Craps Questions for a Beginner - I apologize for my ignorance

Hey everyone,

I have recently been reading about craps on this forum as well as on wizard of odds to get a better understanding of the game. I think that alot has been explained very well on both sites but I guess I am looking for a little validation or reinforcement on certain topics that I have been confused about. I apologize if the answers to these questions have already been answered in extensive detail as I still am confused about them despite the fact that they may be clear as day (and relatively novice) to others.

1. I was wondering if someone could explain come bets in more detail. I have never actually seen anyone make a come bet (or may have not realized they were doing so when they did it) when playing craps live at a casino (albeit I have played only a handful of times intermittently). My understanding of the come bet is that it is essentially like putting money behind your own personal point. So after the point has been established, if you place money for the come bet, the next number that is rolled becomes your own personal point. The shooter keeps rolling until he hits a seven (and everyone loses their money) or hits either point (the original point and the point established for the come bet). My understanding is that odds can also be placed behind this come bet as well? I was wondering what happens if the original point is rolled before the point for the come bet? What happens to the come bet then? Do I ask for it back or do I lose it? Similarly, if I win on the come bet, what happens to the original bet? Does it remain out on the table or do they give it back? I think part of my confusion is that other people have used come bets and place bets interchangeably as such, I have been confused in trying to decipher the meaning.


2. Similarly, if I place a passline bet with full odds and the point is rolled and I win, I have often been confused about what happens next. Meaning, my odds bet is still out there. Can I grab it back or do I have to notify the dealer before I grab it back? This also occurs with place bets. I have noticed that if the point is rolled, other plays do not ask for their place bets back and leave them out on the table. Can you ask for these bets back? Are these place bets lost if craps is rolled on the next come out roll?

3.I understand that this is up for a lot debate based on previous threads, but is it fair to say that to "minimize" house advantages for a novice such as myself, that the "best" way to play would be to play the don't pass line with full odds? It seems playing the wrong way is unpopular so the next best way to play would be to bet the passline with full odds? Then based on what I have read, if I want to place additional bets, the come bet with full odds would be next, followed by place bets, then buy bets. Is this correct?

4. Similarly, if the best way to minimize house advantage is to take full odds, why don't most people (in las vegas) walk a short distance to a neighboring casino that offers craps with 100x odds? I often see most people settling for the closest craps table that only offers 3-4-5x odds and I guess I was wondering if there was something I am neglecting to understand?

I am sorry for all these questions - especially if they are simple. In my brief anecdotal experience, I have noticed the majority of players playing one way. I often see them bet the passline, they seem to take odds that are not at maximum, and I have yet to see anyone make a come bet. Also, I've seen a handful of players make place bets (or what I assume are place bets) on all the numbers that are not the established point. So for a $5 dollar craps table, I often see a 5 dollar bet on the pass line, 10 dollars for the odds bet and 10 dollars EACH on the 4, 5, 8, 9 and 10 if the point is a 6. I assume that this is less than an ideal way to play when considering the odds, albeit I am certain that this is probably a more fun way to play. Any answers or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Quote: spikeykorean

Hey everyone,

I have recently been reading about craps on this forum as well as on wizard of odds to get a better understanding of the game. I think that alot has been explained very well on both sites but I guess I am looking for a little validation or reinforcement on certain topics that I have been confused about. I apologize if the answers to these questions have already been answered in extensive detail as I still am confused about them despite the fact that they may be clear as day (and relatively novice) to others.

Never be sorry to ask questions. This is a great game, but playing when you aren't sure what is happening is not fun, and will likely cost you money. For your first times, find an empty table, and stand next to one of the base dealers (not the stick man). They are more than happy to help you. If the $5 and $10 tables are full, then head to an empty $25 table and ask one of the dealers if they will help you go through the steps. That is what I did. They are standing around, mostly bored out of their minds, and I have found them to be happy for the distraction. Don't play at the $25 level. It will chew up $500 before you can blink.

Quote: spikeykorean

1. I was wondering if someone could explain come bets in more detail. I have never actually seen anyone make a come bet (or may have not realized they were doing so when they did it) when playing craps live at a casino (albeit I have played only a handful of times intermittently). My understanding of the come bet is that it is essentially like putting money behind your own personal point. So after the point has been established, if you place money for the come bet, the next number that is rolled becomes your own personal point. The shooter keeps rolling until he hits a seven (and everyone loses their money) or hits either point (the original point and the point established for the come bet). My understanding is that odds can also be placed behind this come bet as well? I was wondering what happens if the original point is rolled before the point for the come bet? What happens to the come bet then? Do I ask for it back or do I lose it? Similarly, if I win on the come bet, what happens to the original bet? Does it remain out on the table or do they give it back? I think part of my confusion is that other people have used come bets and place bets interchangeably as such, I have been confused in trying to decipher the meaning.

