No Commission Pai Gow now in Atlantic City
Quote: hook3670Bally's now has one table of no commission Pai Gow. It was just installed in early April. I think that is the first, that I have seen, on the east coast.
do you mean pai gow poker? borgata in ac has a few "ez pai gow poker" tables in addition to its much busier fortune pai gow poker tables. the ez tables are usually empty when i play, and i avoid them because the queen-high push comes too often, and i like to bank every chance i get. banking is not allowed on no-comission pai gow poker.
Quote: hook3670Sorry I have not been to the Borgata in a while. I will check again, I think it was called no commission pai gow but it had the same rules as ez pai gow. They had a big board that kept track of the hands since a queen high and an envy bonus had come along, and when I left it was some long time between queen high hands. Now the bonus has totally different payouts than the fortune one.
It is EZ Pai Gow. Some properties use a different bonus paytable, though most use the standard 8,000:1 paytable. In New Jersey, different paytables are often selected.
Quote: sodawaterdo you mean pai gow poker? borgata in ac has a few "ez pai gow poker" tables in addition to its much busier fortune pai gow poker tables. the ez tables are usually empty when i play, and i avoid them because the queen-high push comes too often, and i like to bank every chance i get. banking is not allowed on no-comission pai gow poker.
Correct, Banking is optional on EZ Pai Gow, and most operators eliminate banking when installing EZ Pai Gow tables.
However, the majority brand of the Pai Gow games at the Borgata is EZ Pai Gow, and not Fortune, and it is precisely because EZ Pai Gow does indeed get more action. A casino operator orders more of a table because it is busier than the other tables, not because it is less busy. The order books don't lie.
As for the queen high occuring too often, it occurs once in 58 hands, - or in about 1.7% of the rounds dealt.
NO other casino game has a rarer non-qualifier than EZ Pai Gow.
By comparison, in regular commission Pai Gow, a player gets shorted on 100% of the hands he manages to win, which is about one in three hands, - not one in 58.
I would say that paying commission "comes too often" at 1 in 3 hands, and for this reason big money players in particular prefer EZ Pai Gow.
Quote: Paigowdanand for this reason big money players in particular prefer EZ Pai Gow.
i understand you are passionate about the game you invented, but this is a really dubious statement. I spend a lot of time in borgata's asian pit, and i have never seen anyone bet more than $100 a hand at the ez pgp table. meanwhile, I was playing fortune pai gow poker on tuesday night, and there were 2 players betting $400 a hand, and banking every other hand. the only ez pai gow table that was open for those 6 hours was dead the entire time.
if you had "big money" to bet, wouldn't you choose a variation of the game (fortune) whose house edge is significantly lower than the other option? I know I would. Dan, could you honestly say that if you wanted to bet $400 a hand on pai gow poker, you would choose the no-banking version of your game, over fortune PGP, where you would save hundreds of dollars in house edge over the course of a full session?
Most people who have enough money to bet big will at least pick the table where the house edge is eating them up less.
Quote: Paigowdan
I would say that paying commission "comes too often" at 1 in 3 hands, and for this reason big money players in particular prefer EZ Pai Gow.
yeah, the problem with this reasoning is that when you win at fortune pai gow poker, you are "shorted" 5 percent of your win. But when the dealer gets the queen high, though it might happen a lot less, you are "shorted' 100 percent of your win.
Do you really think you can fool players into thinking that you're giving away the commission for free? Or for less than the actual value of the commission?
EZPGP has a higher house edge than the fortune game, and that is all you need to know about it.
Quote: sodawateryeah, the problem with this reasoning is that when you win at fortune pai gow poker, you are "shorted" 5 percent of your win. But when the dealer gets the queen high, though it might happen a lot less, you are "shorted' 100 percent of your win.
No, but you can look at it as being "shorted" 72% of your win on the 58th hand, - as many hands would have pushed in any case: you get a flush with a 9-3 as the low hand, or a straight with no top, or a King-high or Ace-high Pai Gow with a 10 or 9 on top; - these hands would have pushed anyway, so the push is immaterial in many hands, and so it is NOT 100% every 58 hands. It's even less, and rarer.
Quote: sodawaterDo you really think you can fool players into thinking that you're giving away the commission for free? Or for less than the actual value of the commission?
Well, the fact of the matter IS that EZ Pai Gow has a LOWER house edge than commission-based Pai Gow, so there is no fooling. See the correct math below.
Quote: sodatwaterEZPGP has a higher house edge than the fortune game, and that is all you need to know about it.
No it doesn't, so you need to get your math straight before posting it up...
According to Michael Shackleford's Gaming math site 'wizard of odds', EZ Pai Gow has a 2.469% house edge, which is LOWER than Fortune's commission-based Pai Gow, at 2.73% house edge.
Now, before you claim as facts the math about a game, - get your facts and math straight - and do some research right here at these Wizard-associated sites.
Now, if you wanted to post "I think EZ Pai Gow is crappy because I just don't like Dan," - well, then THAT I would see and respect. I believe that to be the case. If it's something Personal against me, then fine, but don't fabricate math lies about my games.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, but you can look at it as being "shorted" 72% of your win on the 58th hand, - as many hands would have pushed in any case: you get a flush with a 9-3 as the low hand, or a straight with no top, or a King-high or Ace-high Pai Gow with a 10 or 9 on top; - these hands would have pushed anyway, so the push is immaterial in many hands, and so it is NOT 100% every 58 hands. It's even less, and rarer.
Well, the fact of the matter IS that EZ Pai Gow has a LOWER house edge than commission-based Pai Gow, so there is no fooling. See the correct math below.
No it doesn't, so you need to get your math straight before posting it up...
According to Michael Shackleford's Gaming math site 'wizard of odds', EZ Pai Gow has a 2.469% house edge, which is LOWER than Fortune's commission-based Pai Gow, at 2.73% house edge.
Now, before you claim as facts the math about a game, - get your facts and math straight - and do some research right here at these Wizard-associated sites.
Now, if you wanted to post "I think EZ Pai Gow is crappy because I just don't like Dan," - well, then THAT I would see and respect. I believe that to be the case. If it's something Personal against me, then fine, but don't fabricate math lies about my games.
Wow -- talk about cherry picking numbers out of context, Dan. Heads-up fortune pai gow poker has a house edge of 1.46 percent, assuming the player takes his turn banking. I would think it's a fair assumption that anyone betting "big money" would take advantage of this extremely advantageous option. It's akin to taking the free odds at craps.
