you get a bonus) but sometimes you'd still want to fold.
PS Thanks for the "Roger Snow" contact - if I don't get a reply from Europe (as it's bank holiday week here) I'll send him an e-mail.