You pretty much have it. The come bet is exactly the same as a Pass Line bet. It becomes your personal point. Easiest to explain with numbers. The point is OFF, indicated by the black puck on the table. You put $10 on the Pass Line and the shooter rolls a 6. The Point is 6, and the dealer puts the White ON puck on the number 6. You now place your odds behind your pass line bet. Let's say you put $20 down for odds. You can now put $10 on the felt in the large area called COME. On the next roll, if a 7 or 11 is rolled, the dealer will put $10 next to the $10 you have on the COME. If it was a 7, you will pick up all $20, since the 6 point just missed, and the next roll will be a new shooter. If the roll was an 11, you can still pick up all $20, or you can pick up the $10 winnings, and you have a $10 Come bet in play for the next roll. Say it was the 11, so you left $10 on the Come. The next roll is 8. The dealer will pick up your $10, and place it inside the box on the number 8. You now have a personal point of 8. If you want to put $20 in odds on that point too, just put them in the Come area, and announce to the dealer "Odds on my 8". The dealer will put them on top of your 8, but offset them to one side.
If a 7 rolls, you lose the 8 (come bet and odds) and the 6 (Pass line and odds).
If an 8 rolls, you just won $34 ($10 for the come bet, and $24 for the $20 odds). The dealer will pay you on the Come area, giving you $34 and also giving you back your original bet that was on the 8 ($10+$20 odds). You can pick it all up, or you can pick it all up but $10, and leave that on the Come bet for the next roll.
If the 6 had rolled instead, your Pass Line bet would win, and you would have gotten paid $34 right in front of you. I usually wait for the dealer to get done paying people on my side of the table, before I try to pick up my winnings. Just keep an eye on your chips in case a player next to you gets confused and tries to grab your chips. It happens.
What happens next, gets tricky. Basically, your $10 come bet 8 is still in play, but the odds are NOT in play.
If the next roll is a 7, you will lose the $10 on the 8, and the dealer will take the $20 odds you had, and place them on the Come area for you to pick up. They are given back to you.
If the next roll had been an 8, instead of the 7, The dealer would take the $30 that was on the 8, and put it back in the Come area for you to pick up. He would also pay you an additional $10 (for your $10 come 8, since the 8 rolled before a 7 did).
If any other good number is rolled, say a 9, that number is now the new point, and the White puck ON will be placed on the number. Your Odds on the 8 are now back in play.
The easy way to tell what is happening is to watch that Puck. If the black OFF is showing, your odds are off. If the White ON is showing, then your odds are in play.
Once you have made a pass line bet, or a come bet, you cannot take it back. The odds you put on the bet can be taken back at any time. For the pass line bet, you can just reach down and pick the odds up. I usually get the dealers attn, but I'm not sure that is needed. If you want your Come bet odds back, just tell the dealer "Please bring down my 8 odds"

Quote: spikeykorean

2. Similarly, if I place a passline bet with full odds and the point is rolled and I win, I have often been confused about what happens next. Meaning, my odds bet is still out there. Can I grab it back or do I have to notify the dealer before I grab it back? This also occurs with place bets. I have noticed that if the point is rolled, other plays do not ask for their place bets back and leave them out on the table. Can you ask for these bets back? Are these place bets lost if craps is rolled on the next come out roll?

Once the dealer is done paying the people close to you, you can pick up all of your money. If you want to play another point, you can leave $10 on the pass line.
The casino knows everyone is rooting for a 7 or 11 on a come out roll, but that would mean all of the place bets would lose. Rather than everyone asking for their place bets back, instead the casino just says those place bets are OFF or Not Working. It is best to confirm this with the dealer the first time you play in a casino. I've never heard of a casino with Place bets ON for a come out roll, but they may be out there.
So the place bets are not working. This means if a 7 is rolled, your pass line bet wins $10. Your Place bets are left where they are. However, if an 8 was rolled, and you had a Place bet on the 8, you are not paid. At this point the dealer will ask if you want to move your Place bet to another number, or take it down, meaning he will give it back to you.
BTW, craps is 2,3, or 12. You never lose your place bets on a roll of craps. I thought craps was the 7 for the longest time, as in CRAP, I lost my money again. Then I realized if that were the case, the game would have been called 'damn it'

Quote: spikeykorean

3.I understand that this is up for a lot debate based on previous threads, but is it fair to say that to "minimize" house advantages for a novice such as myself, that the "best" way to play would be to play the don't pass line with full odds? It seems playing the wrong way is unpopular so the next best way to play would be to bet the passline with full odds? Then based on what I have read, if I want to place additional bets, the come bet with full odds would be next, followed by place bets, then buy bets. Is this correct?

