Do most seasoned Craps players play the passline odds?

Yes or no?

derik999: Anecdotally a resounding YES. My guess is that at least 80% or more players start their play, whether they are shooters or not, with the PL play in order to get to the FO bet that is suppose to be the best bet in the casino with the "lowest" HA,

tuttigym

I'd agree that better players do so, or do the 'don't pass', taking the odds in either case, but it depends on whether you want to say "veteran" means "better". I sure see a lot of players who seem to have been at it a long time making a lot of sucker bets.

Quote: odiousgambit

I'd agree that better players do so, or do the 'don't pass', taking the odds in either case, but it depends on whether you want to say "veteran" means "better". I sure see a lot of players who seem to have been at it a long time making a lot of sucker bets.

I guess by veteran I mean those who have a firm grasp on the odds of the game, the different payouts, as well as a good deal of experience under their belts. Obviously the dice are the ultimate factor in the long run when it comes to winners and losers, but I'd say a veteran would be someone who knows how to minimize their losses over the long run, instead of playing a boom or bust type of strategy and losing their rear end more often than not.

I think most seasoned / veteran players play pass line odds (or don't pass) BUT there are very few who stay strictly with those bets, and many do not take full advantage of the odds. Before and after the come out, people are throwing out prop bets. After a point is established, lots of people make place bets to go along with their line bet. Rather than put full odds behind the line, you'll see people place the six and eight, or bet the hardways, diluting the best bet on the table and increasing the overall house advantage in the hopes of higher payouts. Based on postings on this site and discussions at the tables, at least some of these people understand the mathematics, but they do it anyway.

Under the definition provided, I would consider myself a seasoned pass line player. You will very rarely see me play anything but pass / come unless I am ahead and hoping that the numbers keep rolling. (Or I'm on the don't and rooting for the sevens.)

I agree. I make sure I put full odds (in AC, it's 5x) before any other bet. Then I put my Come Bet out, and place the 6 and 8.

I play quite a bit at a casino that offers 100x odds. Very rarely have I seen anyone take advantage of the 100x. It's just too much money for most people. I play PL and two $5 come bets, with $50-$100 odds on each one, and most times I have more money on the table than everyone else combined. It seems most players are playing place bets. I think they do that to get more action. Many times I've stood there for 10 minutes and never collected on my three numbers, while all the place bettors are getting paid. Not to mention the numerous times we get three numbers and then a seven.

Quote: Headlock

I play quite a bit at a casino that offers 100x odds. Very rarely have I seen anyone take advantage of the 100x. It's just too much money for most people. I play PL and two $5 come bets, with $50-$100 odds on each one, and most times I have more money on the table than everyone else combined. It seems most players are playing place bets. I think they do that to get more action. Many times I've stood there for 10 minutes and never collected on my three numbers, while all the place bettors are getting paid. Not to mention the numerous times we get three numbers and then a seven.

You cover more dice combos if you have place bets on all the numbers. Unfortunately you can end up putting out a decent chunk of change early on if you are taking the betting money from your bank roll to cover all of them. You feel kind of stupid if the shooter 7's out the roll after you've put out all your place bets. However, the dice dictate the game so a hot table is usually going to pay everybody, though some better than others, unless they are betting against the shooter.

Of course a cold table can wipe out most strategies, regardless of how experienced the player is.

Quote: Headlock

Very rarely have I seen anyone take advantage of the 100x. It's just too much money for most people. I play PL and two $5 come bets, with $50-$100 odds on each one, and most times I have more money on the table than everyone else combined.

100x is impressive on the signage, but it is indeed often too rich for most bettors. Most bettors play at 10x or 20x. Few ever go higher even though they probably should.

I usually do: A PassLine Bet and TWO ComeBets (all with shoes) OR I will do A DontPass Bet with 2or3 Don'tCome bets laying what odds I feel I can afford and remember properly.

Once when doing PL and ComeBets the dealer muttered you are all over the place (shooter kept rolling different numbers but no repeats) just then SevenOut and ALL those come bets with their odds went down!

I was once about to leave for the airport and my companion "shook my hand" (our phrase to indicate an exchange of money in the casino) so I did I guess it was 128 Across action this roll: Seven!

We all hope for humungous rolls but most tables seem to be quite choppy much of the time so I just do a few bets and then wait for them to be resolved. If the shooter has been doing well I'll wait a few extra rolls and then I'll switch to the Don'ts figuring he is "due" to seven out.
I KNOW there is no such thing as "due" to seven out! But that is still what I do.

You could always put a bet on the field instead of the come and put your winnings on whatever numbers you want.

I place six and eight almost exclusively.

The difference in HA is fairly minimal between this and PL w/odds, and it allows me to bet smaller amounts with more options (press, regress, come down).

Most players at the tribal casinos I frequent in Oregon bet PL w/ odds; few take advantage of the maximum odds offered here (usually 5X).

Quote: Headlock

I play quite a bit at a casino that offers 100x odds. Very rarely have I seen anyone take advantage of the 100x. It's just too much money for most people. I play PL and two $5 come bets, with $50-$100 odds on each one, and most times I have more money on the table than everyone else combined. It seems most players are playing place bets. I think they do that to get more action. Many times I've stood there for 10 minutes and never collected on my three numbers, while all the place bettors are getting paid. Not to mention the numerous times we get three numbers and then a seven.

I used to play pass w/two come bets, taking double odds or so. I stopped doing that for two reasons:

1) the flat part of the come bets is subject to the 1.4% house edge, so you're "paying" 21 cents instead of 7 for just the pass bet for $5. If, instead, you put that $10 on the odds behind your pass point, there is no vig on that.
2) When the shooter makes his/her point and you have a couple of come bets out there, the next comeout roll produces "mixed feelings", since the seven is a winner for the passline but costs you your come bets. In addition, there is the issue of having your come odds working or not. I finally decided I wanted the seven to have just one meaning for me.

The first reason is rational, the second emotional.

Every strategy is "chasing" a certain pattern. Many people like the idea of having more numbers that win than lose, so they make place bets exclusively or in addition to a pass bet. The pass/odds-only bettor can be frustrated by a long roll hitting every point number except his/hers. OTOH, when the seven hits, the pass player loses one bet, the place bettors all of them. The pass/odds-only bettor (myself, usually) wants the shooter to hit the point quickly and go on. Of course, it doesn't matter if the shooter hits a lot of non-point numbers, as far as the probability of eventually making the point, but it just takes more time.

A couple of weeks ago, I went out to Cache Creek Casino and played pass with single odds, increasing the odds bet on a good roll (up to 3, 4 5X). I played for a couple of hours and more than doubled my bankroll. Last Thursday I decided to play a more aggressive game, placing the inside numbers in addition to the point, so I would have four or sometimes five numbers working for me (when 4 or 10 was the point). That makes 21 or 18 ways to win, 6 to lose. Of course, if you replace the winning bets, you always lose the whole thing on the seven, so you need four or five hits to be ahead when that happens. It didn't work out well for me, as I lost half my bankroll in a couple of hours and left. However, the week before I had a very good hand, and the people placing lots of numbers won a lot more than I did. So, it works both ways.

An important principle is this: there is a "tax" on every bet on the table except the odds bets, so the more of your money you put on the odds, instead of the flat bet or place bets, the lower is your expected loss. The volatility of odds bets is only slightly higher than the place bets on the same number, so your "risk of ruin" is only slightly higher.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: MrV

I place six and eight almost exclusively.

The difference in HA is fairly minimal between this and PL w/odds, and it allows me to bet smaller amounts with more options (press, regress, come down).

Most players at the tribal casinos I frequent in Oregon bet PL w/ odds; few take advantage of the maximum odds offered here (usually 5X).

Hi, Mr. V!

How smaller amounts? If you bet $6 each on 6 and 8, and I bet $5 passline and take double odds, my average bet is $11.67 to your $12; my expected loss is 7 cents to your 18 cents. Also, in order to regress, you have to be at two or more units.

