The "Frank Rajek" Ultimate Texas Hold 'em strategy.
So many players play UTH quite poorly, - so very poorly - (and everyone here agrees...) - but UTH strategy shouldn't be hard to do.
So far, NO one here at this place could come up with a one-sentence, one-line Holy Grail of 4x UTH strategy, in a nutshell. No one, - not even CRM or Mike.
So...I HAD to bounce THIS one off of "old school casino bastard" Frank Rajek himself. And he gave me a concise, terse, and VERY accurate strategy for the game, something akin to Mike Shackleford's "Wizard's simple Strategyfor Blackjack." I had to post this, because Frank showed up old' Danny Boy on this one - I had missed it!!!!
I was telling Frank recently over dinner at Sergio's Italian Restaurant that my wife plays the sh]t out of Three Card Poker every time we go the Orleans - but SHE CANNOT seem to get the BASIC 4x play move in UTH!
Frank said UTH raising is the same thing as three card poker, and that is actually it:
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If you would PLAY a three card Poker hand with Q-6 or better, then you would also Raise it 4x on UTH with the same hand! Just do it, it's perfect.
Takes balls, though, but you gotta do it, as the 4x raise is where it is at. He argued that Q-6 is almost the same as Q-8, - and lowering to Q-6 accounts for dropping the J-10 4x bet anyway, and is essentially the same, statiscally. Different games, but same "accurately ballpark" strategy." I disagree with that fine-tuning logic, but as a simple strategy, it seems very accurate.
I love it: my old school friend/pit boss Frank Rajek giving ME the Strategy for Ultimate Texas Hold 'em: Raise 4x with a Q-6, - just as you would in three card poker, else check. Fucking Simple, and SO close to all 4x strategies on this game - just nuts!!! I am pissed at myself - and CRM - for not seeing this nutshell!At the VERY least, it is one hell of an easy strategy point.
Maybe you do learn something in the pit!!
Q-6, chunk 4x, else check - just like Three Card. That is it. How the f*ck didn't I see this??!! This is 90% of the player's side of the game.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMaybe easy enough for the people on here but 99.9% of all the other UTH players wont play this way. Most players have no poker sense what so ever. Hell, they won't even raise with a big ace let alone Q,6. For these people aren't trying to beat the dealer. They think they need to make a good hand to win. They simply want to win the trips bet because, "thats where the money is."
Most players think like they're playing against the table, not the dealer. Once you get comfortable with the understanding that you only have to beat one guy, it gets easy to follow the correct strategy. From there, the biggest problem is bankroll management: bring enough money to weather the strings of x-x and the bad beats!
Quote: MoscaMost players think like they're playing against the table, not the dealer. Once you get comfortable with the understanding that you only have to beat one guy, it gets easy to follow the correct strategy. From there, the biggest problem is bankroll management: bring enough money to weather the strings of x-x and the bad beats!
I think Bad beats are key in making the Average Joe mistrust the strategy. My wife had an A-9, chunked 4x (while giving me this "you better know what you're doing" eye), paired the ace on the flop, - and then lost to a straight. I checked, and lucked out with the same straight. But Her reaction? "You see, the strategy is WRONG - I lost! And There's the PROOF! You gotta go with your gut!"
yikes....
By concept, this IS UTH.
4x Raise any two cards 10-10 or better (TJ, TQ, TK, TA, JJ, JQ, .... AA suited or not), Pairs 66 to 99, and Any Suited Ace or King.
Call with A6o to A9o, K2o to K9o, Q2o to Q9o, and all others.
2x Raise 2nd or top pair 66 or better*, open-ended 4-str.-fl., 4-Flush Ace or King, high open-ended straight 89TJ or better.
edited: include an open-ended or inside str. or str-fl if paired. Forgot this one.
*-- Must have A or K visible, otherwise 8's or better.
Call others. In general 2-Pair or better is a decided winner/raise.
1x Raise any hand TT or better OR 2nd high pair or better*.
FOLD any hand ranked 1 pair or less such that: pair 55 or less, 66 or 77 has OPTION raise if Ace visible and 1 pocket card plays.
One pair hands need help from kickers: 2-4 + 10-7-K-10-3 board is a fold... note board pair with bad kicker as opposed to 10-4 + 10-7-K-9-3 as a pocket 2nd high pair with a King visible. I find this point raised very important in the game. Pocket cards DO influence the decision,
Player's Choice 88 or 99... generally an Ace or King visible is a 1x Rasie.
This may not be complete enough, and I've been practicing this WoO UTH. +1% BR ($50 betting $2+$2, no side-bet) seems quite doable. Sure there are some -1% BR swings, Poker Happens.
Had to edit this at least once... playing human-automatic, I saw errors here. And, the 4x is based upon multi-handed TH.
If I were to simplify the 2x rule, 2-pairs or better, High pair 88 or better, or second high pair with A or K being 66 or better.
I seem to have trouble with board pair 77 or less on flop holding a Queen high pocket.
Quote: Paigowdan
If you would PLAY a three card Poker hand with Q-6 or better, then you would also Raise it 4x on UTH with the same hand! Just do it, it's perfect.
Takes balls, though, but you gotta do it, as the 4x raise is where it is at. He argued that Q-6 is almost the same as Q-8, - and lowering to Q-6 accounts for dropping the J-10 4x bet anyway, and is essentially the same, statiscally.
I don't know that I'd say that it "accounts for" it. These errors compound; they don't cancel out (ie, raising hands that you shouldn't costs money, just like not raising hands that you should costs money)
I agree that this is a WAY better strategy than most players follow. You are only misplaying a few hands (raising Q6o, Q7o, K2o, K3o, K4o, 22, and not raising JT, J9s, J8s). Having said that, the correct strategy is pretty simple to learn, too.
It doesn't matter. Anyone who cares to play well will learn the correct strategy and play properly. It's not hard, and you can always just get a strategy card. Most people don't understand math, and just don't want to risk the big bet on a hand that wins barely more than 50% of the time. They think that they are being smart by betting conservatively. They don't understand how much money they are giving away by playing this way, and they never will. They win the hand anyway, so they get positive reinforcement for their terrible play.
FWIW, this is a good thing. UTH is a slow game. The HE is too low for a game that has that few hands per hour. I suspect that most players give up a 10% edge, or more. If everyone started playing properly, and so the house profits dropped by 80%, I suspect that the game would get removed from most casinos. Plus, they would stop comping it so well :)
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
If you would PLAY a three card Poker hand with Q-6 or better, then you would also Raise it 4x on UTH with the same hand! Just do it, it's perfect.
I don't know that I'd say that it "accounts for" it. These errors compound; they don't cancel out (ie, raising hands that you shouldn't costs money, just like not raising hands that you should costs money)
Yes, they [the errors] do compound, but it is still very close, extremely close, to the full strategy - which is ALWAYS worth fully learning. I find that learning the "easy and close" strategy helps lead a person seek the full, correct strategy, when hooking into a new game - IF they have the courage to bet.
Quote: AxiomofChoice..Most people don't understand math, and just don't want to risk the big bet on a hand that wins barely more than 50% of the time....
FWIW, this is a good thing. UTH is a slow game. The HE is too low for a game that has that few hands per hour. I suspect that most players give up a 10% edge, or more.
Yes, I think they give up a HUGE percentage, - moreso than "hitting or not hitting 16 vs. 7" in blackjack by comparison, as giving up the 4x raise is huge. But It does take courage to chunk 4x on K-3 suited, but the real problem with so many UTH players is that they "trust their gut more than they trust the math."
I think it is far more a "gambler's gut and courage" issue, than an "understanding the math issue," - or obeying the best strategy dictates. A gambler's nerves may rule him in the end, and in many situations. The nature of the game can make any lesser gambler hesitate and fail.
NO other game has this problem to this extent. Here, in UTH, having "the heart," or having the Gambling Cojones to actually TRUST the strategy is so VERY hard to do; you're betting a quarter on the ANTE and the Blind, and you get K-10 offsuit. 90% of the UTH players will say, "Aw, sh]t, now I gotta bet $100 by best strategy? I can't DO it!! CHECK!" I've seen CRM whip it out 4x on the PLAY bet without batting an eye at any level, and I do so, too - (and with my wife yelling at me, "Jesus, Dan, R U F-ing crazy??") The fact of the matter is that I'd be crazy NOT to, but so FEW see it, - that the ballsy play is actually the brainy play in this case; they coincide.
And you are right - with UTH having a 0.53% house edge (when accouting for the element of risk, with RARE proper play!) UTH would be unsupportable. But I can tell you this, - and I believe it now - no WAY will the vast majority of players put their cash and cojones on the line as needed - when real push comes to shove. The mistakes in UTH are NOT like minor cover play mistakes in Blackjack, a fraction of a fraction of a percent. A mistake at the "Raise Four Times on the hole cards alone" level in costs a LOT in percentage, but costs even more in terms of player courage, and so it will not be done. I don't know HOW many times I've seen a UTH player quietly utter, "I just can do it...." - and Check.
When you add in strategy complexity after the flop, it now becomes a matter of brains - and after the potential 4x raise was a matter of balls, so to speak. Between the two, UTH operates as a 3%+ House edge game because of these factors.
Got to hand it to Roger (Pacman) on this one. just brilliant. Roger Snow understands more than just the casino math of his games. He also fully understands the casino player.
Quote: IbeatyouracesIts like getting someone to hit A,7 vs 9-A in blackjack. No matter how much you tell them hitting is the better play, they still will stand with the "I've got 18" mentality. Its futile.
True. But it costs ten thousand times more in UTH.
Playing q-6 costs 0.005486582202112 antes.
Playing q-8 costs 0.004157843137255 antes.
Always checking costs 0.134940757164404 antes. (Ouch!)
Of course the above assumes perfect flop and river play.
12/31/12 Edit: oops just a minor braino: my q-6 and q-8 figures were backwards. I said it right: q-8 is better, but wrote the costs on the wrong hands.
Quote: miplet
Always checking costs 0.134940757164404 antes. (Ouch!)
Of course the above assumes perfect flop and river play.
LOL wow. And people who always check preflop, rarely play even close to optimal on the flop or river either.
If they always decide to check the flop and preflop, it becomes even worse. -0.325 antes. And that assumes optimal river play (since I simply adjusted the payouts of the wizard's table).
But the genius thing is, partly because of the blind bet, even checking preflop and flop still has a reasonable amount of variance (~60% of optimal), so even the people that check this far still can occasionally win!
Quote: PaigowdanTrue. But it costs ten thousand times more in UTH.
Yes, exactly. This is the point. This is why UTH is such a great game.
Of course the ploppies play terribly. They play every game terribly. The difference is that the mistakes in UTH are frequent and expensive. People make a big deal about standing on 16 vs a 10 or standing on soft 17 or 18 but these are actually relatively cheap mistakes. I've seen people check JJ and QQ pre-flop before. I'm still waiting to see someone check KK... I know it's only a matter of time.
Why is this great? It's because, even though the theoretical house edge against the perfect player is 2.3%, the ACTUAL house edge against the collection of people who actually play is closer to 10%. And, this means that they comp it very, very well. I'm convinced that the value of comps that I get from this game exceeds my expected loss. Add this to the fact that I love playing the game and it's a great situation.
IMO, it's the best comp hustling game in the casino, by far. You can play a perfect strategy with the strategy card on the table in front of you. No secretly counting cards, no cover plays. They will still comp you back more than you lose. And, there is the possibility of some good scavenger plays. Once, I was playing, a girl sitting beside me was playing black chips and raised 3x with AQs. We had been chatting, so I asked if I could have the other hundred of that bet. She said sure. That is a HUGE +EV play for me (and it won!) Nothing to feel guilty about here; I did not talk her into going 3x. Actually, I suggested to her that she go 4, but, she didn't want to, so gladly took the rest of her EV -- better than than donating it to the house.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
IMO, it's the best comp hustling game in the casino, by far. You can play a perfect strategy with the strategy card on the table in front of you. No secretly counting cards, no cover plays. They will still comp you back more than you lose. And, there is the possibility of some good scavenger plays. Once, I was playing, a girl sitting beside me was playing black chips and raised 3x with AQs. We had been chatting, so I asked if I could have the other hundred of that bet. She said sure. That is a HUGE +EV play for me (and it won!) Nothing to feel guilty about here; I did not talk her into going 3x. Actually, I suggested to her that she go 4, but, she didn't want to, so gladly took the rest of her EV -- better than than donating it to the house.
I never really considered playing UTH because I'm a poor low roller and really wouldn't care for the swing (the SD of a $5 game of UTH is $247/100 hands, worse than $1/$2 NLHE), but I never seriously considered that the comp rate will cover virtually all my expected loss.
FWIW, I play about half of what I would like to play, because I don't think I can handle the swings.
Also, I'd suggest playing when the table is full or almost full. It makes the game is rather slow, and you get comped at the same rate.
Finally, one thing to remember is that your EV is -2.3%, but the large 500x royal payoff is worth about 1.5% or so. So, your EV between royals is closer to -3.8%. In other words, expect to lose about 3.8% of your ante for the most part, and then once in a while cash in a huge payoff. At a slow-ish game you can expect a winning royal every 1300 hours or so. That's less than once every 3 years if you play 4-hour sessions twice a week. So, the "long term" is quite long here.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
Finally, one thing to remember is that your EV is -2.3%, but the large 500x royal payoff is worth about 1.5% or so. So, your EV between royals is closer to -3.8%. In other words, expect to lose about 3.8% of your ante for the most part, and then once in a while cash in a huge payoff. At a slow-ish game you can expect a winning royal every 1300 hours or so. That's less than once every 3 years if you play 4-hour sessions twice a week. So, the "long term" is quite long here.
Yeah I left the point out that hitting the royal is a $2500 payout on the $5 game worth 1.5% of the return. I don't think I could hack playing UTH that long; I would need to get lucky. :D
I've done all of these and am pretty sure I am plus E.V. lifetime on the game. I never play trips, unless someone else wants to play on my spot (and they sometimes tip!). I would add to that the fairly frequent dealer errors where even one per hour will swing the odds in your favor if you play correct strategy. There is also the added possibility of "extra information" <wink nudge>. I really should play more.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIMO, it's the best comp hustling game in the casino, by far. You can play a perfect strategy with the strategy card on the table in front of you. No secretly counting cards, no cover plays. They will still comp you back more than you lose. And, there is the possibility of some good scavenger plays. Once, I was playing, a girl sitting beside me was playing black chips and raised 3x with AQs. We had been chatting, so I asked if I could have the other hundred of that bet. She said sure. That is a HUGE +EV play for me (and it won!) Nothing to feel guilty about here; I did not talk her into going 3x. Actually, I suggested to her that she go 4, but, she didn't want to, so gladly took the rest of her EV -- better than than donating it to the house.