Now, I am not the wizard himself, but even I can see that 1.46% is less than 2.47%. In fact, it's a lot less, especially when playing "BIG MONEY," like you said.
Let's assume your BIG MONEY player is betting $400 a hand and plays a 4-hour session and banks when he can. Let's be generous to your cause and assume both games get out 40 hands per hour, although you yourself say EZ PGP has more hands per hour than fortune.
The fortune pai gow player has an expected loss of $915.20.
The EZ pai gow player has an expected loss of $1580.80
That's a difference of $665.60. Pretty significant. That's real money that you can spend.
So why would any big money player choose EZ PG instead of fortune PG? Please tell me.
Quote: sodawaterWow -- talk about cherry picking numbers out of context, Dan. Heads-up fortune pai gow poker has a house edge of 1.46 percent, assuming the player takes his turn banking.
Assuming what - "Assuming the player takes turn banking" you say.
for the record:
1. EZ Pai Gow doesn't forbid banking - in fact MANY installations allow banking on EZ Pai Gow.
2. It's that Casino operators - and NOT DEQ or EZ Pai Gow - are eliminating the player banking, and are using the switch-over to EZ Pai Gow to implement that [excellent] policy change in.
3. EZ Pai Gow does NOT charge commissions during a banking round, to the winning players who play against a banker; ONLY the BANKER is charged commissions during a banker round, and it is rounded up to the nearest dollar. Furthermore, the BANKER does NOT get the queen-high push or "save on a bad hand' that the house dealer gets, as it is a house-edge mechanism, and not a player edge mechanism. We were even thinking of giving the Queen-high push for the players who are playing against a banking player, so as long as it is NOT for the banker. Banker gets a queen-high, he certainly loses and pays the players, - who then pay NO commission on their own wins during a banking round!
4. On installations where player banking IS allowed on EZ Pai Gow - it has the LOWEST house edge - and the highest possible player return - of all Pai Gow poker games.
5. Casino Operators are in the process of eliminating player banking on Pai Gow Poker in general on new vendor installs and switches, and use EZ Pai Gow (which is a faster Pai Gow game), as the [great] excuse to eliminate Player banking "while they are at it anyway."
So YOUR gripe is not about EZ Pai Gow, (or ANY brand of Pai Gow poker for that matter) - as it is more about the gradual elimination of Player Banking in the casino pit, and not about my game. But I admit, blasting EZ Pai Gow is a great opportunity to take a shot at a game produced by someone you're not fond of at this board - because I suggest to casino operators - as a "Best Practices Implenetation" - to LOSE player banking for the best performance and operator profit on this game.
I also recommend discontinuing player banking on Fortune, and on Emperor's challenge (also an excellent Pai Gow offering), Imperial Pai Gow, Maccarena Pai Gow, Wazoo Pai Gow, as well as on the Happy Lucky Golden Dragon of the Emperor's Dynasty Pai Gow poker. In other words: Lose player banking in the freakin' casino pit!
Quote: sodawaterI would think it's a fair assumption that anyone betting "big money" would take advantage of this extremely advantageous option. It's akin to taking the free odds at craps.
No, this is materially incorrect. Pai Gow Players may NOT bank for more than the value of their last bet made on their previous non-banking round, so they CANNOT bet $5 a hand before banking, then bet $500 or $1,000 a hand as big money - when banking on their turn to bank.
Quote: sodawaterNow, I am not the wizard himself, but even I can see that 1.46% is less than 2.47%. In fact, it's a lot less, especially when playing "BIG MONEY," like you said.
Yes - but that 1.46% is not EZ Pai Gow or Fortune Pai Gow related, or any-brand related, for that matter. It is the policies and the "Internal controls" of the individual casino or operator to allow banking at 1.46%
Quote: sodawaterLet's assume your BIG MONEY player is betting $400 a hand and plays a 4-hour session and banks when he can.
Then he'd be banking one in seven hands on a full table, paying a HIGHER commission
Let's be generous to your cause and assume both games get out 40 hands per hour, although you yourself say EZ PGP has more hands per hour than fortune.
The fortune pai gow player has an expected loss of $915.20.
The EZ pai gow player has an expected loss of $1580.80
That's a difference of $665.60. Pretty significant. That's real money that you can spend.
So why would any big money player choose EZ PG instead of fortune PG? Please tell me.
Because:
1. You have to play a LOT of non-banking hands to get the chance to bank, so you might as well play at the lowest house edge on the BASIC non-banked game while you are waiting for your turn to bank.
2. The industry is in the active process of eliminating casino pit banking games, as an Internal Control adaptation, and as general policy for the near future. You want to bank, there's the poker room near the Buffet.
3. In addition, I work as a table games design and development manager for a very fine distributor of casino table games products. We distribute casino table game products to casino operators such as the excellent "High Card flush," the wildly popular "21+3" side bet for Blackjack, and the like. I actively recommend, as part of the game's design and usage in the casino pit, that there is simply NO troublesome player banking to confuse dealers into error, to destroy the house edge, and to bog the game down hard, which is the only real effects on us all in the casino pit, player and casino worker alike.
4. As a general "from now on policy" on any new Pai Gow or Pai Gow game variant that I've seen developed by others, generally a "no banking, no dragon hand" stipulation is written right into the game's procedural rules, so that the game cannot be offered with player banking or dragon hands as a game approval requirement, and not just a casino operator internal control for the casino to handle. This is the way of the future - casino pit games have to light, fast and profitable for casino operators. That means no player banking, no dragon hands, and no lighting of incense and praying to the your God allowed, and what have you. Just straight up house-banked action.
Quote: Paigowdan
Because:
1. You have to play a LOT of non-banking hands to get the chance to bank, so you might as well play at the lowest house edge on the BASIC non-banked game while you are waiting for your turn to bank.
Lol... well in every game i've played in, "a LOT" is almost always exactly one hand. And... in EZ pai gow, in every installation i've ever seen, your turn to bank never comes. so it's pretty moot.
Banking is the single-most important thing in pai gow poker. It's way more important than strategy. Your game was designed to discontinue player-banking, despite this "option" to allow it, which I have never seen.
By the way, I have no personal animus toward you. i don't know where you got that idea from... I am simply stating that as a gaming consumer, it frustrates me to have to walk past 2 dead EZ PG games to wait for a seat on two fortune PG games... and I am trying to explain why it might be that any educated gambler would prefer the classic game.
Quote: sodawaterLol... well in every game i've played in, "a LOT" is almost always exactly one hand. And... in EZ pai gow, in every installation i've ever seen, your turn to bank never comes. so it's pretty moot.
You're right. There is only ONE EZ Pai Gow install - out of a hundred - that still allows banking.
Quote: sodawaterBanking is the single-most important thing in pai gow poker. It's way more important than strategy. Your game was designed to discontinue player-banking, despite this "option" to allow it, which I have never seen.
Player banking is only important for you, Sodawater - and so you really should be playing player-banked Pai Gow Poker in Card rooms, which is GREAT action - instead of putting demands on casino operators and their pit operations as to how THEY should run their pits. Your business won't be missed by anyone in the casino pit, although you may be a better fit in a player-banked card room.
This is true because I design the casino games that both card rooms and casino operators actually install, and I HAVE to consider our casino operators as customers first, less so the card rooms. They have to make their money just to pay the light bill and the dealers if no rake is involved. I would never design and recommend a player-banked card room game for a casino pit operation, just as I would never design and recommend a higher-edge casino-banked game for a card room.
They are two very different beasts - and your expectations and demands that a low-edge/no-edge version of Pai Gow Poker be oprational in commercial casino pits, - and at your convenience - is not going to happen. There is a "no-edge/low-edge" version of EZ Pai Gow that got no sales for card rooms, because they can just bank the public domain version (with no house edge mechanism but an hourly rake), and use public domain side bets of a gentle nature to effect the game with no license fees.
Quote: sodawaterBy the way, I have no personal animus toward you. i don't know where you got that idea from...
good to hear that.
I got the idea from the derogatory comments, and the unflatteringly incorrect math you posted on my game as fact on a public forum.
For the record, the game is doing great, as it had been for years, and it struck me as from "out of left field, and just factually untrue."
If you DO have something against me, then just tell me that I am fat, and that I have dingle-berries in my belly-button.
I will say that I admit I that I do need to hit the gym, but I shower every morning thoroughly, and that the dingle-berry accusation is a mathematically false statement on your part!
Quote: sodawaterI am simply stating that as a gaming consumer, it frustrates me to have to walk past 2 dead EZ PG games to wait for a seat on two fortune PG games... and I am trying to explain why it might be that any educated gambler would prefer the classic game.
It's the opposite at most casinos - where banking is not a major factor.
However, some casinos have "banking crew players" who hit Bankable tables, - and apparently you guys have the same schedule.
I will say that player banking IS causing at least a 2%-3% and even greater lower house edge on Fortune tables, (along with the lower-end progressive payouts also being paid out of the table rack), - and so I designed the game to be fairer to the player (lower house edge, and assuming no banking), and to PAY the operator his due table hold for offering the game.
I'm employed in this business because I REALLY think about the casino effects of our table game designs. Nay-sayers ignored, so as long as the nay-sayer is NOT an operator. Understand my job and position.
The only reason to install EZ PG over fortune is greed on the part of the operator. And that's fine. Your customer is the casino, not the player, so I understand why you cater to them.
But I am a player, and the trend, as I see it, is greed. Blackjack wasn't broken, but along game 6 to 5. PG poker was not broken, but along came EZ PG with no player banking. So, I think I have a right to express my frustration about that.
And please do not say I posted incorrect math. You are well aware that the house edge for fortune PG poker is much lower than EZ PG poker, due to the banking option. Yes, it's an option, but so are splitting and doubling down in blackjack, and taking the free odds in craps. They're all part of the game, and it's appropriate to include those options in calculating the house edge.
Quote: Paigowdan
Player banking is only important for you, Sodawater
Dan,
Like you. Love your game. Hate this statement. Seriously...come on.
Ross
Quote: rdw4potusDan,
Like you. Love your game....
Ross
Not meaning to get all Brokeback Mount over here on you, but wow, I really appreciate it...
That's what counts - the GAME being seen and appreciated, - I do not matter myself, really....
XXXOOOXOXOXO
In a very straight way, bro, really.
:)
Thank you, it is a great game, and yeah, I appreciate the support!
This all is like hearing: "Ignore the man who said that your daughter is ugly - I think your kid is FINE, AWESOME. (Now I, Dan, can be ugly, - and I am fine with that. Just as long as I am not broke, and my kid is doing well...)
Dan.
Sorry, but I will trade banking for commission every time. Why? Everyone benefits from no commission. The Player gets more play and less headache, and no worry the dealer cheated them on commission. The house get more hands per hr, even at a lower house edge, they are happy. The Dealer has no interruptions (included banking) and can deal the game free of the clutter and mess banking dealing producer currently are.
Keep your banking; I will take EZ Pai Gow Poker NO Commission every time.
Quote: clubflush
Sorry, but I will trade banking for commission every time.
Keep your banking; I will take EZ Pai Gow Poker NO Commission every time.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but the mathematical fact of the game is that banking is much more important. And you're not getting your commission back for free -- you are paying for that in the form of a 100% commission on winning hands when the dealer has Q-high.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI know of one place that allows the player and dealer to alternate banking instead of the opportunity going from player to player around the table as long as noone else wants to bank. So theoretically even on a full table, you can bank every other hand so long as nobody else wants it. I don't know if it helps much, but it is out there.
Yes, this is standard everywhere I have played. The other players "pass" the bank back to the house.
Also, if more than one player is taking their turn to bank, the other players can sit out. Normally what happens is that the house banks against A, B, and C. Then A banks against the house, and B and C sit out. Then B banks, and A and C sit out. Then C banks, and A and B sit out. Then the house banks, and A, B, and C all play. Result? Each player is banking 1 hand and playing 1 hand against the house. House edge: 1.46 percent.
Quote: clubflushthe clumsy, slow, and frustrating commission in pai gow poker.
What kind of dealers do you have who are slow to calculate or pay winning wagers minus a 5 percent commission? It's a dollar for every $20, and a quarter for every red chip. It can be done almost in one's sleep. Most of the players who win a hand put their commission payment up before the dealer even gets to them. It's completely seamless.
This Lie that I pay 100% commission is just wrong. I do not pay on every win that lead up to the dealer getting a queen high pai gow.
The fact of the matter is I seldom push; the queen high is so rare in the dealer hand that many nights when I play I don’t even see a queen high pai gow in the dealer’s hand. I know on avg I will pay 18 cents on every 5$ win but when I color up with a 100$ win and spent 2 hrs with no queen high pai gow push It sure feels like commission free to me!
