Pai Gow Tiles Pop Quiz
September 12th, 2012 at 6:05:13 AM
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No fair cheating to figure this out.
Place the following three hands in order from best to worst. They are presented in no particular order:
Please put your answers (and explanation, reasoning, logic, etc.) inside [spoiler]...[/spoiler] tags.
Place the following three hands in order from best to worst. They are presented in no particular order:
| Day 7/Teen Pair | Teen 7/Gee Joon | Teen 7/Day Pair |
|---|---|---|
 (Hand 1) |
 (Hand 2) |
 (Hand 3) |
Please put your answers (and explanation, reasoning, logic, etc.) inside [spoiler]...[/spoiler] tags.
Have a nice day!
September 12th, 2012 at 6:15:19 AM
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Let me test how to do spoiler tags first:
Ok, now that I figured that out, here is my answer:
this is a spoiler
Ok, now that I figured that out, here is my answer:
Hand 2 has to be last, because I'm guessing you want as many teen/day tiles as possible, and I'm sure this is a trick question, so the obvious is probably going last. So it's between 1 and 3. I'm trying to figure out what possible trick there would be to rather have Hand 3, but I can't figure one out. So I'll just have to guess Hand 1, Hand 3, Hand 2. But I'm interested to be proven wrong.
September 12th, 2012 at 6:33:07 AM
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Quote: FinsRuleHand 2 has to be last, because I'm guessing you want as many teen/day tiles as possible, and I'm sure this is a trick question, so the obvious is probably going last. So it's between 1 and 3. I'm trying to figure out what possible trick there would be to rather have Hand 3, but I can't figure one out. So I'll just have to guess Hand 1, Hand 3, Hand 2. But I'm interested to be proven wrong.
So it is your position that, with the same low hand, you would rather have a beatable high hand than an unbeatable one?
September 12th, 2012 at 6:45:51 AM
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Quote: JBQuote: FinsRuleHand 2 has to be last, because I'm guessing you want as many teen/day tiles as possible, and I'm sure this is a trick question, so the obvious is probably going last. So it's between 1 and 3. I'm trying to figure out what possible trick there would be to rather have Hand 3, but I can't figure one out. So I'll just have to guess Hand 1, Hand 3, Hand 2. But I'm interested to be proven wrong.So it is your position that, with the same low hand, you would rather have a beatable high hand than an unbeatable one?
Yes. I'm guessing that having both teens makes it less likely that the dealer is going to have pair/wong, pair/gong, and I'm hoping that difference makes up for the fact the dealer could have gee joon. I could totally be wrong though, this was a pop quiz...
September 12th, 2012 at 6:57:29 AM
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I don't see how #2 couldn't be the best hand (both hands are higher than both the hands of the other two, and relative to #3 it has the same low set, but a higher high set). My guess is 2,1,3, but I'm generally pretty confused when I play
September 12th, 2012 at 7:01:12 AM
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I have no idea. In fact, I'm trying to figure out if hand 2 is set the best way.
There used to be a calculator where you could enter the 4 tiles and it would give you the percentages for each of the three ways to set them.
What happened to that?
Hmmm.... Is this a trick question?
There used to be a calculator where you could enter the 4 tiles and it would give you the percentages for each of the three ways to set them.
What happened to that?
I gotta assume that it is. Either that or this is a trick question.Quote:I'm trying to figure out if hand 2 is set the best way.
Hmmm.... Is this a trick question?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 12th, 2012 at 7:04:53 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearI'm trying to figure out if hand 2 is set the best way.
It is. (Gee Joon should only be split with 4+6, 5+6, or 6+6.)
Quote: DJTeddyBearThere used to be a calculator where you could enter the 4 tiles and it would give you the percentages for each of the three ways to set them.
What happened to that?
It still exists, but that would be the "No fair cheating" that I was referring to.
I will post the correct answer later today.
September 12th, 2012 at 7:18:11 AM
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Quote: FinsRuleLet me test how to do spoiler tags first:
this is a spoiler
Ok, now that I figured that out, here is my answer:Hand 2 has to be last, because I'm guessing you want as many teen/day tiles as possible, and I'm sure this is a trick question, so the obvious is probably going last. So it's between 1 and 3. I'm trying to figure out what possible trick there would be to rather have Hand 3, but I can't figure one out. So I'll just have to guess Hand 1, Hand 3, Hand 2. But I'm interested to be proven wrong.
I'm changing my answer.
Hand 1 and Hand 3 are the exact same hand. Each has a pair that cannot be copied or beaten because the teen/day is in the low. Since it's either teen or day in the low with the other not being able to beaten, only copied by the one remaining tile, the hands are exactly the same.
