Prepaying Commission in Pai Gow
April 13th, 2010 at 5:18:20 PM
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I do not understand the prepay commission. If I understand it, you get to bet 105% to win 100%. For example, bet $105 to win $100. Why do they do that? Normally, you bet $100 to win $95. If you bet $105 and win, why don't they pay you 95% of $105 = $99.75? Why do they charge you less commission for betting 5% more? What am I missing?
April 13th, 2010 at 5:39:58 PM
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Quote: PaiGowFanI do not understand the prepay commission. If I understand it, you get to bet 105% to win 100%. For example, bet $105 to win $100. Why do they do that? Normally, you bet $100 to win $95. If you bet $105 and win, why don't they pay you 95% of $105 = $99.75? Why do they charge you less commission for betting 5% more? What am I missing?
Why? Probably because it's easier and they don't want to deal with quarters. This also will increase your variance slightly which I tend to believe goes in the house's advantage. Yes they cover less commission as a %, but in the end it doesn't mean too much to them and it lets players think they're getting something for free.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
April 13th, 2010 at 6:02:09 PM
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Not sure why it would increase your variance. Whatever my normal bet size is, I can lower it and then add back 5%. If my bet size is normally $21, I can lower it to $20 and then say I am prepaying a $1 commission and betting $21 to make $20 instead of betting $21 to get $19.95.
April 13th, 2010 at 6:03:04 PM
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The only way I can think of that prepaying works is if you pay win or lose.
April 13th, 2010 at 6:18:00 PM
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The way I think of the benefit of pre-paying the commission is that you don't have to pay the 5% commission on the extra 5% bet. In other words, betting $21 to win $20, is like betting $20 to win $19, plus $1 to win $1.
I've noticed most pai gow poker games don't allow pre-paying the commission, but pai gow tile games do.
I've noticed most pai gow poker games don't allow pre-paying the commission, but pai gow tile games do.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
April 13th, 2010 at 6:23:46 PM
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I agree with you on the advantage to the player, just not sure why the house would let you. If the house allows it, I should always but 21 to make 20. What's my downside?
April 13th, 2010 at 6:30:16 PM
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-deleated- the wizard was explaining as I was posting at the same time-
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
April 14th, 2010 at 6:38:06 AM
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Can anyone explain to me exactly how the commissioner prepay works? I can't believe it is simply that you put up 21 to make 20. For example, bet $105 to win $100. Right now, I bet $100 to win $95, $200 to win $190, $500 to win $475, etc. Why would the casino allow me the choice of betting $105 to win $100?
April 14th, 2010 at 10:43:41 AM
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its a pain in the ass having to pay out $95 slowing the game down. you have to use two different denominations, 3 greens and 4 reds, where if you bet $105, all they gotta do is pay you 4 greens or 1 black.
April 14th, 2010 at 10:52:27 AM
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Quote: rudeboyoiits a pain in the ass having to pay out $95 slowing the game down. you have to use two different denominations, 3 greens and 4 reds, where if you bet $105, all they gotta do is pay you 4 greens or 1 black.
So does that mean that they offer the prepay if you bet nice even numbers? For example, $105 to win $100 or $210 to win $200. I guess moving the game along is worth that to them. Although, if you have to ask them for change to put up the additional 5%, not so much. I try to have the $5 ready when I play for $100, so I was not slowing them down to begin with.
April 14th, 2010 at 11:32:04 AM
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If you bet $100, and win, you can THEN throw out the red chip and receive one black chip.Quote: rudeboyoiits a pain in the ass having to pay out $95 slowing the game down. you have to use two different denominations, 3 greens and 4 reds, where if you bet $105, all they gotta do is pay you 4 greens or 1 black.
That is NOT the same as pre-paying. That's just making change.
Either way, you've put out $105 and received $100.
The difference is, if you pre-pay, after receiving the $100, your bet will still be $105. Of course, if you pre pay, when you lose, you lose $105. Post-pay, you only lose $100.