We can all have an opinion about EZPGP, but the fact of the matter is something clearly was broken with PGP. How else would you explain a third proprietary version of the game coming to market way later than Fortune & Emperor's and taking market share. I guess somebody out there must like the game!
Quote: sodawaterYes, this is standard everywhere I have played. The other players "pass" the bank back to the house.
Also, if more than one player is taking their turn to bank, the other players can sit out. Normally what happens is that the house banks against A, B, and C. Then A banks against the house, and B and C sit out. Then B banks, and A and C sit out. Then C banks, and A and B sit out. Then the house banks, and A, B, and C all play. Result? Each player is banking 1 hand and playing 1 hand against the house. House edge: 1.46 percent.
Are players allowed to bank when they didn't play the previous hand?
Quote: clubflushWow, I am amazed how many times you are in error in this thread. If there 100% commission, how is the house edge lower? Commission based games take more monies from you on every win you scratch out. When you average it out, EZ Pai Gow is a better deal. In a commission game, I pay 5% on every win that’s .25 on every 5$ bet won. In EZ Pai Gow the math is simple. It only cost me 18 cents per winning 5$ bet.
This Lie that I pay 100% commission is just wrong. I do not pay on every win that lead up to the dealer getting a queen high pai gow.
The fact of the matter is I seldom push; the queen high is so rare in the dealer hand that many nights when I play I don’t even see a queen high pai gow in the dealer’s hand. I know on avg I will pay 18 cents on every 5$ win but when I color up with a 100$ win and spent 2 hrs with no queen high pai gow push It sure feels like commission free to me!
1. You pay "100% commission" in EZ PG when you win and the dealer has queen high -- as in, you do not get paid.
2. The house edge in EZ PG is only lower than fortune PG if the player does not bank. As banking is the best option in the game of pai gow poker, it seems ridiculous to compare house edges without this option. It would be like calculating the edge for blackjack without allowing the player to double down or split.
3. No matter what your perception of the effects of no commission, not banking, and pushing on queen high are, the numbers are the numbers. You can see them on the Wizard's own page. Playing fortune pai gow and banking when it's your turn has a house edge of 1.46 percent. This is much lower than the house edge of EZ PG poker.
Quote: bwAre players allowed to bank when they didn't play the previous hand?
Players are allowed to bank up to the amount they bet against the house in the most-recent house-banked hand.
Quote: Paradigm
We can all have an opinion about EZPGP, but the fact of the matter is something clearly was broken with PGP. How else would you explain a third proprietary version of the game coming to market way later than Fortune & Emperor's and taking market share. I guess somebody out there must like the game!
Yes, there is no doubt casinos like games that take more money from the player. It doesn't mean public-domain PG was broken in some way. Was blackjack broken before 6 to 5 came along? No. The simple reason is, as you said -- most of the player base is too uneducated to understand how bad the new version of the game is.
This is pennywise and pound-foolish on the part of the operator. Better to give the players a fairer gamble and they will come back to you with the entertainment dollars.
Quote: sodawaterWhat kind of dealers do you have who are slow to calculate or pay winning wagers minus a 5 percent commission? It's a dollar for every $20, and a quarter for every red chip.
I've dealt Pai Gow Poker as my main game, along with craps, for years with Stations.
You've got players betting $87 a hand on commission based Pai Gow just to take shots, and yes - it slows the hell out of the game. On a Sunny day the commission load kills a game, and most striking - the commission is THE most in-your-face house edge a player can ever see.
The majority of the game's slow-down is the commission itself, - it is the single LARGEST cause of dealer errors and slowdowns on the game itself - and forget about a break-in or experienced dealer having to pay commission of odd ball bets like $112 from a shot-taker.
this is aside from "Banking player shots" and dragon-hand slowdowns, - and the rest of the crap a casino opertor has to deal with on this game, which should thankfully done away with.
This is also aside from the fact that, (due to the freaking commission), players cannot reasonably bet progressive-betting amounts that are not in multiples of $20 for an even $1 commission, or in even multiples of $5, or a 25 cent commission - and when casino dealers shouldn't even be dealing with f**king silver quarters on a commercial casino game without added breakage!
On EZ Pai Gow, if you want to bet $9, or $14, or $37, or $1,030 - you get full even money pay to the dollar when YOUR progression bet indiicates that you bet that. NO problem for the dealer here!
And Just dealing with numerous 25 cent pieces on a straight up $5 casino game also slows down the crap out of the game, - and where hands per hour is very crucial for a small house;
Chunking out silver dollar coins and 25 pieces turns a cheap $5 Pai Gow game into an absolute casino slow-down joke. The FIRST casino to install of EZ in the state of Nevada - after the $1,000 dollar house of the Barona Casino in San Diego, that is - was at the Fiesta Henderson, a $5 house, and a Stations Property.
Installed on March 29th, 2010, the Director of table games there at the time, Teresa Gonzales, said "Thank GOD we can now get 40 hands out per hour on Pai Gow Poker - without turning this joint into a freakin' Laundromat! - 25 cent pieces belong on the tumble dry setting - and not in a casino! This game is staying!"
Let me say this: both casino dealers as well as casino operators are supposed to pump out hands with the least amount of "fuss or muss," - and that especially concerns waste in $5 casino - as well as bothering $500 players to throw in a $25 green quarter, or really big $10,000 players to throw back in $500 a hand in commissions.
ANYTHING that needlessly bogs down a casino dealer or a casino house - to include "on the spot commission calculations" on oddball amounts, is a huge negative;
ALL commission charges just cost extra to players, and bog down the casino and drive up costs, - and everyine loses on this.
- for high-dollar houses, big money players do NOT like AT ALL paying commissions - per hand - a $500 commission charge on each hand won when playing $10K - or $25 per thousand - so for really high dollar houses - Like the Venetian here in Las Vegas, and the Borona in San Diego, and the Borgata in Atlantic City - EZ Pai Gow is THE game of choice. What soda-swater says here matters little, I am sorry. Let him either run a casino, or design a game that gets out into the real casinos, enough said here.
- for tiny $5 houses, comission-free works better and faster, - as they do not like acting like inner-city laudromats, dispensing 25 cent pieces in a casino operation when the freaking slot operations have long since abandoned quarters for a machine basis.
Quote: sodawaterIt can be done almost in one's sleep. Most of the players who win a hand put their commission payment up before the dealer even gets to them. It's completely seamless.