Your most fun is probably to play the Pass Line and then take whatever odds you are comfortable playing. Taking Full Odds cuts the house advantage (HA) to the minimum amount, but you risk losing more. For a new player, I suggest your next bet would be to Place the 6 and/ or 8. The HA on the Place 6 is only 1.52% so it is not too bad of a bet. More importantly, it is easier to understand and will keep you from getting confused while you are playing. The Come bet can get confusing, and if you start to feel lost or overwhelmed, you will not enjoy the game as much.
The Place 6 and 8 requires a wee bit of simple math. You need to know that the Place 6 or 8 pays 7:6, so you need to make Place bets on the 6 or 8 in multiples of 6 (ie. $6, or $12, or $18, or $30, etc).
The 5 and 9 pay 7:5, so Place bets there you make in multiples of $5. The HA on the 5 and 9 is 4.0%, so that is not that great of a bet.
I suggest make your Pass Line bet, and put up your odds once the point is set. Then take $24 and place it in the Come area and tell the dealer you want to "Place the 6 and 8, 12 each".
If the point happens to be the 6, then just Place $12 on the 8. If you want to have 3 numbers in play, pick either the 5 or 9 and Place a bet there.
I will admit this is not the 'best' play from a HA perspective, but it is easier to understand. (it is the way I play most of the time)

Quote: spikeykorean

4. Similarly, if the best way to minimize house advantage is to take full odds, why don't most people (in las vegas) walk a short distance to a neighboring casino that offers craps with 100x odds? I often see most people settling for the closest craps table that only offers 3-4-5x odds and I guess I was wondering if there was something I am neglecting to understand?

Atmosphere is as much a part of the game as the table payouts. Not to be offensive to anyone, but SOME people like the glitz of the major strip casinos. 100x odds is great for the player, Only IF you play them. On a $5 table, you will be putting $500 down behind it. If the point is a 6 and it hits, you win $605. If a 7 rolls, you are down $505, ON A $5 table.
I suggest playing Pl/ odds and placing the 6/8 until it is boring for you. Then you can learn about pressing place bets, wasting your money on hardways, and start making Come bets, which will make you forget what numbers you have in play. But you will be having fun. :-)
Also, try and start on an empty table. If the $5 table is really busy, and the $10 table only has a couple of people, and you can afford to play $10, go there. You will learn 10x faster on a table with one or two people, than you will on a table with 12 people, all making 20 different bets.

Here's your player's Hint: Memorize the odds on the payouts. It GREATLY enhances your understanding of the game.
Place 6 or 8 pays 7:6 , so make bets in multiples of $6.
Place 5 or 9 pays 7:5 , so make bets in multiples of $5.
Odds on a pass line bet of 6 or 8 pay 6:5 , so make your odds a multiple of $5.
Odds on a pass line bet of 5 or 9 pay 3:2 , so make your odds bet an EVEN number. ANY even number
Odds on a pass line bet of 4 or 10 pay 2:1 , so any odds bet is good.

And here is the best tip:
when it is your turn to roll, put $1 down on the pass line next to your bet. That is for the dealers. When you have a point set, put another $1 down as odds. If you make the point, the dealers just got a $4 tip. If you have a bigger bank roll, put a $5 chip down and put $5 odds behind it. If the point is 5 or 9, you know to make it $6 in odds.
Whether or not the bet wins for the dealers, you just made a new friend. And your new friend will now look out for you. If you have the wrong odds out there, and they see it, they will suggest you correct it to make it a better bet.
If you are a girl you get a big break here. You can loudly announce to the dealer that you are new to Craps, and you would like some help making the right plays. The dealer and half of the old bald men (me) will fall all over themselves helping you out. However, if you are male, and you announce that, you will be shunned like you have swine flu. If you are male, try to get next to the dealer, and quietly let them know you are still green at the game, and need some help.

There are three types of smart play I believe:

Very conservative:
Pass line + 1-2x odds
Place the 6 & 8 for 12 bucks, never press

Moderate:
Pass line + full odds
Place the 6 & 8 for something, press when you feel like making some real $

Very risky:
Pass line + full odds
Come line + full odds

I stick with the "very risky" whereas Raleigh up here tends to do the "moderate". He presses quite a bit, so you can change your risk by how often you press. Press means taking your winnings and putting them towards further bets. So, if you have 12 bucks on the 6, hit it and win 14, you can put down 6 or 12 of those winnings for a bigger winning if it happens again.