Why do the casinos allow it? It's a numbers game. While mathematically it slightly reduces the house edge, it also increases your bet size, which is always good for the casino.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 14th, 2010 at 11:40:52 AM
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Around here (Minneapolis), the lowest denomination of chip is $.50. So commissions round down to the nearest $.50 and there is a prepayment-like effect that is possible up to a $105 bet (actual prepayment is not allowed, so a bet of $210 is paid $199.50).
I tried the same thing at Belterra in Indiana, not realizing that they have $.25 tokens. I thought the dealer was going to tear off my face as he counted out my $99.75 winnings. After that, I just bet $100/hand.
I've never played in a casino that allowed actual prepayment of commission. Is that common in LV and AC?
I tried the same thing at Belterra in Indiana, not realizing that they have $.25 tokens. I thought the dealer was going to tear off my face as he counted out my $99.75 winnings. After that, I just bet $100/hand.
I've never played in a casino that allowed actual prepayment of commission. Is that common in LV and AC?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
April 14th, 2010 at 12:05:50 PM
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I've done it, but I forget where (either AC or CT). Not all places allow it.
FYI: They don't have 25¢ or 50¢ chips. They use quarters - which is why my wife calls it "That stupid game with the quarters."
Except for dealer toke bets, all bets must be in $5 increments.
FYI: They don't have 25¢ or 50¢ chips. They use quarters - which is why my wife calls it "That stupid game with the quarters."
Except for dealer toke bets, all bets must be in $5 increments.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 14th, 2010 at 12:17:26 PM
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I've never seen it before (I have only been in AC recently). However, it still does not make sense to me from the house perspective.
Suppose I generally bet $100. If I win, they pay me $95 and if I lose, I lose my bet ($100). Are you saying that if I bet $105, if I lose, I still lose my bet, but if I win, they throw me the quarter and pay me $100 instead of $99.75? I'm surprised.
All those years that I so nicely put up the nickel to make it easier for them and if I had bet the extra nickel I would have gotten lightly better odds.
Suppose I generally bet $100. If I win, they pay me $95 and if I lose, I lose my bet ($100). Are you saying that if I bet $105, if I lose, I still lose my bet, but if I win, they throw me the quarter and pay me $100 instead of $99.75? I'm surprised.
All those years that I so nicely put up the nickel to make it easier for them and if I had bet the extra nickel I would have gotten lightly better odds.
April 14th, 2010 at 12:31:59 PM
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Yeah, I think you got it.
Remember, if you don't pre-pay, it's still nice to throw the change up after the win to keep things simple.
And not all casinos allow it, so ask - particularly if you're betting $105. A pre-pay bet of $21 ot $126 is more obvious than $105.
And they aren't "Throwing you the quarter." You merely keep the quarter you otherwise would have had to pay.
Personally, I don't like to pre-pay for only one reason. If I have a monster hand, I like to put the commission up there immediatly after setting my hand, before the dealer turns her cards over. I often get a reaction.
Remember, if you don't pre-pay, it's still nice to throw the change up after the win to keep things simple.
And not all casinos allow it, so ask - particularly if you're betting $105. A pre-pay bet of $21 ot $126 is more obvious than $105.
And they aren't "Throwing you the quarter." You merely keep the quarter you otherwise would have had to pay.
Personally, I don't like to pre-pay for only one reason. If I have a monster hand, I like to put the commission up there immediatly after setting my hand, before the dealer turns her cards over. I often get a reaction.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 14th, 2010 at 12:53:27 PM
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Does this happen at any Bacarrat game on the Banker bet payout?
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 14th, 2010 at 1:01:19 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearPersonally, I don't like to pre-pay for only one reason. If I have a monster hand, I like to put the commission up there immediatly after setting my hand, before the dealer turns her cards over. I often get a reaction.
I like the way you think... That goes with the reaction I get for just sitting down at the table. The first question I get asked is, "where did you learn to play?"