No it isn't, and that's the point - aside from having a significantly higher house edge against the player.
A commission charge, on a slower game, with a higher edge against the player, - helps neither the player OR casino operator. And it will be put to its well-deserved repose very shortly, within two years.
R.I.P. for that, fine riddance.
Call me when you've actually dealt and worked in bona-fide a casino operation in Las Vegas or Atlantic City for a shit-load of years, and when you get YOUR game design out into real casinos, and then when a gaming industry distributor hires you to design their next games.
- and then you can tell us what makes a casino game work better - in the real world.
And not taking shots and talking skag on a forum.
Quote: Paigowdan
You've got players betting $87 a hand on commission based Pai Gow just to take shots, and yes - it slows the hell out of the game
There's an extremely simple solution to this "problem." I am sure you know about it, as one of your biggest customers already uses it on their Fortune PG poker, PG tiles, and Minibacc games -- only bets in multiples of $5 are allowed. But I am sure you already know that is the rule at the Borgata and just forgot to mention it.
I would also like to add that even if a player was allowed to bet $87 -- wow, is that so hard? Just round up to $90. $4.50. Have you ever seen a crap dealer freeze up when someone wins a $25 odds bet on the 5? Do blackjack dealers call over the floor if someone bets $45 and hits a natural? It's not that hard. I think the PG poker dealers can be trained to handle a 5% commission.
In fact, craps dealers have to know 5% commission FOR ANY NUMBER up to the table maximum, due to the buy bets, IN ADDITION to every other one of the dozens of different payouts on the felt. I don't think the PG poker dealers had it so hard you had to invent a new game.
Quote: Paigowdan
Call me when you've actually dealt and worked in bona-fide a casino operation in Las Vegas or Atlantic City for a shit-load of years, and when you get YOUR game design out into real casinos, and then when a gaming industry distributor hires you to design their next games.
Never mind the fact that I am not in the game-design business, but I wouldn't want to design a game that takes a classic game and then just adds 69% to the combined house edge (1.46% to 2.47%) -- that just seems too greedy for my tastes.
Second, let's be clear here. You did not invent an entire new game concept. You took a game in the public domain, and changed one rule on it, and then you added a side bet with a paytable that is similar to existing side bets.
Congratulations on your success, but I would argue that it comes at the expense of the already-shriveling pai-gow-poker player base. And I don't need to work in a casino for "shit-load of years" to understand that 1.46 is a smaller number than 2.47.
Quote: sodawaterThere's an extremely simple solution to this "problem." I am sure you know about it, as one of your biggest customers already uses it on their Fortune PG poker, PG tiles, and Minibacc games -- only bets in multiples of $5 are allowed. But I am sure you already know that is the rule at the Borgata and just forgot to mention it.
Nope. 100% B.S. on that.
Demanding $5 increments, - or ANY dollar amount demand increments or rules - just annoy players, as they impose new rules and restrictions on them and th casino house, - and just bog down casinos with new rules and restrictions.
They also cause more dealer errors, and more table disputes, simply because people DO bet them, and expect the casino to do the math on the fly on a live table. EZ pai Gow solves these real-world problems with easy even-money pays 100% of the time. Look:....
A dealer doesn't care WHAT a player has a right to bet, - so as long it can be bet easily, and PAID easily. "Any amount in action plays" - is the rule at all casinos! Can't figure it out? - Get a job a Pizza Hut!
If a dealer can't book or pay $117 on a $117 bet won with a 5% commission on Pai Gow Poker, (it pays $111) or $387 on a $387 bet on a bet with a 4% commission on the Baccarat banker bet (it pays $371 after breakage), - then how does he book a $117 "Horn High Yo" on stick while on a jammed up dice game, or a $387 Horn-High Ace-Deuce, - and calculate the low side hit? Or paying off an $89 bet - split or boxed, or street on Roulette?
Now on Pai Gow, these bets cause real problems - because people walk into casinos and do bet them, as they do on dice and Roulette.
EZ Pai Gow was designed to give 100% flat even money pays on ALL player wins, 100% pushes on all ties, and take 100%, as all game should ideally, - for the sake of casino operations and having dealers employable. Bet any amount - you get paid the same amount, and in the same chip color.
Easy for the dealer, and for the house.
Casinos are buying a LOT of the new "Bubble Crap Game" automated dice machines, because they don't make dealing mistakes. Bet $13.87 on a horn-high-12, and you get paid instantly and correctly to the penny - in a flash. They are also buying a lot of EZ Pai Gow tables for the same reason, but with REAL dealers: more hands per hour, less dealer mistakes, lower house edge which the players like, - and the lower house edge is made up by getting more hands out per hour - with less errors.
Trust me when I tell you that casino operators really like that.
It's like I tell them:
1. More hands per hour! -
2. with LESS dealer errors!
3. Players LIKE getting FULL PAY on EVERY SINGLE WIN they can scratch out!
4. because the game is faster, YOU get more table hold WHILE the player actually has a LOWER HOUSE EDGE.
5. Top-scale casinos have already converted to it: The Barona in San Diego, The Borgata Resort in Atlantic City, the Cannery, Ameristar Casinos, the VENETIAN and Palazzo of the Las Vegas Sands Corporation, and every Stations property....it's doing quite well!
They're like:
okay, game looks good - Where can we sign? [And can we make out?? - almost....] Getting to THAT point is a miracle.
Quote: sodawaterNever mind the fact that I am not in the game-design business, but I wouldn't want to design a game that takes a classic game and then just adds 69% to the combined house edge (1.46% to 2.47%) -- that just seems too greedy for my tastes.
It's not 69% to the house edge. The math is public, and it is better for the player.
But I understand. If you feel more comfortable staying away from it, then go to the poker room, and play all the PLAYER-banked games that you feel comfortable with.
Please...
Quote: sodawaterSecond, let's be clear here. You did not invent an entire new game concept. You took a game in the public domain, and changed one rule on it, and then you added a side bet with a paytable that is similar to existing side bets.
Not quite. I patented something that a thousand some-odd game inventors missed, - kind of like adjusting your bat stroke ever so slightly - to turn a "bases-loaded ground-out" into a down the line triple. Really unique, really novel, and it really works. And everyone else in this business just flat-out missed it.