My biggest tip would be what Raleigh mentioned, find an empty table. The dealers will help you out, compared to a full table where they might be assholes. I would recommend using the wizard's game testing out several betting methods - that's what I do. Personally, I like 3-4-5 because it keeps me honest. If I throw down 10x odds, I'd be getting out of my bankroll pretty fast. With 3-4-5 I can throw down a come bet on each roll with full odds without a huge variance.

RaleighCraps has some good info there. Here's a couple key points that might have gotten lost in all that info.



Come bets and place bets can easily become confused since they are placed in almost the identical position on the board. It's important to understand the relationship of the position of the chips, and the position of the player.

Each of those 6 points has a large square. Place bets are placed on the line at the front or back of the square, while come bets are in the square, barely touching the line. Some casinos use layouts that have double lines at the front and back to make things a little simpler.

There's room for four stacks on each of these lines. The front line is for the players at the front of the table. The chip closest to the stick man is for the player closest to the stickman. Similarly, the back line is for the four players on the sides of the table, with the stack closest to the boxman for the player closest to the boxman.

On a similar note, hardway betting positions have space for 16 stacks. The stack positions work the same way. There's a lot of other bets in front of the stickman, with much smaller spaces. This is because A) They aren't popular bets so a smaller space will suffice, B) They are one-roll bets, so they are easier to track who placed the bet.




Yeah, you can add or reduce place bets, odds on come and don't come bets, and hard ways any time you want. But if you only want to turn it off for a roll or two, just tell him that you're off. He will place a small off disc on top of one of your bets, and usually, he'll remind you that they are off until you tell him to put them on again.

You're right. If the shooter makes his point, you're rooting for a 7, so it is assumed that everyone will want to turn off their odds, place bets and hard ways. There's no need for you to tell the dealer. That's why the large puck has an ON side and an OFF side. I.E., During a come-out, EVERYBODY is off.

Note that in Vegas, hard ways are NOT off for a come out. Most dealers will remind you of this. (On a side note, is that just Vegas, or all of Nevada? And why do they do that?)



Why don't gamblers walk to a casino next door for 100x odds? Even though odds are the bet bet in a casino, it's still a gamble that can be lost. At a $5 table, that's $505 for full odds - on only ONE of up to six numbers!

Truth is, even at tables that offer 20x or even just 10x, few gamblers put more than 5x on their odds.

It's just a bankroll issue.



Why are male beginners frowned upon while female beginners are welcome? Call them 'virgins' instead of 'beginners' and you'll understand.



Hope that helps make it make sense.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Note that in Vegas, hard ways are NOT off for a come out. Most dealers will remind you of this. (On a side note, is that just Vegas, or all of Nevada? And why do they do that?)

I could swear a few years ago it was not that way in Vegas. Although I don't play the hardways much, so I may just not have noticed, but I thought all PLACE/BUY/and Hardways were OFF on the comeout roll. A couple of years ago I noticed the stick would announce "hardways working on Comeout, unless called off". Most everyone then calls them off.
It is the same way in Tunica and Biloxi. Only thing I can figure is they have decided that the people playing the hardways don't understand the game anyway, so let's take their money. Not that it matters of course, since a come out roll has no greater chance of a 7 than any other roll, but it's the principle. 12 collective minds rooting for a 7 or 11 must have an effect on the dice, right ?

Hmmmm.....

I thought the hardways not off was a Vegas/Nevada thing for several reasons.

A) They announce it. Gotta think that they announce it because its unusual.

B) The only casinos I ever played in are A.C., CT, and Vegas. A.C. and CT DO have the hard ways off. (I was once took a day cruise casino out of S.C., but I can't remember what they did.)

I guess I haven't been paying enough attention to what they are doing where. I have been in casinos where they announce that hardways work unless called off, and I have been in casinos where they announce that hardways are off unless called on. Since I can't remember what is done where, I just make certain that they know which way I want it. Frequently, I have hardways working, because I usually only have a buck on them (I view it as a whimsy bet).

In most cases, it really isn't worth the trouble of having the stick man change something up just for me. If I do announce that I want my bet handled differently from the default, the stick man generally remembers my oddities and either marks it that way each time or confirms with me. Sometimes when the dealers rotate, you need to tell the new stick man what you want, and sometimes they pass that kind of info along.

With all the craps shooters on this forum, I can't believe nobody's tried to school you! In no particular order... The come bet is, in the words of the Boneman(nextshooter.com), a virtual pass line bet. It can be thrown out any time after the comeout roll. Free odds the same as the passline. Once the come point is established, the dealer will place your chips in the number box between the place bets. If the pass line point is made, your come bet is still up, unresolved. If the come point is made, the pass line is still unresolved. If a seven is rolled,everybody loses except the bet in the COME box and that quiet little guy standing at the hook betting the dark side with thAT LITTLE SMIRK ON HIS FACE HE'STAKINGMYMONEYTHATLITTLESOBI'LL...sorry, sorry. Anyway if the passline hits the dealer will put your winnings, flat bet and odds, right in front of you. Pick them up. If the come point hits he'll pick up your bet and winnings, flat and odds, and put them in front of you. Pick them up. As to why people bet where or how they do... I'd rather argue theology with a Jesuit, or try to convince a Southern Baptist from Plano that the President was born in Hawaii, than try to explain why or where craps shooters play the way thay do. Suffice to say if a shooter had a big win at one table, he'll probably show up there again. If he got a really good room deal, he'll probably spend some time at the tables there. If a joint has smokin' hot waitresses and he's won there, he'll damn sure play there again, odds or no odds. Me, I drive to Vegas. So while I always visit the Strip for the wild at heart, anything goes vibe, I play downtown(Main Street Station 20X, El Cortez 10X) or Aliante Station(brand new property, 10X, easy access from 215, good comps so far) Good Luck in the future and remember two things 1. Win with a smile, but lose with grace. 2. When you're busted down to your last 5 dollars, throw that red chip dowand say "Dealers on the pass line!".

Quote: ahiromu

There are three types of smart play I believe:
Moderate:
Pass line + full odds
Place the 6 & 8 for something, press when you feel like making some real $

I stick with the "very risky" whereas Raleigh up here tends to do the "moderate". He presses quite a bit, so you can change your risk by how often you press.

Not bad ahiromu. I've never really stated how I play, but you have pieced it together from my posts. I play Pass Line with minimum of 5x odds. If I am on house money, I will take the full 10x. If no one has been making a point, I will forgo the Pass Line bet. I then will put $30 each on the inside numbers (5,6,8,9), and if I have been seeing a fair number of 4s and 10s, I will put $25 each on them. I don't like playing them, but at 1.67%....... and nothing makes you madder than not playing the 4/10, and then watching 3 of them roll in a row. If I do buy the 4/10 for $25, if one hits, I will press them both to $50 each first time. I figure if you are going to play the dumb things, might as well try and collect a black as soon as possible.

For Inside bets, I usually take a pay, then press, but I also run another scheme I really like.
Say the point is 6.
Place Inside 5,8,9 for $80 (25,30,25)
When one of them hits, throw down 45 more and press all 3 at once.
You now have $125 invested, but you have 50,60,50 out there, so you will collect $70.
On the next hit, throw $10 more down, and press all 3 again for (75,90,75).
You now have $135 invested but you get paid $105 if any of them roll again.
If you get one more hit, you are only stuck for $30.
If you can another hit, you are plus $75 and go + $105 each time it hits.
You may be asking, why do it like this? I am trying to hedge a bit against an early 7 out. If the 7 rolls the first time, I only have $80 invested, as opposed to $240 (75,90,75). If a 7 comes after I have hit one inside bet, I only lose $125. On the other side, I have to hit 5 times to make money, as opposed to 3x if you just put the $240 out there
Get a shooter who rolls 6 or 7 Inside numbers and you make out well. If one of those hits was the point, it is even better.
This doesn't work too well for points of 4/10 though. You end up putting $110 out there, then another $75, and then another $40, for a total of $225. A 7 out before you get to collect the 105 once or twice hurts.
If you are playing this and you get a shooter who rolls for 20 minutes, you can make enough to almost ensure a winning session. If you don't get a good roll, this can dent the bankroll.
My press limit is generally around $125, although I have gone over $200 a few times.
I am struggling with the realization I had 600 to 1000 on the table when the 7 outs after a big roll, since it represents a large % of my starting bankroll. I am trying to develop a strategy for this situation. I hate to regress the bets back to $30 each, and have the shooter roll 8 more numbers, but on the other hand, if I am up 3000 on this roll, and I pull 700 from the table, that makes it 3700. If the shooter rolls 10 more numbers, who cares, it still will be a 4Gs roll.

I'm starting to realize craps is a lot like the stock market. Bulls (PL players) make money, Bears (DP) make money, but Pigs get slaughtered.

If you're starting out, I would recommend playing like the following:

- Pass line with (some) odds. Personally, if I don't buy 3/4/5 (full) odds I can't live with myself.

- Place 6/8 for the minimum: $6 at a $5 table, $12 for a $10 table

This play will get you a lot of action, without a lot of risk. This way you can enjoy your game, while learning other aspects. Of course, mixing up bets even at the risk of the house edge is part of the game. Go with your gut as much as you can without being an idiot throwing down half your bankroll in the middle of the table - that's the best I can give you.

Yeah I meant place, I just don't expect anyone to think about buying it so thanks.

looks like you've got your answers, plenty of folks went to a lot of trouble.

here's my 2 cents:

The benefit in reducing the house edge playing "the don't" is minimal in the extreme for most players. Let's say on your trip you wanted to have 3 sessions of 3 hours and expect to bet frequently including come or don't come bets, that might be 450 bets at $10 exposed to the house edge [compared to me you would be a high roller]. By placing all bets on "the dark side" as opposed to "playing right" you have a difference of .05 percent against $4500 for $2.25 in difference. Peanuts, chump change that will totally be obscured by the variance. Making free odds bets? They don't go up against the house edge. You're a Whale and plan to put tens of thousands of dollars every day up against the house edge? OK, I take it back, play the dark side.

[other arguments to play 'the don't' here revolve around other reasons that come down to personal preference for the most part IMO]

Quote: spikeykorean

if the best way to minimize house advantage is to take full odds, why don't most people (in las vegas) walk a short distance to a neighboring casino that offers craps with 100x odds?

I concur with others that you might be underestimating the bankroll needed to play 100X odds and overestimating the benefit. You would play 100X odds because you want the action with a pile of chocolates, the free odds do *not* help you win more money!

And oh yeah, by all means practice on the Wizard's free game. For your Come bet answers, it becomes real clear playing there.

Quote: ahiromu

- Buy 6/8 for the minimum: $6 at a $5 table, $12 for a $10 table

I know you did not mean, Buy the 6/8, as we all know buying the 6/8 is a bad play.
You should probably edit your post, to say what you meant, that is Place 6/8 .

Quote: odiousgambit

The benefit in reducing the house edge playing "the don't" is minimal in the extreme for most players. Let's say on your trip you wanted to have 3 sessions of 3 hours and expect to bet frequently including come or don't come bets, that might be 450 bets at $10 exposed to the house edge [compared to me you would be a high roller]. By placing all bets on "the dark side" as opposed to "playing right" you have a difference of .05 percent against $4500 for $2.25 in difference. Peanuts, chump change that will totally be obscured by the variance. Making free odds bets? They don't go up against the house edge. You're a Whale and plan to put tens of thousands of dollars every day up against the house edge? OK, I take it back, play the dark side.

I play don'ts about half the time I play depending on my mood and my bankroll. Playing don't pass requires more money risked on a given point than playing pass line so that's one thing to consider.

This is because don't pass odds determine how much you can win not how much you can bet. For example, playing don'ts on a point of 4 with 3-4-5x odds and a $5 don't pass bet means you lay $30 odds for a chance to win $15. 3 times odds at $5 allows you to win $15, but playing don'ts at 1 to 2 odds on a point of 4 means you have to lay $30 to win that $15.

On the flip side, playing pass line at $5 on a point of 4 you can take odds of $15 on a 3-4-5x table and win $30 because making a point of 4 is paid 2 to 1.

Odiousgambit's suggestion of playing the Wizard of Odds example craps game to see how craps works is an excellent one.

While I do play at the hook when playing don'ts, I don't smirk when winning. When playing don'ts I like that the single most common number "7" resolves all my don't pass/don't come bets in my favour.

Quote:

I don't smirk...

Ouch! Sorry,man. "The little guy at the hook" is a character out of the whole cloth, strctly from my imagination. I salute anyone who can win at this great, crazy,and sometimes maddening game. I've thought of playing from the dark side myself after four or five point-sevenouts in a row. Good Luck in the future. "Win with a smile, but lose with grace".

Quote: spikeykorean

3.I understand that this is up for a lot debate based on previous threads, but is it fair to say that to "minimize" house advantages for a novice such as myself, that the "best" way to play would be to play the don't pass line with full odds? It seems playing the wrong way is unpopular so the next best way to play would be to bet the passline with full odds? Then based on what I have read, if I want to place additional bets, the come bet with full odds would be next, followed by place bets, then buy bets. Is this correct?

There is no "best" way to play craps. IOW, there is no "one size fits all". IOOW, "different strokes for different folks". Waaaay too many people consider nothing but the house advantage (HA) in deciding what bets to make, ignoring variance, which is probably even more important. The different between the don't pass and the pass bets amounts to one unit out of 1980 units bet; that's a pretty good definition of "insignificant", don't you think?