April 14th, 2010 at 1:39:12 PM
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Yeah, I expect to get that when I sit down to PG Tiles for the very first time this coming weekend. (Thanks Wiz!)Quote: PaiGowFanI like the way you think... That goes with the reaction I get for just sitting down at the table. The first question I get asked is, "where did you learn to play?"
For the record, I was talking about PG Poker.
But the pre-pay thing works the same way on both - if allowed. Similarly, if it's allowed on Bac Banker, I imagine it too would work the same way.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 21st, 2010 at 9:02:49 PM
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Quote: WizardThe way I think of the benefit of pre-paying the commission is that you don't have to pay the 5% commission on the extra 5% bet. In other words, betting $21 to win $20, is like betting $20 to win $19, plus $1 to win $1.
I've noticed most pai gow poker games don't allow pre-paying the commission, but pai gow tile games do.
Having not tried prepaid commission yet (taking baby steps here...), does this mean that the pre-paid commission is actually an increased bet? Or can you offer to pre-pay commission and, if the bet doesn't win, you keep the unspent commission? I'm about ready for my next trip and would like to understand this.
April 21st, 2010 at 11:20:38 PM
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The prepaid commission is an increased bet, you lose the entire amount if you lose.
I've found most places I've played in Vegas, Wynncore, Palazzo, Aria and Planet Hollywood have let me prepay commission.
At my local casino they actually don't but they have a commission "bet" you make which actually ends up working the same way sort of.
I've found most places I've played in Vegas, Wynncore, Palazzo, Aria and Planet Hollywood have let me prepay commission.
At my local casino they actually don't but they have a commission "bet" you make which actually ends up working the same way sort of.
April 22nd, 2010 at 2:42:55 AM
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Quote: alexanboThe prepaid commission is an increased bet, you lose the entire amount if you lose.
I've found most places I've played in Vegas, Wynncore, Palazzo, Aria and Planet Hollywood have let me prepay commission.
At my local casino they actually don't but they have a commission "bet" you make which actually ends up working the same way sort of.
Still don't get this. If I'm willing to bet $100 to win $95, I know I'm willing to bet $105 to win $100. Why would the casino let me do it?
April 22nd, 2010 at 5:03:48 AM
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Quote: PaiGowFanStill don't get this. If I'm willing to bet $100 to win $95, I know I'm willing to bet $105 to win $100. Why would the casino let me do it?
Simple.
1 - It keeps the action going a little faster by not having to make change or wait for the player to put up the commission.
2 - Mathematically, the commission is then 4.76%.
3 - It increases the bet size by 5%.
The house sacrifices 0.24% in commission, but gains a 5% increase in bets and more hands per hour.
It's the rule of large numbers vs the rule of small numbers.
If you're the house, playing several million hands, the increased bets and faster game is huge.
If you're a player, playing a couple dozen hands, or even hundreds of hands, that 0.24% is huge.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 22nd, 2010 at 5:33:07 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBear1 - It keeps the action going a little faster by not having to make change or wait for the player to put up the commission.
2 - Mathematically, the commission is then 4.76%.
3 - It increases the bet size by 5%.
I understand the math. If you can bet 21 to make 20, that's better than 20 to make 19. Hence the 4.76% vs. 5%. My point is whether you are betting $10 to win $9.50 or $100 to win $95, I can not believe you care about betting the extra 5%. As for the house and the increased bet size, they are still getting 5% on the original bet, but are now giving even money on the additional 5%. i.e., 20 to make 19 plus 1 to make 1 equals 21 to make 19. I do not think the house cares about the increased bet size at the fair odds. Now if the player never banks, then the house picks up a little advantage on the even money piece.
As for the increased speed, maybe there is something to that. I generally have change and make it easy for them. That is, if I bet $100, I have a $5 chip handy to make change. They will not gain speed with my action. However, I will happily put the $5 chip up in advance and bet the $105 top make $100.