It's kind of like telling Thomas Edison, "Well...you didn't invent TUNGSTEN or GLASS BULBS, now did you, buddy??! You just put them together! Pfft - a tungsten string in a glass bulb with electricity going through it! Now how complex is THAT! I would have done THAT in my garage next Tuesday! Electricity and Tungsten both already existed...so you ain't sxxt ! Yada, yada, well shoot....I could have figured it out myself on my day off, too, y'know - if I had figured it out and created it all, and then brought it to market and all of THAT jazz...which ain't shit to me, damn you!"
Trust me, I hear this every day. For that matter, John Lennon and Eric Clapton used notes that were already defined and used by miillions of musicians before them, before THEY re-combined them. I worked hard, looked for it hard, and did the hard, work. Got lucky too, I will admit.
So Remember now, we all in this business just deal with poker, craps, and blackjack, - just trying to do it better. Much better. Anyone who comes up with a brilliant 17-dice game with a thousand rules may indeed have something totally brand new and brilliant. Not that it would be popular. Come up with a new and novel combination that SELLS, now that's tricky....
Quote: sodawaterCongratulations on your success, but I would argue that it comes at the expense of the already-shriveling pai-gow-poker player base.
pai Gow Poker and the poker market is the only market that is growing....Blackjack, Roulette, craps are shrinking...believe me, I spend my days studying this industry. I leave the Blackjack Stuff to Geoff "Switch" Hall, - who is amazing in that area, not that Blackjack is anything new either now.
Quote: sodawaterAnd I don't need to work in a casino for "shit-load of years" to understand that 1.46 is a smaller number than 2.47.
Uh, no you don't.
But...it might in:
1. Knowing what will be appealing to gamblers, and what just might sell...
2. Knowing how to design a game that might be appealing to gamblers.
3. Might help you to come off as someone who might know what the hell he is talking about in this industry, which I am not convinced that you are, as a member or player here. Not all are, but then, your assessments of EZ pai Gow, Fortune Pai Gow, and other games aren't exactly "on the mark," - nor do they need to be, or that it really matters. You have a login, not a game or a job in the industry, that makes a difference. So if I say you don't know what you're talking about, or are off the mark, that is the case.
4. And yes, you are right that 1.46 is smaller than 2.47. Good for you. And it has nothing to do with any casino games that you may talk about, as the figures of 1.46 and 2.46 are the closest you may ever get in your life to determining the future or performance of any casino game in the casino industry.
Personally and Professionally, if I am ever stuck for math numbers on a casino game, (which is rare), I call either Cindy Liu or Charles Mousseau, and my company cuts them a check at $100/hr.
The figures of "1.46" or "2.47" is....well...the price of a bottle of sodawater.
Quote: IbeatyouracesSoda, you should know by now Dan only gives two $hit$t about him and his "industry." He couldn't care less what any players think as we think the same of him and his "industry."
I actually care very much what players think. So do a lot of other people in this industry.
But what the 99% of True American Gambling Public thinks - and what they spend their money on in the real casino pit - has very little to do with some of the impromptu game reviews here, especially when they are very far off the mark on a game assessment. Too often it's personal opinion and character attacks falsifying real-world math and game results. Other times it is flowery log rolling reports, when a game is actually dying.
The Gaming industry, on some occasions, actually gets on very insightful field reports here, as well as some insightful game design tips that spot errors in our productions games, or offers some fine recommendations that'll help the games (and the casinos) that you guy play.
And in this business, we check here at this site, but we also cross-check and look at our order books, the Accounts Receivable figures, the "on-site" reports we get from Table Game Directors from around the U.S. and world, the publicly posted table drop and hold figures from states that post figures on the internet, and the table installs, items that would normally say it all.
Don't like a game? - Don't play it. Say why, accurately, and to the point.
Do like a game - you will indeed play it. Say why it is good, and you'll see even more good games.
It doesn't matter how you feel about me or anyone else for telling you gamblers the truth of how it all works. If you want to see a game perform better, say how it can perform better:
- "The Straight Flush Side bet on High Card flush is not giving me enough return - it never seems to hit!"
- "Betting a dollar on the 'Hit and Run' Blackjack progressive gets me no return on that progressive - Blackjack is a fast game, - and the progressive is wiping me out at a $1 a shot!"
- "I like the 21+3 side bet, but we need to see more of the 'Xtreme' paytable - which pays more like three-card poker" or "Keep the orignal table"
- or even, "This game is a rip off of another game that came out in 2006, because of the following common rules..."
etc.
No, 5% commission isn't that hard, and forcing the players to get $5 increments makes it even easier, but sitting at home and thinking about paying with a 5% commission is a hell of a lot different than doing it on a live game. Even a player that tosses out the right amount to make paying it easier doesn't really make it easier because the dealer still has to do the math to make sure it's right, so it doesn't really save time or help at all.
The thing I think you're (sodawater) missing is shot takers. Probably less than 1 in 100 players are shot takers but you have to look at everyone as if they are, because as a dealer your job depends on it, and even non-shot takers make mistakes so you really do have to watch everyone closely.
Anything that makes a game go faster with less mistakes and a lower house edge, but a larger hold is going to be win-win.
Making it all "quicker, easier, faster" and seemingly fairer to the player, especially if it IS INDEED fairer to the player,
Is something that a new game quietly needs....
- more action,
- more sales,
- more rave reviews -
- and better gambling for us all - in the end.
I'm in this business, and I when say "I'm trying to offer a better game, a better idea, a better way" - not only to the masses, but to the so-called "sharp" gamblers here at this board, I then get shot down by the people here, and by a few at work (except for two men, and one salesman).
Sometimes the only people who seem to KNOW what a good new game is are the gamblers themselves. Not the arguers here. Not the guys at work. So getting a new game out to them, and without notice at this board, and without fanfare at work, - might be the way to go.....
I've been through a thousand meetings of interminable length, and a thousands "no's" is stopping me and us all, from getting the next hit game out, because a "NO" was asked for somewhere along the line. (The nay-sayers at this board don't have a thing on casino executives in stopping gaming progress...)
Here is my Gaming Industry fantasy:
I am almost tempted to say to my boss - "You know - there were actually NO good new games submitted this week, boss, - just like every other week (almost)"
and signing the game up myself - for the company - at a standard 80/20 corporate split, with a field trial approval form also signed from a local Las Vegas Casino,
and putting in a Purchase order or check request for $2,000 for a new office computer (while it really was for Nevada gaming approval expenses), and with a table layout felt from GPI or GEMACO,
and going to Sunset Station or the Orleans Casino to train dealers on this new game,
and getting the game go live, and as a hit game.......................
THEN informing my gaming company,
"The next Three Card Poker just went live - and we signed it up. Without a commitee that killed it. It took 15 business days to get it done, to boot, just a couple of thousand dollars for the layout and approval. " Nobody would know about it, not here, not at work, no fuss, no muss,
it would just get done.
I also know this is an industry that is very resistant to change, so your game must be amazing to even get their attention, let alone the green light.
And FWIW, I hear our house is supposed to be getting EZ Paigow at some point in the future and I'm looking forward to dealing it, I just hope the house way doesn't change too much. :)
Players like the game because they generally see more hands per hour and they don't pay commission on wins. Plus the meter with the hands played since an envy payout or the Q-high is downright cool (yet meaningless).
For those who like to play due to the lower HA, they only experience 1.46% when they are playing head to head with the banker with no other players. And you must play the hand before you bank. So yeah, you could decide to sit out every hand until the hand before you bank, then play, then bank. A decent strategy if you have money might be to play the minimum until the hand before you bank, then play your normal amount, then bank, then go back to the minimum to come to something close to 1.46%.
But for 90% of players, that doesn't matter. They don't bank, and they'd rather play every hand with the same amount of risk. That's why EZ is (not will be, as it was a year ago) successful.
And I've been saved by a Q-H lob by the dealer a couple of times because I've had lower hands, so you can't say it's a "100% commission" with the Q-H.
For the other 10% of players, they will continue to seek out and play Pai Gow for the opportunity to bank and lower the house edge as a result.
There is a real difference between AC (and CT) and Vegas rules and attitudes in PGP. On the east coast, the player really can bank on alternating hands in the way that Sodawater described. Most other players understand and expect this decision. It's just customary. I don't think Dan has played much in this environment. In Vegas, players are allowed to bank, but only after the banker button has been passed to every other player in turn (sometimes with a return to the dealer between players). Banking is less common, and less advantageous, as a result. Perhaps Sodawater has limited exposure to this environment?
Removing the player banking option in PGP is like switching from S17 to H17 or from 3:2 to 6:5 in BJ, or switching from 6-4 to 6-3 PP in 3CP, or single-0 to double-0 in Roulette. Of course the operator has that right. But to suggest that these changes only affect one player, or that only one player cares about the change, or even that the change is somehow better for players is going to be a tough sell here.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyI think the opinions on these matters would be a lot more informed if they were in the industry. I know what you're saying is spot on because I deal 40 hours a week and I have semi-regular conversations with our DTG (he's an accessible and friendly guy).
I also know this is an industry that is very resistant to change, so your game must be amazing to even get their attention, let alone the green light.
I tell you, it can take years - IF it were to ever happen for some games.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyAnd FWIW, I hear our house is supposed to be getting EZ Paigow at some point in the future and I'm looking forward to dealing it, I just hope the house way doesn't change too much. :)
The house way is not affected, - any house way can be used with EZ Pai Gow.
Quote: Paigowdan
The house way is not effected, - any house way can be used with EZ Pai Gow.
Do you happen to have any data on the ways that the house way has actually been affected as a result of these installs? Several of the EZ PGP tables I've been on have had a little LCD screen so the dealer can "cheat" and look at how their hands should be set. I know that's not EZ PGP's "fault" - any new table would likely have this feature - but it does lend itself to a stronger possible house way since memorization is less important. Have any houses gone that route when installing EZ PGP?
Quote: rdw4potusGood lord! I checked this thread at midnight EDT & went to sleep. Got to the office this morning, and there's 2 pages of posts from the middle of the night!
There is a real difference between AC (and CT) and Vegas rules and attitudes in PGP. On the east coast, the player really can bank on alternating hands in the way that Sodawater described. Most other players understand and expect this decision. It's just customary. I don't think Dan has played much in this environment.
Actually, I have.
Quote: rdw4potusIn Vegas, players are allowed to bank, but only after the banker button has been passed to every other player in turn (sometimes with a return to the dealer between players). Banking is less common, and less advantageous, as a result. Perhaps Sodawater has limited exposure to this environment?
I don't know exactly how much exposure sodawater has had to the gaming industry, but my experienced guess it is very little. Player Banking isn't just reading on an Internet site "....1.46." I've dealt years of Pai Gow Poker, player banked and house-banked, and it's about procedures, hands per hour, hand copies, and a million and one other factors that have been re-evaluated in ways stemming from impact in the casino pit, reviews of games' performances, and re-designs of games and Internal controls to determine its continued validity - or invalidity.
Player banking was added to Pai Gow poker as it was brought from the back room card rooms to the casino pit, and as part of the process, player banking was added as a transition for the game to the pit, almost as an after thought, and with less thought then as to how it might impact - (or disrupt is a better word) the game in the casino pit.
The game, as well as internal reviews of procedures for the game, have determined that player banking was a legacy convention or "vestige" of the game's ancient transition process from the card room to the casino pit. Player banking is now know as a hinderance to the modern game, in terms of ease of dealing, hands per hour, house edge, game protection, additional training, surveillance, and a host of other negative factors.
Quote: rdw4potusRemoving the player banking option in PGP is like switching from S17 to H17 or from 3:2 to 6:5 in BJ, or switching from 6-4 to 6-3 PP in 3CP, or single-0 to double-0 in Roulette.
Not exactly. There are countless other factors (aside from "copies and house edge" that the players POV only seem to focus on) that casino operations must consider - as to banking's continuing viability and value in the pit.
Quote: sodawaterOf course the operator has that right. But to suggest that these changes only affect one player, or that only one player cares about the change, or even that the change is somehow better for players is going to be a tough sell here.
I know it doesn't affect one player, but rather, how it affects "other players" and "all players" - as well as pit operations itself, and it has been reviewed and examined. Any vestige of player banking mixed onto any modern house-banked casino games within the pit is in the process of being discontinued and eliminated; in return, poker rooms and card rooms where players can bank, and where those operations are geared and setup for mixed player banking and pure player banking still remain as an option for some players.
Quote: Paigowdan
I don't know exactly how much exposure sodawater has had to the gaming industry, but my experienced guess it is very little. Player Banking isn't just reading on an Internet site "....1.46." I've dealt years of Pai Gow Poker, player banked and house-banked, and it's about procedures, hands per hour, hand copies, and a million and one other factors that have been re-evaluated in ways stemming from impact in the casino pit, reviews of games' performances, and re-designs of games and Internal controls to determine its continued validity - or invalidity.
Most players really don't care what factors the casino is considering, and are instead focused on the impact on themselves. Player banking is better for the player. Disallowing it is better for the house. Similarly, games that allow player banking are better for the player, and games that don't allow banking are better for the house. EZ PGP tables are more profitable than non-EZ PGP tables, and that profit by definition comes from a transfer of funds from the player to the house. As a player, it seems awfully reasonable to want that transfer to happen as slowly as possible.......
Quote: rdw4potusMost players really don't care what factors the casino is considering, and are instead focused on the impact on themselves. Player banking is better for the player. Disallowing it is better for the house. Similarly, games that allow player banking are better for the player, and games that don't allow banking are better for the house. EZ PGP tables are more profitable than non-EZ PGP tables, and that profit by definition comes from a transfer of funds from the player to the house. As a player, it seems awfully reasonable to want that transfer to happen as slowly as possible.......
Understood.
...with more casinos, more competition, more expenses, etc., operators have to squeeze every cent of profit out of every table-minute that they can.
I know for a fact that we've knocked out some competing Pai Gow tables that were a couple of percentage points lower in terms of table hold that had banking. You get a table full of players that are cross-banking and swaping money between each other, with the table making 75 cents or $1.25 per round in quarters, that game will eventually be shown the door, sooner rather than later.
Quote: rdw4potusDo you happen to have any data on the ways that the house way has actually been affected as a result of these installs? Several of the EZ PGP tables I've been on have had a little LCD screen so the dealer can "cheat" and look at how their hands should be set. I know that's not EZ PGP's "fault" - any new table would likely have this feature - but it does lend itself to a stronger possible house way since memorization is less important. Have any houses gone that route when installing EZ PGP?
Very few houses have that "dealer assist" feature (and it's a SHFL product); 99% of casino houses have adequate and competent staff for Pai Gow poker dealing.
The size and complexity of the house way that can be loaded is limited; also, casino houses aren't going to install a six-page long tournament-player level strategy into the device. Also, exceptional hand setting plays may get some attention. You see a dealer keep 7's and 2's together with a KQ top, and two hands later you see the dealer split 7's and 2's with a K-9, you know something is up.
Even with the most advanced house way, the most you can get from perfect strategy play over a standard and "decent" house way is maybe 1/5th or 1/4 of a percent.
Quote: hook3670Dan, my question is why the dramatically different bonus paytable? I think, it was a month since I played, the highest payout was 2000-1 and the other payouts were different like a-5 natural straight with A-K kicker. Now I realize hitting these is ridiculous odds but my wife twice was one card away from a natural 7 card straight flush. The sad part was one of the times it broke right at the 4 card mark and didn't even get a 5 card straight flush!
The earliest version of EZ Pai Gow had multiple awards of 2000:1, instead of a single top award of 8000:1 (the 7 card natural straight flush), for the same house edge. Part of it was to differentiate the earlier version from other Pai Gow brands.
Another reason was that with the 8000:1 table, the top award would either never hit, or if it did hit, would be for an amount that some smaller properties would find unacceptable.
Think of the 2000:1 pay table as the "small property pay table," and the standard 8000:1 pay table as the large operator pay table.
In Atlantic City, the 2000:1 pay table is the only available paytable at this time. In Las Vegas, most properties (Cannery, Stations) like the 8000:1 pay table. What ever the customer requests and orders, the customer gets.
Quote: PaigowdanThe earliest version of EZ Pai Gow had multiple awards of 2000:1, instead of a single top award of 8000:1 (the 7 card natural straight flush), for the same house edge. Part of it was to differentiate the earlier version from other Pai Gow brands.
Another reason was that with the 8000:1 table, the top award would either never hit, or if it did hit, would be for an amount that some smaller properties would find unacceptable.
Think of the 2000:1 pay table as the "small property pay table," and the standard 8000:1 pay table as the large operator pay table.
In Atlantic City, some operators like the 2000:1 pay table. In Las Vegas, most properties (Cannery, Stations) like the 8000:1 pay table. What ever the customer requests and orders, the customer gets.
Question for Dan, in your years of dealing have you seen or dealt a natural 7 card straight flush?
Quote: PaigowdanPlayer banking is only important for you, Sodawater - and so you really should be playing player-banked Pai Gow Poker in Card rooms, which is GREAT action - instead of putting demands on casino operators and their pit operations as to how THEY should run their pits. Your business won't be missed by anyone in the casino pit, although you may be a better fit in a player-banked card room.
First of all, I will say that I like the idea of EZ Pai Gow and will try it out if it appears at a casino I play at. Pai Gow Poker is probably my favorite casino game and I generally play for high stakes.
With all of that said, I think it's a mistake for casinos to not have bankable Pai Gow Poker. Frankly with the proliferation of casinos, I have a choice as to where I can play, and for casinos that don't offer bankable Pai Gow Poker, I won't play there with any degree of significance. The very minute though, that operators blindly assume that they can start taking away rules that make us -EV players happy, is the minute they'll start to have a problem. It may not manifest itself right away, but when you start taking the attitude that "our business won't be missed" for this or that reason, you're losing site of what it takes to make a good customer happy. Competition has a wonderful way of offering choice these days, and those operators that get a little too greedy will likely pay for their choices in the end.
Quote: sodawateras you said -- most of the player base is too uneducated to understand how bad the new version of the game is.
Ahhhh.....that isn't what I said!
I said that most players don't care about banking illustrated by the fact that many do not bank given the opportunity to do so and they prefer to play more hands per hour and not have to deal with commissions on every winning hand.
Just because you feel passionate about banking and the lower edge available if a player has the opportunity and can bank every other hand, does not make it important to the rest of the gaming public. If some portion of them like the new version of the game for the faster play and no-commission, so be it. And I guess they do as casinos continue to add the game.
News flash......what is important to you in a casino game is not important to everyone else!
Quote: IbeatyouracesI know of one place that allows the player and dealer to alternate banking instead of the opportunity going from player to player around the table as long as noone else wants to bank. So theoretically even on a full table, you can bank every other hand so long as nobody else wants it. I don't know if it helps much, but it is out there.
Harrah's Grand and Beau Rivage in Biloxi both allow banking every other hand, even on a full table. If no one else wants to player bank it just comes right back to you again. The stupid J high PAI GOW I got cost me a little over $300 last time I banked.