Come bets are the same as pass bets, just a timing change. You can actually make a come bet on every roll of the dice when the big button is showing "ON". However, you are risking a lot of money, and it can get pretty confusing, so I wouldn't recommend any come bets to a beginner. Keep in mind that every come bet you make is subject to the 1.4% house edge.

As far as taking odds is concerned, many people say that taking odds "reduces the house advantage". In a way, that's true. If you combine the odds bet with the flat bet, the combined HA is lower, but this is because there is NO HA on the odds bet, since casinos all pay true odds on those bets. A different way to look at it is that the expected loss, which is the HA times the amount of the bet, stays the same whether you take odds or not. For example:

$5 pass bet times -.01414 = -$.071 This is the expected loss on a $5 pass bet
To figure the HA, divide the expected loss by the bet amount, so -.071 / 5 = .014.

When you take odds, nothing happens to that expected loss, since there is NO expected loss on the odds bet. The odds bet, however, add "variance", which determines how widely your results are expected to vary from the expected loss. The degree of variance determines how much you are likely to win or lose in a certain number of bets. If you take odds, you have a better chance of coming out ahead, but also a better chance of losing more. For a given "degree of luck" (good or bad), you will win more (or lose more) if you take odds.

$5 pass bet, taking double odds. The expected loss is still about seven cents, but you divide by the total combined bet amount, so the HA appears lower. It's about 0.6%. I believe it's more useful to look at them as separate bets, one with an HA of 1.4%, one with no HA. The significant result of looking at it that way is that you can get more variance without any HA by taking odds. Compare betting $10 on the pass line with betting $5 and taking single odds. If you bet $10 pass line, your expected loss is about 14 cents, whereas betting $5 and taking odds has an expected loss of half that. ADDING odds to your pass bet adds risk, but MOVING money from the flat portion to the odds portion reduces your expected loss. In fact, if you bet $5 pass and take single odds, your average bet is only $8.56, because you only take odds when a point is established, two-third of the time. So you actually REDUCE both risk and expected loss.

Quote: spikeykorean

4. Similarly, if the best way to minimize house advantage is to take full odds, why don't most people (in las vegas) walk a short distance to a neighboring casino that offers craps with 100x odds? I often see most people settling for the closest craps table that only offers 3-4-5x odds and I guess I was wondering if there was something I am neglecting to understand?

See above. It's about variance (volatility). Not too many people can afford to lose $505 dollars per bet. Yes, the expected loss is just a little over seven cents, but that pales in comparison to the volatility. In order to stay in the game at that level, you would need a very large bankroll. Of course, you could experience a winning streak right away, but you could also get hammered.

Quote: spikeykorean

Also, I've seen a handful of players make place bets (or what I assume are place bets) on all the numbers that are not the established point. So for a $5 dollar craps table, I often see a 5 dollar bet on the pass line, 10 dollars for the odds bet and 10 dollars EACH on the 4, 5, 8, 9 and 10 if the point is a 6. I assume that this is less than an ideal way to play when considering the odds, albeit I am certain that this is probably a more fun way to play. Any answers or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

The more numbers you have covered, whether via place bets, buy bets or come bets in addition to the pass line, the more ways you have to win. For example, if you have all six point numbers covered, there are 24 ways to win and 6 ways to lose (the seven knocks down ALL your bets). So, this strategy is "chasing" a pattern of lots of point numbers rolled before a seven. OTOH, a player who bets only on the pass line (with or without odds) is chasing a pattern of making one certain point number before a seven. He/she may stand there for many rolls with no resolution, while others are raking in money. OTOH, when the seven shows, that player loses only the one bet (plus the odds, if any). Clearly, certain patterns of dice rolls favor one or the other of those players. However, in evaluating a strategy, it's important to consider ALL the possible outcomes and THEIR PROBABILTIES. Don't be fooled or misled by someone showing you a particular scenario where one bet or strategy is clearly superior to another.

There is a strategy called the "iron cross", where the player has 30 ways to win, just 6 to lose on every roll. Sounds great, right? You make a "Field" bet that covers 2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 11 and 12, and you place the 5, 6 and 8. The problem is that, when you win one of the place bets, you lose the Field bet, which cuts your win down significantly. You replace resolved bets, so when the seven shows, you lose the whole thing. There's a detailed examination of this strategy on another thread. Maybe they have a search function on this site.

Cheers, and good luck,
Alan Shank

Quote: PeteM

Quote:

I don't smirk...

