BJ Switch - What is 22?

Hello all - first time poster, long time reader. Had a question come up at the tables last weekend that everyone in our group said should be decided here on Wizard of Vegas!

We were playing Black Jack Switch - I know, I know, please don't disreagard this post just because of that. The rules on the table clearly say that the dealer "hits on soft 17 and pushes on all 22s.".

Well, 4 of us were at the table with hands in play (non-busts) and the delaer had an ace showing. When it was her turn, the dealer flipped over another A - so she had A-A - and then drew a 10.

We stopped her right there. Isn't that 22, and a push for the table?

The dealer, at first, looked at us like we were on Mars - but then she realized we had a point. A-A-10 is a soft 22; after discussions with the pit boss (who was as confused at first as the dealer), the ruling was to play it as if it was a 12. She played it and ended up with 18. Some of us won, some of us lost.

I contend that the table should clearly state that the hands push on "hard 22s", and draw to soft 22s. Another pit boss came over later, and as we explained the situation to her, she was ready to throw us out. "What, do youwant us to put every rule on the table?" she stated sternly.

Um, yes, we do.

Am I making too much out of this incident? Am I right to think that the BJ Switch felt should state that the hands push only on hard 22s?

Thanks for your responses!

I am pretty sure all 22's are supposed to push. What casino was this?

a,a,2 is played as a 12, unfortunately for you guys.

Quote: ez19

... and pushes on all 22s.

Is that what it said on the felt? Did it say 'all'?

If it said "pushes on 22" then I would agree that it's open to interpretation - or review on a rule sheet.

If it said "pushes on hard 22" then, yeah, the dealer should hit that soft 12.

But "pushes on all 22s" seems to indicate that if the dealer had A-A, she should not have even taken that first hit!

Quote: ez19

"What, do you want us to put every rule on the table?"

Yes and no. The rule does not have to be on the felt, but it should be handy, like on the plastic card that states all the little rules.

Isn't it a Commission rule that game rules must be clearly stated?

Quote: ez19

Am I making too much out of this incident?

Hell no!

22 always signifies a busted hand. At no time do we ever say in blackjack "hard 12/soft 22". 22 is in a different category of hands - it must be busted to be a 22.

I agree that the rule could be slightly clarified in the felt or a sign simply as an informative measure, but the concept of hard and soft 22 doesn't really exist and I think the rule is not that ambiguous. Simple logic states that the rule change in blackjack switch is referring to a dealer pushing on all hands where they otherwise would have busted in normal rules that result in a score of 22.

To put it another way, AA10 is a hard 12, and not a 22 point hand ('a soft 22'), plain and simple. Soft 22 does not exist in any realm of blackjack. The blackjack switch rules are only modifications to regular blackjack rules - they must be clear what those modifications are, and where they are not stated implicitly or explicitly, the traditional rules of blackjack apply. Soft 22 is not a concept in blackjack, and I don't think blackjack switch creates this concept. It simply creates the concept of a certain busted hand becoming a push, and the rules are modified accordingly. 22 remains a hard, busted hand.

PocketAces -

Your reasoning is quite logical, and I do agree with it - unless the felt said "ALL" 22s.

On a table where they don't hit soft 17, the felt says they "Stand on all 17s". It's the use of the word "all" that opens it up to the interpretation that A-A is a 22, and pushes.

If the dealer has AAT it counts as 12. It may not be clear from the rules on the table, but the thrust is that the dealer plays his hand the same way as in blackjack, including hitting a soft 17. If the dealer happens to BUST on a HARD 22, then any wagers still on the table will push.

Quote: appistappis

a,a,2 is played as a 12, unfortunately for you guys.

A-A-2 is 4.

Thanks to all for the responses. Sorry I haven't been here to respond over the past few days.

One clarification - after talking to my friends, I want to clarify what the felt said. The felt said that the dealer pushes on 22 - it does not say "all 22s". My mistake.

dlevinelaw- This was the Mirage casino in Las Vegas.

DJTeddyBear- thanks for the words of support! :)

pocketaces - I kind of get what you are saying, but this is blackjack switch, not blackjack. Since they are two different games, I don't think you can "transfer" rules from one game to another. For instance, you say "22 alwasys signifies a busted hand". Does it? If so, then I would have gotten paid. But I didn't, as 22 is not a bust in BJ Switch. Therefore, I don't think that logic works. I just disagree with your opinion when you say that BJ Switch is a "modification" of the blackjack, and any unwritten rules just default to BJ rules. Why?

Wizard - I guess all I am asking is that the felt would be changed to "pushes on hard 22s." Then I wouldn't have any problem. The fact that no one - not the dealer, not the pit boss - could produce any sort of written documentation to show the rules irked me. If DJTeddyBear is right, and there is a rules card for each game, couldn't they have produced this card quickly?


Thanks for your responses!

Quote: ez19

I want to clarify what the felt said. The felt said that the dealer pushes on 22 - it does not say "all 22s". My mistake.

In that case, I totally agree with everyone who was arguing against me.

If you recall, I always said "If the felt says 'all 22s'..."

Quote: ez19

DJTeddyBear- thanks for the words of support! :)

You're very welcome, and sorry that I now have to shoot you down a bit.

