Theguyoverthere
Theguyoverthere
Joined: Sep 4, 2011
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 7
July 25th, 2012 at 11:35:35 PM permalink
Has anyone seen this game? It's at this one casino I frequent, and I just found out that ties will actually push (instead of lose) if you have at least $5 on the "Quick Draw" bonus, which is based solely on your first four cards. I think the pay table for it is something like any pair is 1 to 1, two pair is 2 to 1, three of a kind is 3 to 1, flush is 4 to 1, straight is 5 to 1, and I don't remember the others but there are bigger bonuses for straight flushes, four of a kinds, and four of a kind suited.

Assuming you actually push ties, does that mean one could theoretically gain an advantage in this game? If you play your hands correctly and split when you're supposed to? At some point the house edge from the Quick Draw should get eliminated by your main bet, right?
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
Joined: May 5, 2010
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
July 26th, 2012 at 3:55:15 AM permalink
Quote: Theguyoverthere

Has anyone seen this game? It's at this one casino I frequent, and I just found out that ties will actually push (instead of lose) if you have at least $5 on the "Quick Draw" bonus, which is based solely on your first four cards. I think the pay table for it is something like any pair is 1 to 1, two pair is 2 to 1, three of a kind is 3 to 1, flush is 4 to 1, straight is 5 to 1, and I don't remember the others but there are bigger bonuses for straight flushes, four of a kinds, and four of a kind suited.

Assuming you actually push ties, does that mean one could theoretically gain an advantage in this game? If you play your hands correctly and split when you're supposed to? At some point the house edge from the Quick Draw should get eliminated by your main bet, right?



As far as seeing the game, yes... to my knowledge, in America, the only market that still offers it as an important part of the mix is Kansas City: Ameristar had two tables for the longest time, both which were always packed. All of the other test markets flopped miserably.

I'm not familiar with the four initial card bonus, but at first glance, it seems like a decent bet, especially if there are bigger payouts for the higher hands. I don't think the "push is a push" advantage gained offsets the bet, but I'm not a mathematician. I highly doubt it would become a player advantage game.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
  • Threads: 119
  • Posts: 3694
July 26th, 2012 at 5:55:15 AM permalink
Eventually you could get an advantage at this game.

The house way is complicated and pretty good, so it's going to be tough to get more than a couple tenths of a percent on that part with perfect strategy. So all we're talking about is splitting opportunities. I'm guessing your total advantage is going to be around 1-1.5%. So if the bonus has an edge of 7.5% (Just a guess based on most bonuses), you'll need to be betting $25-$35 a hand to break even.

I liked Texas Shootout, but hated the ties losing part (obviously). So if that game was available, I'd love to play $5 on bonus and $25 a hand, and pretty much be playing a no house edge game while earning comps.

Edit - WOO site says you split 7.25%. If ties push, that number probably goes up a slight bit.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7208
July 26th, 2012 at 9:26:32 AM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

As far as seeing the game, yes... to my knowledge, in America, the only market that still offers it as an important part of the mix is Kansas City: Ameristar had two tables for the longest time, both which were always packed. All of the other test markets flopped miserably.



Is it out of Ameristar in Council Bluffs now? Many of the Arizona casinos also offered the game when I was down there last fall. I can't figure this game's history out - every table I've ever seen has been packed, with players waiting to get on. How did it flop? Why doesn't it expand? Even within the casinos that it's placed in, why not add tables? Surely another Shootout table would do better than an empty MS Stud table at Ameristar KC...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 3579
July 26th, 2012 at 12:05:38 PM permalink
There are only 2 Casino's in Arizona that I know of that have it. Prescott (3 tables) and Payson (1 table), I think you are still better off putting more money on the main bet and less money on the side bet in the long run, even with tie being a push. Casino's don't offer bets to help you out. They offer bets to help themselves out. The more money off of the low house advantage main bet and onto the much better side bet, the better for the house.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
Joined: May 5, 2010
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
July 26th, 2012 at 8:56:57 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Is it out of Ameristar in Council Bluffs now? Many of the Arizona casinos also offered the game when I was down there last fall. I can't figure this game's history out - every table I've ever seen has been packed, with players waiting to get on. How did it flop? Why doesn't it expand? Even within the casinos that it's placed in, why not add tables? Surely another Shootout table would do better than an empty MS Stud table at Ameristar KC...



I think there were a number of reasons this game never really caught on...

1) It was one of the first Hold Em based games on the market, but it doesn't play like Hold Em at all. It plays like a weird mix of Omaha and Pineapple, both of which are much more complicated than what you see on TV. People who play it like the action and the possibility of big bonuses, but if you have never seen it, it's complicated to explain.