Ouch! Sorry,man. "The little guy at the hook" is a character out of the whole cloth, strctly from my imagination. I salute anyone who can win at this great, crazy,and sometimes maddening game. I've thought of playing from the dark side myself after four or five point-sevenouts in a row. Good Luck in the future. "Win with a smile, but lose with grace".

No problem.

I'm at the hook mainly because I'm trying to play without attracting attention if most of the people are playing pass. I often have to tell my wife to keep it down when I'm winning on the don'ts as she'll exclaim, "Oh look you won!" or "You need a seven to win right?"

Also I always clap for the shooter if they make their point. Easy come easy go I figure.

I do love to play craps -- even just me at the table, but I must confess I like to people watch at craps. The craps crowd can be a tough and supersitious lot and I find that fun to observe.

I played at Casino Royale once where everyone was playing the don'ts. My wife and I were beside a guy who looked just like the actor Paul Sorvino (from Goodfellas) and he played the don'ts with a $2 12 on his come out roll. The guy hit his 12 three times in the hour I was playing and split each of them with the dealers.

Wow, thank you everyone for your responses. Your replies have significantly enhanced my understanding of the game. I know it can be rather painful to explain some of the basics to new players. At the same time, I feel like craps is very unique and there have been times where I have definitely felt lost. More than anything, I always get confused about "craps etiquette" and am always a little embarrassed to ask during live play as I don't want to slow up the game. I've also noticed that several players are very superstitious and I have certainly drawn their ire before. Thank you again for taking the time to post such thorough responses. Heading to Vegas again in two days and will definitely log some more live playing time. Thanks everyone.

Quote: spikeykorean

Wow, thank you everyone for your responses. Your replies have significantly enhanced my understanding of the game. I know it can be rather painful to explain some of the basics to new players. At the same time, I feel like craps is very unique and there have been times where I have definitely felt lost. More than anything, I always get confused about "craps etiquette" and am always a little embarrassed to ask during live play as I don't want to slow up the game. I've also noticed that several players are very superstitious and I have certainly drawn their ire before. Thank you again for taking the time to post such thorough responses. Heading to Vegas again in two days and will definitely log some more live playing time. Thanks everyone.

do a google search on craps etiquette. There are a number of sites that will give you all kinds of tips on craps etiquette, so you lessen your chance for drawing ire. You can't eliminate it, because no matter how careful you are, at some point you will make a mistake with someone who is over sensitive.
I have played for years, but on the last trip I was looking to get into a game and saw a spot open on the corner (ie the hook). I hustled into place, put my chips on the rack, and looked at the table to see where they were in the point. So far I have done nothing wrong. Oh Crap. The reason the spot was open was that person was the last shooter and had sevened out. So the person on my left was the new shooter, and I had just broken the rule to never crowd the shooter. Of course he threw a 7, and I got the evil eye from everyone.
This guy likes to play quickly, and so do I, so we would have been good together on a table, but for the next two days, every time I came to a table he was on, he would leave. Apparently, he was that mad at me.
We, craps players, are a strange bunch.

Quote: spikeykorean

I've also noticed that several players are very superstitious and I have certainly drawn their ire before.

They were never a novice? F--- 'em.

Yeah, you'll find the most superstitious people in the casino around the craps table. I have a superstition too: "If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to lose".

Of course, that doesn't mean you'll win if you know what you're doing, but at least if you lose, you'll know why.

I want to thank the original poster for the questions and everyone else for the answers, as they are things I wondered but never got around to asking directly.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Do a google search on craps etiquette

IMHOP the three best sites on craps are, in no particular order, The Wizard of Odds(of course), Wikipedia, and Nextshooter.com. None of these sites tries to sell anything and the info is straight. The writing at Nextshooter is very good from a "fun to read" standpoint and I have noticed a link to the Wizard on his site.

The best craps sites are those where you are taught to win. However there is no such thing as a free lunch.
There are also other more costly websites that are run by Frank Scoblete and Jerry Parr.
Nothing of course is better for the math than The Wizards site but you already knew that.


http://axispower.proboards12.com

http://diceinstitute.proboards55.com

Quote: DeMango

The best craps sites are those where you are taught to win. However there is no such thing as a free lunch.
There are also other more costly websites that are run by Frank Scoblete and Jerry Parr.
Nothing of course is better for the math than The Wizards site but you already knew that.


http://axispower.proboards12.com

http://diceinstitute.proboards55.com

Those sites are about "dice control", are they not?
I'm pretty sure axispower is Heavy's site. I know all about him from rec.gambling.craps.
Not interested.
Cheers,
Alan Shank