Quote: ez19

I guess all I am asking is that the felt would be changed to "pushes on hard 22s."

Sorry, but I agree with the pit boss on this one. Can't change the felt to have every little rule covered. In A.C., it's the Commission, not the casino, that determines the required wording on the felt.

Quote: ez19

The fact that no one - not the dealer, not the pit boss - could produce any sort of written documentation to show the rules irked me. If DJTeddyBear is right, and there is a rules card for each game, couldn't they have produced this card quickly?

I need to back-pedal a little on that one.

I am much-more experienced with rules and procedures in A.C. I live in NJ.

Whenever I go to Vegas, I am shocked at the lack of rules governing casino procedure. When I'm in Vegas and see something that would never fly in A.C., I get the feeling that I'm in an oversized, carpeted saloon from a western movie set in the 1800's.

In A.C., every casino has a display of 'how to play' brochures for every game offered. The display is usually next to the Security window or the Casino Control Commission window. Usually, a few copies of the brochure for every game in the pit, is in the podium in the employee area of the pit. If they run out, make a stink and someone will go get more.

You can also go to the Commission window and ask to see the full, detailed rules for every game. Make a stink, and they'll bring it to the table.

Thanks for the responses, DJ. Got another rules/procedural question for you (and the board) from this game.

If you decide to switch - can you unswitch? If so, when?

We learned it's like chess. If your hand is still out there, and the dealer still is switching the cards, you can change your mind and unswitch. However, once the switch is made, and the dealer takes his/her hands off the cards and you have completed the "switch" hand motion, you can't unswitch.

You are allowed to unswitch up until the time you have made a decision to take a card. Likely you could even switch after you've made the decision to stand on your first hand since you haven't drawn a card. Once you motion for a hit and the card is in play you can't switch back.

ez19,

It's not just in Las Vegas where the rule can get misinterpreted. A casino in Russia actually stood on ALL soft and hard 22's. I'm not sure what the effect is (I'm sure The Wizard could work it out :-) but I'm sure it's detrimental to the casino if they were to do this.

Your question has been well answered by several posters mainly in the sense that A,A,10 or even A,6,5 would be considered as 12 and not 22.

Incidentally, the casinos in Las Vegas will have 'Internal Controls' i.e. a full description of the game. It does state, in the description, that the dealer will push on a 'Hard 22' and gives examples of when to continue drawing as in the A,6,5 example above.

The description, in the procedures, for allowing an 'unswitch' is "provided there has been no further action" (as answered by boymimbo).

I think the next variation should have 'Push 27' - players would like that :-) :-) :-)

During a recent Switch gaming session, the "Soft 22" question occurred twice. Both instances were 3 carded, that is NOT A-A, but was still played out the same, that is, the house played them as Soft 22/Hard 12 and continued taking cards. One time the dealer drew another 10 and THAT Hard 22 was a push, the second time the dealer drew a 6 to a Hard 18 and some some players won, and some lost.

It was never specifically spelled out in any detail, no note on the table like Dealer Hits Soft 17 and Stands on ALL 22 as other respondents to this thread have mentioned/requested nor was it spelled out on the card at the table explaining the casino's rules. While I understand the point made by some that it would be nice to SPECIFICALLY call out this rule with either a label on the felt or on the rules card, my question to anyone that has come across this circumstance would be:

Did you question when the dealer turned up A-A? That hand by itself is a "SOFT 22" it you stop and think about it. If A-A is assumed to be a 12 (or even a 2 if you want) then the next card being a 10 changes nothing. While I understand the frustration that the casino isn't spelling out this rule, my local casino the Hard Rock in Tampa doesn't specify this condition nor did any casino I played at to my memory on my last trip to Las Vegas, if no one argues that A-A is a Soft 22, then A-A-10, A-3-8, A-4-2-5 (in that order) would ALL still be a Soft 22/Hard 12 and I would not have an argument with the dealer continuing taking cards until a HARD 17 or higher is reached.

The felt says dealer will hit SOFT 17. And I will argue that under the rules of BJ A-A is indeed a soft 22. just because players choose to play it as 12 does not alter the fact that 11 and 11 is indeed 22. think even Geoff would not argue with that fact.

Quote: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/rules of casino games in great britain - july 2008.pdf

The values of the cards dealt to any hand are as follows:
a) the first Ace dealt to any one player in any game has the value of 11 unless that would give the player a score of more than 21 at the end of the game and, subject to that, any Ace has the value of 1;

These are essentially the old rules before deregulation. Thus AA or AAK are both worth 12 (11+1) (1+1+10) by definition.

btw I first came across the situation playing switch at my local casino and joked with the dealer whether it counted as 22 (as both of us sort of knew it wasn't).

Different here in the colonies, old chap.
Aces may be counted as 1 or 11 points, 2 to 9 according to pip value, and tens and face cards count as ten points.

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" And theoretically, you could hit the aces instead of splitting," Possibly another John Patrick student ?

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He actually recommended that on one of his videos. But only after charting the dealer.

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I am working on a BJ game. Absolutely sure member here will hate it. I am aiming for the majority of players instead. You know the ones who know insurance is a sucker bet, but ALWAYS take even money.