So the question is, is Hand 1/3 better than 2? My answer is still yes, because the fact that only one teen/day tile remains makes up for the fact that gee joon can beat either pair.
Official Answer: Hand 1/Hand 3 (TIE) beats Hand 2.
EDIT & P.S.: I'm not sure if any house ways treat teen/day differently. This answer assumes they don't.
So the question is, is Hand 1/3 better than 2? My answer is still yes, because the fact that only one teen/day tile remains makes up for the fact that gee joon can beat either pair.
Official Answer: Hand 1/Hand 3 (TIE) beats Hand 2.
EDIT & P.S.: I'm not sure if any house ways treat teen/day differently. This answer assumes they don't.
September 12th, 2012 at 7:30:21 AM
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2,3,1
September 12th, 2012 at 8:05:20 AM
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OK. Here's my answer, along with my reasoning.
FYI:
There is little difference between Day 7 and Teen 7. Both are easily beaten, therefore, you look only at the bottom tiles.
Gee Joon is ranked higher than either pair, and the teen pair is ranked higher than the day pair.
Therefore, 2, 1, 3.
Gee Joon is ranked higher than either pair, and the teen pair is ranked higher than the day pair.
Therefore, 2, 1, 3.
FYI:
My point was I couldn't find it.Quote: DJTeddyBearThere used to be a calculator where you could enter the 4 tiles and it would give you the percentages for each of the three ways to set them.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
September 12th, 2012 at 8:40:37 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearMy point was I couldn't find it.
From the Wizard of Odds home page, locate the "Game Calculators" section and click on Pai Gow Tiles, which takes you here.
Since the correct answer has already been posted...
Hands 1 and 3 are exactly tied, and both of them are better than hand 2.
It seems baffling at first that if you have Teen 7 in the low hand, you're better off having the beatable high hand of paired Day than the unbeatable Gee Joon, but it is about 1.1% better.
The reason why boils down (at least in part) to two scenarios:
1) If the dealer has a pair that they don't split (4s, 6s, 10s, 11s), it is better for them to have a Gee in their low hand than a 12, specifically if their fourth tile is a 7, 8, or 9. Gee+4, Gee+6, Gee+10, Gee+11 result in the same outcome as 12+4, 12+6, 12+10, and 12+11. Gee+5 and 12+5 have the same outcome if the dealer is banking.
2) If you have the Day pair and the dealer has Gee Joon, they will split it with 4+6, 5+6, or 6+6. Splitting it with 5+6 or 6+6 still results in a push, but splitting it with 4+6 results in a win for you.
All of these things outweigh the benefit of having the unbeatable high hand.
It seems baffling at first that if you have Teen 7 in the low hand, you're better off having the beatable high hand of paired Day than the unbeatable Gee Joon, but it is about 1.1% better.
The reason why boils down (at least in part) to two scenarios:
1) If the dealer has a pair that they don't split (4s, 6s, 10s, 11s), it is better for them to have a Gee in their low hand than a 12, specifically if their fourth tile is a 7, 8, or 9. Gee+4, Gee+6, Gee+10, Gee+11 result in the same outcome as 12+4, 12+6, 12+10, and 12+11. Gee+5 and 12+5 have the same outcome if the dealer is banking.
2) If you have the Day pair and the dealer has Gee Joon, they will split it with 4+6, 5+6, or 6+6. Splitting it with 5+6 or 6+6 still results in a push, but splitting it with 4+6 results in a win for you.
All of these things outweigh the benefit of having the unbeatable high hand.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:48:40 AM
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hand 2 is stronger than either of the other two, because it cannot be beaten, only pushed.
And only with a hand where the low hand is equal to or higher than High 7 (7 with teen).
Hand 1 and 3 are very closely ranked, but when you analyze the hands that can beat either of these hands,
You find that because of their composition, only gee joon is the possible high hand to beat either hand.
Because if the tile composition of either of these hands, it is also the only way a push could be attained due to the high hand.
Furthermore, when you continue to analyze the hands necessary to push or win the low hand comparison,
You find that there are the same number of hands that push or win the low hand comparison.
Therefore, these hands 1 and 3, are equal in strength.
And only with a hand where the low hand is equal to or higher than High 7 (7 with teen).
Hand 1 and 3 are very closely ranked, but when you analyze the hands that can beat either of these hands,
You find that because of their composition, only gee joon is the possible high hand to beat either hand.
Because if the tile composition of either of these hands, it is also the only way a push could be attained due to the high hand.
Furthermore, when you continue to analyze the hands necessary to push or win the low hand comparison,
You find that there are the same number of hands that push or win the low hand comparison.
Therefore, these hands 1 and 3, are equal in strength.
Edit...damn my iPad is too slow !
I was under the impression this was the player's hand..
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:15:19 AM
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JB, could you clarify your explanation a little?
I am not following it. Why would the dealer having a gee with a 7,8,9 be better?
The teen with any of these tiles would push the low hand,
Whereas the gee would lose and therefore push the entire hand with any of these....
I see your point about having the gee with a 5 or a 6 winning the low hand (five chances)
But with a teen, the low hand wins with 5,6,7,8,9. (fifteen chances)
I am not following it. Why would the dealer having a gee with a 7,8,9 be better?
The teen with any of these tiles would push the low hand,
Whereas the gee would lose and therefore push the entire hand with any of these....
I see your point about having the gee with a 5 or a 6 winning the low hand (five chances)
But with a teen, the low hand wins with 5,6,7,8,9. (fifteen chances)
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:19:30 AM
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Quote: WongBohand 2 is stronger than either of the other two, because it cannot be beaten, only pushed.
And only with a hand where the low hand is equal to or higher than High 7 (7 with teen).
Hand 1 and 3 are very closely ranked, but when you analyze the hands that can beat either of these hands,
You find that because of their composition, only gee joon is the possible high hand to beat either hand.
Because if the tile composition of either of these hands, it is also the only way a push could be attained due to the high hand.
Furthermore, when you continue to analyze the hands necessary to push or win the low hand comparison,
You find that there are the same number of hands that push or win the low hand comparison.
Therefore, these hands 1 and 3, are equal in strength.
Edit...damn my iPad is too slow !
I was under the impression this was the player's hand..
Those were the player hands.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:20:44 AM
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Quote: JBFrom the Wizard of Odds home page, locate the "Game Calculators" section and click on Pai Gow Tiles, which takes you here.
Since the correct answer has already been posted...Hands 1 and 3 are exactly tied, and both of them are better than hand 2.
It seems baffling at first that if you have Teen 7 in the low hand, you're better off having the beatable high hand of paired Day than the unbeatable Gee Joon, but it is about 1.1% better.
The reason why boils down (at least in part) to two scenarios:
1) If the dealer has a pair that they don't split (4s, 6s, 10s, 11s), it is better for them to have a Gee in their low hand than a 12, specifically if their fourth tile is a 7, 8, or 9. Gee+4, Gee+6, Gee+10, Gee+11 result in the same outcome as 12+4, 12+6, 12+10, and 12+11. Gee+5 and 12+5 have the same outcome if the dealer is banking.
2) If you have the Day pair and the dealer has Gee Joon, they will split it with 4+6, 5+6, or 6+6. Splitting it with 5+6 or 6+6 still results in a push, but splitting it with 4+6 results in a win for you.
All of these things outweigh the benefit of having the unbeatable high hand.
Honestly, I'm really not the bragging type, but I'm super excited I got the answer right. I'm actually way more excited than I should be about it.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:24:04 AM
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Quote: FinsRule
Honestly, I'm really not the bragging type, but I'm super excited I got the answer right. I'm actually way more excited than I should be about it.
Congratualtions on figuring out it was a trick question, can you explain it??
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:33:09 AM
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JB explained it perfectly, and it's better than my guess, although I still think part of my rationale should be in his answer.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:34:33 AM
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Quote: WongBoJB, could you clarify your explanation a little?
I am not following it. Why would the dealer having a gee with a 7,8,9 be better?
The teen with any of these tiles would push the low hand,
Whereas the gee would lose and therefore push the entire hand with any of these....
I see your point about having the gee with a 5 or a 6 winning the low hand (five chances)
But with a teen, the low hand wins with 5,6,7,8,9. (fifteen chances)
Let me see if I can explain it better.
Let's set some givens first:
1) You have Teen 7 (a 12 and a 5) in your low hand
2) The dealer has paired 4s, 6s, 10s, or 11s in their high hand
3) The dealer has a 7, 8, or 9 tile, plus another tile, in their low hand
Having the pair of 2s in your high hand, and the dealer having a Gee as the other tile in their low hand (making 3, 4, or 5 points, which you will beat) is better than you having Gee Joon in your high hand, and the dealer having a 2 in their low hand (making a high nine, gong, or wong, which will make you push).
September 12th, 2012 at 9:38:11 AM
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Quote: FinsRuleJB explained it perfectly, and it's better than my guess, although I still think part of my rationale should be in his answer.
I think your rationale for why hands 1 and 3 are equal was spot-on. However, the purpose of this pop quiz was more about trying to explain the seemingly peculiar result that it is better to have a beatable high hand than an unbeatable one, with the same low hand. It's mind-boggling until you understand it.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:44:05 AM
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Ok, I get it. The availability of teen and day tiles for the dealer to beat your teen 7 outweighs possession of gee joon in the high.
Sorry I was a little slow to get it, I don't have access to the tile calculator on iPad.
And I'm not home where I can look at my tiles!
I like this post, I will try my hand at devising a quiz when I have some time.
Sorry I was a little slow to get it, I don't have access to the tile calculator on iPad.
And I'm not home where I can look at my tiles!
I like this post, I will try my hand at devising a quiz when I have some time.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:51:01 AM
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Quote: JBthe purpose of this pop quiz was more about trying to explain the seemingly peculiar result that it is better to have a beatable high hand than an unbeatable one, with the same low hand.
My mistake, I thought that picking a different hand would mean the dealer would get worse tiles. But your explanation makes sense, it was more about splitting rules, which is my weak point at PGT.
September 12th, 2012 at 10:06:51 AM
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Quote: FinsRuleMy mistake, I thought that picking a different hand would mean the dealer would get worse tiles. But your explanation makes sense, it was more about splitting rules, which is my weak point at PGT.
I should clarify that I meant specifically with the tile combinations shown in the first post. For example, with H6 and 11 (Chong 7) in your low hand, it is better to have Gee Joon in your high hand than to have paired Teen or paired Day.
Pai Gow Tiles is such a fascinating game.
September 12th, 2012 at 10:11:59 AM
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Quote: JB
Pai Gow Tiles is such a fascinating game.
Agreed. And remember, friends don't let friends play "House Way"...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 12th, 2012 at 10:54:54 AM
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Quote: WongBoAgreed. And remember, friends don't let friends play "House Way"...
Seriously. I don't like the comments I sometimes get from the dealer and/or pit crew when I set a hand correctly, but it's not the same way the house would set it, and I end up pushing instead of winning, or losing instead of pushing, compared to having played the house way. The next time I get a comment about the way I set my tiles, I am armed with the response, "When you play blackjack, do you play exactly the same way the dealer does?" Or perhaps, "If the house way is so good, why do you charge a commission?"
September 12th, 2012 at 11:00:17 AM
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Conversely, when I win with/push an optimum setting,
I am always crowing how weak the House Way would have been.
I am always crowing how weak the House Way would have been.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
September 12th, 2012 at 11:11:36 AM
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I semi-gave up playing The Wizard's Pai Gow Tiles and I semi-got bored of the game. I wanted to reach the point where I could make the best possible play fifty hands in a row and I could never do it. When this would happen, I would have it revert me to House Way and it turned out, every time, that I already was playing House Way. I guess it is satisfying to know that I never played any worse than House Way, but then, it's quite possible that I never played any better than House Way, either.
I guess the latter would be good if I lived near a casino with the game. Not because I would win, but because it would be easy to get a job after getting the license, "Yeah, House Way literally is what comes naturally to me, try me for 100 hands, see if I don't play House Way exactly right!"
I guess the latter would be good if I lived near a casino with the game. Not because I would win, but because it would be easy to get a job after getting the license, "Yeah, House Way literally is what comes naturally to me, try me for 100 hands, see if I don't play House Way exactly right!"
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 12th, 2012 at 11:12:17 AM
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Quote: WongBoConversely, when I win with/push an optimum setting,
I am always crowing how weak the House Way would have been.
I had a hand at Foxwoods last month, 2-5-L8-9, which the house would of course set as 4/Gong. The dealer gave me a strange look when he opened my 7/7 and realized that I had sacrificed a Gong. He had 5/Pair, so my 7/7 pushed whereas 4/Gong (and, for that matter, 3/Wong) both would have lost.
September 12th, 2012 at 11:20:23 AM
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I realize that the calculator and optimal way reveal the strength of those types of hands.
Even so, it is sometimes hard to sacrifice the likelihood of a push for a less certain push or win.
I try to play with the highest positive expectation possible, but I have been burned a few times.
I catch myself sometimes debating playing for the push instead of going for an unlikely win.
It is hard to always play based on theoreticals rather than in the moment.
I also fight to not get caught up in any superstitious behavior,
Which can be difficult when surrounded by superstitious players
who believe in all manner of omens and numerologies...
Even so, it is sometimes hard to sacrifice the likelihood of a push for a less certain push or win.
I try to play with the highest positive expectation possible, but I have been burned a few times.
I catch myself sometimes debating playing for the push instead of going for an unlikely win.
It is hard to always play based on theoreticals rather than in the moment.
I also fight to not get caught up in any superstitious behavior,
Which can be difficult when surrounded by superstitious players
who believe in all manner of omens and numerologies...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