You have that flexibility on the odds bets, too, just not the flat amount.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

If you're playing in Vegas with 3-4-5x odds, the pass line and come bets are not so good.
Place bets on the 4 and 10 pay better than the flat bet plus odds, and place bets on the 5,6,8,9 pay the same as the flat bet plus odds. Plus you avoid the 1.4% HA on the pass line and come bet...is that true?

Quote: Headlock

If you're playing in Vegas with 3-4-5x odds, the pass line and come bets are not so good.
Place bets on the 4 and 10 pay better than the flat bet plus odds, and place bets on the 5,6,8,9 pay the same as the flat bet plus odds. Plus you avoid the 1.4% HA on the pass line and come bet...is that true?

Well, yes but you lose the ability to win on a come-out roll natural. You're also at a distinct disadvantage because the odds are 2-1 against you (on the 4 and 10) and the payout is only 9-5. Better to buy the 4 and 10.

For the inside numbers, you're right, it isn't much a difference but those natural winners can add up.

The house advantage on a pass line bet is 1.41%, correct? I think everyone reading except sevenshooter believes that. But assume the point is 4. You have a $10 pass line bet with $30 odds. If the point of 4 is made, the payoff is $70. If you place the 4 for $40, the payoff is $72. If you buy the 4 for $40, even better, I think the payoff is $79. So if you place the number rather than getting it through the pass line or come bet, not only does it pay better, but you avoid the 1.41% HA on the pass line or come bet.

Yes, but you are neglecting to account for what happens if your $10 line bet wins on the come out, where you have a 8-4 advantage on natural vs. craps. You don't have that opportunity to win with the place bet, which makes the line a better bet overall. You are time shifting to what happens only after the point is established.

I understand, but I can't do the math. Can someone compare placing the 4 and 10 for $40 to the $10 flat plus $30 odds?

Let's just calculate the HA for buying the 4. On average, if you buy the 4 three times you will win once and lose twice. At $40 your total bet is $120. Total returned on the win is the original $40 + the $80 win minus $2 vig = $118. Net loss is $2. To get the HA, divide the loss by the total bet = 2/120 = 1.67%. Of course, the HA is higher if you pay the vig up front on every bet or if you are placing and not buying. The very best you can hope for is that you buy the 4 for $39 and still only pay $1 vig when you win. For this, the HA is 1/117 = 0.85%.

I can't think of an easy way to show the calculation for just the pass line and FO on the 4 because you are asking to pull out just a small wedge of the possible pass line scenarios. One way is to compare the average cost of each bet. The pass line costs you 1.41% of $10, or 14 cents. When you add $30 odds on the 4, it's still 14 cents because the odds pay fairly. Even the best buy bet will cost you 0.85% of $40, or 34 cents.

seattledice, thank you. I get it now.

Quote: Headlock

The house advantage on a pass line bet is 1.41%, correct? I think everyone reading except sevenshooter believes that. But assume the point is 4. You have a $10 pass line bet with $30 odds. If the point of 4 is made, the payoff is $70. If you place the 4 for $40, the payoff is $72. If you buy the 4 for $40, even better, I think the payoff is $79. So if you place the number rather than getting it through the pass line or come bet, not only does it pay better, but you avoid the 1.41% HA on the pass line or come bet.

Any way you cut it, the HA is higher placing the 4/10 (you should buy them if your bet level is high enough) than the pass. The best conditions I have heard of, in Biloxi, are $30 buy, just $1 vig collected only on a win, which results in a 1.11% HA on 4/10, 1.33% on 5/9. Your expected loss is $.33 on 4/10, $.40 on 5/9. When betting $10 pass w/$20 odds, your expected loss is $.14. This is because only the flat bet is subject to the 1.4% HA.

It is a very common mistake to compare place/buy betting with the post-comeout pass/come, ignoring the comeout roll, where pass/come has a 33% player advantage.

When you place multiple numbers, you are paying the "tax" on every one of those bets.

The "clearest view" comes from comparing the expected losses - and the variances.
Cheers,
Alan Shank