2) I think the distributor was some odd vendor (i.e. not Shufflemaster). Ameristar doesn't mind picking up on quirky games, and the Kansas City market responded to that. St Louis kind of did too, but they dumped it pretty quickly. Council Bluffs was one of the first (if not the first) major test of the game, and it lasted a long time... until...

3) Ameristar, the biggest supporter of the game as a brand, decided to dump tables as an important piece of the mix. They cut tables from nearly every property every 6-12 months, and I feel that trend will continue. Although they do a lot of things right, there are a lot of things they could improve upon.

4) Dealers hated to deal it. Most dealers I talked to hated dealing the game. It was very easy to get written up, since there are a LOT of mistakes that can be made at any point. I played it at Sahara, with a dealer who NEVER dealt the game and only went to an hour seminar on it. I don't think you need 2 weeks like they do in Missouri, but it's an 8-hour class to get it down. Learning the correct House Way is a bear...

So that's my basic analysis... I agree that a Shootout table would do better than an empty MS Stud table...

but don't call me Shirley ;)
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 3579
July 26th, 2012 at 9:45:47 PM permalink
I think you are on the mark on a couple of items Tiltpoul, but off on a couple too...

It is very easy to play. You get dealt 4 cards and you choose which two you want to play against the dealer in Texas Hold'em. If you have any knowledge at all of poker or video poker it takes no time at all to play. The main reasons I think it was removed from Casinos so fast is the low house advantage, low hands per hour and high frequency. With a $10 bet ($5 main bet and $5 side bet) you can get a lot of play time out of $100. The game is more suited for a casino with regulars rather than a tourist destination (Las Vegas) casino. I would compare it to Pai Gow in play for your dollar.

The game is distributed by Galaxy Gaming, Inc. They are the 2nd largest Table Games distributor in the world, although back in 2000 they were definitely not what they are now.

You are correct that it is a tough game to deal and Surveillance is all over it. It's easy to make mistakes in setting the "house way" and Surveillance gets their brownie buttons when they catch mistakes, so they tend to focus on a $5 Texas Shootout game when there is a $50 Blackjack better 6 feet away. You can't prove you deserve a job watching a good dealer deal $50 blackjack at 400 hands per hour, even though that is where the assets need to be protected. But if you can catch a wrong house way for $5 every hour you look like a hero to your boss. Put a poker dealer on it and they can generally learn and deal the game well in an hour. Put a blackjack dealer on it and it's a nightmare.

Galaxy is re-releasing the game and focusing on smaller casinos that have a high percentage of regulars. They've also re-released it with an additional side bet and a western theme. I imagine the additional side bet is to help increase the low house edge on the game. If Three Card Poker and Texas Shootout were side by side at a casino I was visiting, I would sit at Texas Shootout every time.

Zcore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 2225
July 27th, 2012 at 7:48:12 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

You are correct that it is a tough game to deal and Surveillance is all over it. It's easy to make mistakes in setting the "house way" and Surveillance gets their brownie buttons when they catch mistakes, so they tend to focus on a $5 Texas Shootout game when there is a $50 Blackjack better 6 feet away. You can't prove you deserve a job watching a good dealer deal $50 blackjack at 400 hands per hour, even though that is where the assets need to be protected. But if you can catch a wrong house way for $5 every hour you look like a hero to your boss. Put a poker dealer on it and they can generally learn and deal the game well in an hour. Put a blackjack dealer on it and it's a nightmare.Zcore13



This point and Tilt's point 4) would seem to me to be the reason it hasn't had more success. If dealer's find the game difficult to deal or hate a game, the game is done. Dealer's are the face of the game to every player....if they aren't selling it as a fun experience, it is over!
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7208
July 27th, 2012 at 7:51:39 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

This point and Tilt's point 4) would seem to me to be the reason it hasn't had more success. If dealer's find the game difficult to deal or hate a game, the game is done. Dealer's are the face of the game to every player....if they aren't selling it as a fun experience, it is over!



It seems like this could be easily overcome. The only hard part of the game is applying the house way to the dealer's hand. After that, it's all just Texas hold'em. So, install one of those boxes like you see in Pai Gow Poker that tells the dealer how to set their hand.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
  • Threads: 119
  • Posts: 3694
July 27th, 2012 at 8:13:19 AM permalink
The difficulty of the house setting way was absolutely why the game failed. At Ameristar St. Louis, it had a pretty good following. I liked playing it recreationally for a couple of hours.

  • Jump to: