senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 4th, 2012 at 8:00:10 PM permalink
Dear all,
I got a question on baccarat house edge on tie bet.
I usually travel to play in various Casinos at Poi Pet, Cambodia.

Most casinos use following baccarat rules;
- 8 decks, manual shuffle, penetrate around 85-90% of shoe
- burn out cards at the beginning of the shoe and burn one card before each turn
- No commission, B6 (pay 50%) or Punto Banco 2000 rule

I understand that the probability for above rules are;
Banker (non 6): 40.47%
Banker (6): 5.39%
Tie : 9.52%

and the house edge are;
Banker: 1.46
Player: 1.24
Tie: 14.36

That's why we count a tie bet as the worst bet. But... above 14.36 house edge is calculated from tie bet pay rate of 1 to 8.
If the tie bet pay rate is 1 to 9, which can be found somewhere, the house edge will reduce to only 4.84.

But... many casinos at Poi Pet pay for tie bet at 1 to 10....
So... i'm quite confused on probability and house edge of this tie pay rate.
If i do not understand wrong, it will turn to be player advantage of around 4%.
I do not believe that any casino will make any bet advantage to player.

I've tested always bet 1 unit on tie with 12 shoes actual records and found that it was really an advantage.
The result was:

61 bets / 4 ties = minus 17 units
62 bets / 6 ties = plus 4 units
61 bets / 8 ties = plus 27 units
64 bets / 4 ties = minus 20 units
60 bets / 11 ties = plus 61 units
63 bets / 3 ties = minus 30 units
61 bets / 9 ties = plus 38 units
63 bets / 5 ties = minus 8 units
60 bets / 5 ties = minus 5 units
62 bets / 8 ties = plus 26 units
62 bets / 6 ties = plus 4 units
63 bets / 8 ties = plus 25 units

In summary, always bet on tie for above 12 shoes was a plus of 105 units.
Tie occurred at 10.4% which was close to probability of 9.5%.

Do you have any comments or correction? Do i understand something wrong?

PS: Sorry for my bad English.
teddys
• Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
July 4th, 2012 at 8:17:48 PM permalink
Ties occur every 10.5 hands, on average. So a tie bet paying 10 to 1 would result in a player advantage of 4.57%. I doubt there is any casino in the world that offers that bet. Are you sure it's not a 10 for 1 payout?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 4th, 2012 at 8:18:51 PM permalink
I've never had the pleasure of playing Baccarat in Cambodia. What's penetration like in Poi Pet? I ask because, if you're interested in ties, they start to get countable towards the end of the shoe (although the cut card normally keeps this from being anything more than a vaguely interesting observation).

Although I'm sure that you've already seen it, the Wizard has a page here that shows an increase in positive expectation for tie bets by a factor of one thousand if penetration is increased from 90% to 98%. So, depending on how deep into the shoe they go in Poi Pet, you could have something potentially useful. Although, as that page also notes, to only bet on ties when the penetration is very deep would require one to sit through quite a few hands waiting for the shoe to go "hot". Same problem that Blackjack card counters have, only moreso. Fortunately, Baccarat is a fun game in and of itself, so you don't have to sit there not betting for 475 hands waiting for the planets to align.

It is pretty cool that they're paying out 10:1 on Ties instead of 8:1 or 9:1. Definitely something to chew on there!
Wizard
• Posts: 26732
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 4th, 2012 at 8:43:48 PM permalink
They used to pay 9 to 1 on a tie at Binion's. Bovada has always paid 9 to 1. My page on baccarat indicates the house edge under the 9 to 1 rules as 4.844% with eight decks.

Now, if I may ask you a question, do they have the game Dragon Tiger in Cambodia?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 4th, 2012 at 9:08:17 PM permalink
Quote: heather

I've never had the pleasure of playing Baccarat in Cambodia. What's penetration like in Poi Pet? I ask because, if you're interested in ties, they start to get countable towards the end of the shoe (although the cut card normally keeps this from being anything more than a vaguely interesting observation).

Although I'm sure that you've already seen it, the Wizard has a page here that shows an increase in positive expectation for tie bets by a factor of one thousand if penetration is increased from 90% to 98%. So, depending on how deep into the shoe they go in Poi Pet, you could have something potentially useful. Although, as that page also notes, to only bet on ties when the penetration is very deep would require one to sit through quite a few hands waiting for the shoe to go "hot". Same problem that Blackjack card counters have, only moreso. Fortunately, Baccarat is a fun game in and of itself, so you don't have to sit there not betting for 475 hands waiting for the planets to align.

It is pretty cool that they're paying out 10:1 on Ties instead of 8:1 or 9:1. Definitely something to chew on there!

----

Actually, i have just started visiting Cambodia Casino couple of months ago.
As i "observed", the penetrations were quite deep. Usually in play around 7 decks (or less), so it is around 85-90% penetration.
Quite opposite to Blackjack shoes which they cut shallow, remain unplay for at least 2 decks (penetrate 70%-75%).
That's why i quit card counting on blackjack.

At first, i also couldn't believe they pay at 10 to 1 for tie bet because i think casino will definitely know that tie game has probability of 9.5% (pay rate must be lower than 9.5 to 1 for house advantage), but i has already confirmed.

Yes, it will not be fun at all to only always bet on tie. How about thinking of it as a bonus (if there is advantage)? Have fun betting Banker or Player as usual while always bet on tie. Or... hire someone to bet and only check at the end of each shoe.

I will visit Poi Pet again this weekend. But i will first check for minimum tie occurence on every shoes to see at least 3 tie games and may test actual tie bet for 5-10 shoes if it's profitable.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 4th, 2012 at 9:12:27 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

They used to pay 9 to 1 on a tie at Binion's. Bovada has always paid 9 to 1. My page on baccarat indicates the house edge under the 9 to 1 rules as 4.844% with eight decks.

Now, if I may ask you a question, do they have the game Dragon Tiger in Cambodia?

Yes, there are Dragon-Tiger in some Casino, but not many. I saw it only in Golden Crown and Genting Crown. Strangly, for Dragon-Tiger, they bet with cash not casino chips. I don't know why...
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 4th, 2012 at 10:04:01 PM permalink
Quote: senee

As i "observed", the penetrations were quite deep. Usually in play around 7 decks (or less), so it is around 85-90% penetration.
Quite opposite to Blackjack shoes which they cut shallow, remain unplay for at least 2 decks (penetrate 70%-75%).

The smaller number of decks may make penetration seem greater than normal. What I'm used to seeing is an eight deck shoe with the cut card placed either 14 or 16 cards from the end. In the US, you can normally get them to deal a hand past the cut card if you're using the Macau-style scoring system, or act superstitious about it. Sometimes you can get them to show you the rest of the cards if you're curious, but I've never had luck trying to get more than one extra hand dealt out of the shoe. No idea how it is in Cambodia, but I would guess that it would be more difficult to get the dealers to do that sort of thing, Baccarat being a lot more popular in East Asia, and not as much of a high-end game where the staff are going out of their way to cater to players.

I hadn't thought about it earlier, but there might be other aspects of dealing Baccarat that are different in Poi Pet. Do they let you see the cards that get burned at the beginning, at least after the first one that determines how many will be burned? Could mess up an attempt to count if they don't.

Quote: senee

At first, i also couldn't believe they pay at 10 to 1 for tie bet because i think casino will definitely know that tie game has probability of 9.5% (pay rate must be lower than 9.5 to 1 for house advantage), but i has already confirmed.

Wow; that's amazing. Never had any interest in visiting Cambodia until now. You're absolutely right; you could always bet Tie and come out ahead even without counting. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't still be fun to try, however ....

Quote: senee

Yes, it will not be fun at all to only always bet on tie. How about thinking of it as a bonus (if there is advantage)? Have fun betting Banker or Player as usual while always bet on tie. Or... hire someone to bet and only check at the end of each shoe.

I had a system of betting in Baccarat at one point where I was betting both Banker and Tie on every hand. It worked out really well for me, but I don't remember exactly what I was doing now (could probably figure it out if I needed to, though). What's nice about betting one of the main bets along with Tie is that you can bet less than the table minimum on the tie bet.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 4th, 2012 at 11:12:12 PM permalink
Quote: heather

The smaller number of decks may make penetration seem greater than normal. What I'm used to seeing is an eight deck shoe with the cut card placed either 14 or 16 cards from the end. In the US, you can normally get them to deal a hand past the cut card if you're using the Macau-style scoring system, or act superstitious about it. Sometimes you can get them to show you the rest of the cards if you're curious, but I've never had luck trying to get more than one extra hand dealt out of the shoe. No idea how it is in Cambodia, but I would guess that it would be more difficult to get the dealers to do that sort of thing, Baccarat being a lot more popular in East Asia, and not as much of a high-end game where the staff are going out of their way to cater to players.

I hadn't thought about it earlier, but there might be other aspects of dealing Baccarat that are different in Poi Pet. Do they let you see the cards that get burned at the beginning, at least after the first one that determines how many will be burned? Could mess up an attempt to count if they don't.

In most casinos in Poi Pet, baccarat tables usually occupied 80% of tables. I usually play in a casino called Star Vegas, they have like 30 baccarat tables, 1 Casino war, 1 Pok-Daeng, 2 Tri Card Poker, 1 Caribbean Poker, and 3 Blackjack (8 Decks, HS17, No Hole Card, DD on 9-10-11, split 2 times, Early Surrender). As you can see, baccarat is also quite popular there in Cambodia.

I never see less than 8 decks baccarat in Poi Pet. If i estimate correctly, cut card always be placed around one deck. After the cards are shuffled manually and put into the shoe. The first card will be shown to determine how many cards to burn out for that shoe (burn out according to first card value). It is absolutely not possible to see burnt out card (both at the beginning and before each turn). No matter how curious i am, it is not possible to ask to see the rest cards.

Quote: heather

Wow; that's amazing. Never had any interest in visiting Cambodia until now. You're absolutely right; you could always bet Tie and come out ahead even without counting. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't still be fun to try, however ....

I had a system of betting in Baccarat at one point where I was betting both Banker and Tie on every hand. It worked out really well for me, but I don't remember exactly what I was doing now (could probably figure it out if I needed to, though). What's nice about betting one of the main bets along with Tie is that you can bet less than the table minimum on the tie bet.

I don't know, but i don't think to count card for baccarat. It will burn my brain before i gain.
You're lucky to have working bet system. No matter how i try to figure out (patterns, pascal number, balance and unbalance, cards repetition, etc), i still cannot find system that work at least 75%.
This is the first time i see light in the darkness that i may have advantage... to bet on tie.
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 5th, 2012 at 5:08:09 AM permalink
I think you're probably doing the right thing by always betting Tie and betting Player/Banker as usual at the same time. I am sure that the house understands their payouts and (if Cambodian casinos are anything like US casinos), they would probably try to move you to another game if you just sat there betting Tie without any other bets on every hand.

I would definitely try to take advantage of this situation while you can. Things could change at any time.

Quote: senee

I don't know, but i don't think to count card for baccarat. It will burn my brain before i gain.

No need to, really, with payouts like that. I just thought that counting for the Tie might be the next thing to explore. It sounds like your penetration might actually be lower than US penetration, though, but, again, no need to count for ties when the Tie bet pays better than true odds anyway. (Although I personally dislike the B6/no commission rule, it's hardly a dealbreaker here, because the unusual Tie payout makes up for it.)

Quote: senee

You're lucky to have working bet system. No matter how i try to figure out (patterns, pascal number, balance and unbalance, cards repetition, etc), i still cannot find system that work at least 75%.

If I recall correctly, I was just martingale betting Banker and Tie simultaneously starting at a 7:1 proportion and starting over if either bet paid. I could be wrong (I play differently now). If I get a chance latter I'll try doing that at an online casino and see if it feels right. The problem with online Baccarat, though, is that nobody offers a wide enough range of betting limits to really get anywhere with martingales. At real casinos in the US, I frequently see Baccarat table limits as being \$100min/\$10000 max, so you can get a pretty good spread in if your bankroll can take it.

What are minimums and maximums in Poi Pet? I'm mostly interested in how much you could hope to cover with progressive betting. Another question would be about player's clubs and comps -- do they exist there/are they any good? You could possibly factor some extra value into your bets that way.

Good luck -- definitely sounds like a fun place to play! One day I gotta go to some of these East Asian casinos where Baccarat is the most popular game. It seems to be getting harder to find here in the US, unfortunately.
Wizard
• Posts: 26732
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
July 5th, 2012 at 6:01:13 AM permalink
I tend to doubt anyone is paying 10 to 1. That would have a 4.67% player advantage. Perhaps they are paying 10 for 1.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 5th, 2012 at 7:49:26 AM permalink
It does seem too good to be true, doesn't it? But the OP said that he appreciated the distinction and had confirmed it. I just spent about an hour trying to find confirmation on my own without luck. The OP seems to know what he's talking about so I'm inclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

It doesn't look like many of the Poi Pet casinos have websites, and the few that do don't seem to list their games. There's a list with phone numbers here, if you've got Skype and speak Khmer.

NagaWorld (which the OP didn't mention playing at) gives the usual 8:1 here.

There's a picture of a Baccarat table at Crown Casino here, but I can't read the felt. It looks like the payout for ties might be printed above the 6-spot, though. I do notice that the seat numbers go strait from 3 to 5, which I like.

Not Poi Pet, but the Thansur Bokor in Phnom Penh give 8:1 here.

I might hunt around some more if I get time later. I'm really hoping that this is true.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 5th, 2012 at 7:54:33 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I tend to doubt anyone is paying 10 to 1. That would have a 4.67% player advantage. Perhaps they are paying 10 for 1.

I have just thought about baccarat house edge on tie today and posted to ask.
I also curious and doubt that strange pay rate. So, I asked my brother, he said he bet 1 chip and get back totally 11 chips. So, it was 10 to 1.

By the way, I will confirm it myself this weekend.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 5th, 2012 at 8:00:23 AM permalink
Quote: heather

It does seem too good to be true, doesn't it? But the OP said that he appreciated the distinction and had confirmed it. I just spent about an hour trying to find confirmation on my own without luck. The OP seems to know what he's talking about so I'm inclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

It doesn't look like many of the Poi Pet casinos have websites, and the few that do don't seem to list their games. There's a list with phone numbers here, if you've got Skype and speak Khmer.

NagaWorld (which the OP didn't mention playing at) gives the usual 8:1 here.

There's a picture of a Baccarat table at Crown Casino here, but I can't read the felt. It looks like the payout for ties might be printed above the 6-spot, though. I do notice that the seat numbers go strait from 3 to 5, which I like.

Not Poi Pet, but the Thansur Bokor in Phnom Penh give 8:1 here.

I might hunt around some more if I get time later. I'm really hoping that this is true.

Wait for me to re-confirm this weekend. I'll post it here no matter i'm right or wrong. Sadly, photo is prohibit in all casinos.
WongBo
• Posts: 2126
Joined: Feb 3, 2012
July 5th, 2012 at 9:18:27 AM permalink
Quote: heather

...but the Thansur Bokor in Phnom Penh give 8:1 here.

look again, it says 8 FOR 1
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 5th, 2012 at 9:25:37 AM permalink
So it does (one of the problems of using a colon like that is that I've seen it used both ways). I suppose that my point was mainly that it didn't say 10 to 1.

Edited to add: If I were offering 10 to 1 on ties, I probably wouldn't advertise the fact.
WongBo
• Posts: 2126
Joined: Feb 3, 2012
July 5th, 2012 at 9:35:23 AM permalink
i think if i found a casino offering 10 TO 1 on ties i would have to quit my job and start squeezing full time!
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
GBV
• Posts: 110
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
July 5th, 2012 at 12:02:41 PM permalink
10 to 1 games have existed because of a short-term promotional offering, procedural error, or simply because the casino has a poor understanding of the mathematics of the game. This type of thing is more common than people realise. A 4.67% edge is not actually as great as it sounds because of the very high variance relative to a game like blackjack.

A 9 to 1 game with very deep penetration would interest me more than a 10 to 1 game without. The effects of removal on the tie at baccarat are about the same as those at blackjack, the main problem being the normally usurous house edge.

If you can go beyond the effects of removal and understand the relationship between depleted ranks at deep penetration, you can make a lot of money in this situation.
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 5th, 2012 at 1:13:44 PM permalink
Quote: GBV

A 9 to 1 game with very deep penetration would interest me more than a 10 to 1 game without. The effects of removal on the tie at baccarat are about the same as those at blackjack, the main problem being the normally usurous house edge.

I was initially chomping at the bit ready to agree with you, but then I thought about it some. As I noted a page earlier in this thread (and as the Wizard has worked out here), increasing penetration from 90% to 98% results in a thousandfold increase in positive expectation on the Tie bet for card counters. But (unless I'm missing something) being able to do true count to get there would require you to see the burnt cards at the beginning of the shoe (they'll sometimes show them to you in the US if the table isn't crowded and you ask to see them, but according to the OP, you've got no chance of seeing them in Cambodia -- probably true anywhere in East Asia, at least on the main floor).

In a game where ties pay 10 to 1, regardless of penetration you can sit there betting Tie over and over and eventually come out ahead (assuming that the house lets you do it). Bonus is that you don't have to count.
teddys
• Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
July 5th, 2012 at 2:53:31 PM permalink
Quote: GBV

10 to 1 games have existed because of a short-term promotional offering, procedural error, or simply because the casino has a poor understanding of the mathematics of the game. This type of thing is more common than people realise. A 4.67% edge is not actually as great as it sounds because of the very high variance relative to a game like blackjack.

I would say it's hardly not great. It is not great if you want to hit and run, but if they will let you just sit there and bet tie all day, just bet what ever amount you are comfortable with until your bankroll increases, then continue to up your bets to table max until you eventually bankrupt the casino, they bar you, or they change the payouts, whichever comes first.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
GBV
• Posts: 110
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
July 6th, 2012 at 12:48:34 PM permalink
Quote: heather

I was initially chomping at the bit ready to agree with you, but then I thought about it some. As I noted a page earlier in this thread (and as the Wizard has worked out here), increasing penetration from 90% to 98% results in a thousandfold increase in positive expectation on the Tie bet for card counters. But (unless I'm missing something) being able to do true count to get there would require you to see the burnt cards at the beginning of the shoe (they'll sometimes show them to you in the US if the table isn't crowded and you ask to see them, but according to the OP, you've got no chance of seeing them in Cambodia -- probably true anywhere in East Asia, at least on the main floor).

In a game where ties pay 10 to 1, regardless of penetration you can sit there betting Tie over and over and eventually come out ahead (assuming that the house lets you do it). Bonus is that you don't have to count.

I should clarify what I meant here. A game that is positive expectation off-the-top has certain positive external advantages you and Teddy rightly mention.

Generally speaking I pitch discussion of baccarat advantage play at a relatively low-level, because invariably people involved in such discussion are streak/trend bettors who know very little basic math (see baccaratforums.com), or meat-and-potatoes blackjack card-counters who play with an edge but have little interest in theory. You might think that is patronizing, but I don't mean it that way, it is just meant to be a recognition of the reallity that baccarat tends to attract relatively unsophisticated gamblers. In this particular case you guys are pretty sharp so my comments were misplaced, for which I apologize.

Blackjack card-counters would tend to think that a 4.57% edge was huge because you rarely see that type of edge at blackjack. What they rarely take into consideration is that because of the payoff divisor and the high probability of a loss on each trial, you have to bet much more conservatively than you would at blackjack, eight times more so in fact, to keep ruin at bay. This is why I think such an opportunity is good not great, if the penetration is lousy.

Regarding the Wizard's chart, it doesn't really have much relevance for a 9 to 1 game. Because the house edge is MUCH lower on the tie with the 9 to 1 payoff, almost 10% lower, the ramping effect of advantage (the "thousandfold increase" you refer to) occurs at higher penetration levels.

Additionally, there is the question of what we actually mean by card-counting. The linear methods recommended by the Wizard, Griffin, Thorp et al are pretty poor at capturing tie bet advantage. Some of us who play baccarat very seriously have trained ourselves to make inferences about tie bet advantage based on perfect knowledge about the remaining cards to be dealt. For example, you can get advantages over a 100% when a significant number of ranks, *any* ranks, are depleted, something no linear system is capable of detecting. The math of advantage distrbution at deep penetration works differently for such people.

A theoretical curiousity: linear systems do better with the 9 to 1 payout than 8 to 1. This is because linear systems use the assumption of an otherwise standard deck depleted by one card. This assumption tends to break down when the deck has the type of extreme subsets you need for a tie advantage with the 8 to 1 payoff. Less extreme subsets can produce tie advantages with a 9 to 1 payoff, where linear systems are more accurate.
24Bingo
• Posts: 1348
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 6th, 2012 at 11:41:23 PM permalink
I've never understood why it's more often eight to one in the first place. The way these things are normally set up, nine to one seems more congruous...

I don't know where you found a ten to one payout, that is, they put ten times your bet next to your bet and hand them both back to you, but checking from your experiments, you seem to, and it is indeed an advantage. Hit them hard.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 7th, 2012 at 5:18:09 AM permalink
Quote: GBV

streak/trend bettors who know very little basic math (see baccaratforums.com)

It's probably been a year since I last visited Baccarat Forums, but I somehow doubt that much has changed over there in the meantime. I wanted so bad for that site to be something more than it was. I was hoping for discussion of and reports on Baccarat games at different casinos, information on side bets, gaming atmosphere, comps, tournaments, European variants, etc. Instead it is (or was, at least when I was there) system players with Java apps talking about Winning at Baccarat and Beating the Game like it was Monopoly or something. Such a disappointment. (Like when you sign up for a new player's club and get \$400 in match play and then notice that it's only good for something you have no interest in playing.)

Getting back to your post, though, while I agree with everything you're saying, I still feel like it would be simpler to just sit there betting Tie over and over again at a 10 to 1 game (again, assuming that the house would let you do it).

You make a good point regarding the Wizard's chart comparing levels of penetration, and it got me thinking about that. The argument that the chart supports is that increasing penetration from 90% to 98% can dramatically increase positive expectation. Maybe it's because I haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet this morning, but, trying to do penetration calculations in my head, I am not sure that anyone is doing only 90% penetration. Here's what I'm thinking (and again, I could be completely wrong because I'm not fully awake yet): You start with a shoe of eight decks. Top card gets burned and tells the dealers how many more cards to burn. So now we've got like 407-415 cards in the shoe. Cut card goes either 14 cards from the end or 16 cards from the end, depending on where you're playing. So now there are 400 cards or just less than that in the shoe that can be dealt before the cut card comes up (which, as previously noted, does not end the shoe).

Here's the math where I'm a little unsure of myself: Assuming that there are 410 cards left after the burn (including cards past the cut card), I feel like 90% of 410 is 369, which implies a cut card 41 cards from the end, which nobody (as far as I'm aware) does. And 98% penetration would place the cut card eight cards from the end of our 410 card shoe, which nobody does and which is just further than you can possibly hope to get the dealers to go. So (unless I'm missing something, which I might well be), I don't feel like either penetration percentage represents a real game, but that 98% is the closer of the two to what you might actually find at the tables. Again, I could be doing something wrong.

Wait, I think I might have found my problem. Is penetration calculated starting from before or after the burn? The cut card isn't placed in until afterwards if it makes a difference (which is why I was working it that way).
Hunterhill
• Posts: 2174
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July 7th, 2012 at 7:58:13 AM permalink
Heather. You have to take all the burn cards and treat them as if they were behind the cut card. so if they burn 10 cards and then cut off 14 it would be as if they cut off 24.Unless they show you the burn cards.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
heather
• Posts: 437
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July 7th, 2012 at 8:09:01 AM permalink
Ah -- makes perfect sense now. I knew I had to be missing something there. Thanks greatly!
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 8th, 2012 at 7:30:28 PM permalink
Dear All,

I have just been back from Poi Pet, Cambodia, and i have confirmed tie bet pay rate in actual location.
It was all my bad. The pay rate on tie at any casinos in Poi Pet is "8 TO 1".
It was because my inadequate experience in baccarat that made this mistake, no excuse.

Sorry to cause frustration or confusion.
There is really no casino game with long-term player advantage (except in RARE short-term promo that may pay 10 to 1 in baccarat tie bet).
buzzpaff
• Posts: 5328
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
July 8th, 2012 at 8:46:25 PM permalink
No apology needed. Thanks for having the good sense to verify your information. Stick around and enjoy the forum.
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 8th, 2012 at 8:52:18 PM permalink
Thanks for getting back to us about it. Can't blame you for trusting your brother.

Aside from that, was the Baccarat in Poi Pet fun? Did you play any other games while you were there? Seems like a kind of interesting destination.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 8th, 2012 at 10:31:33 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

No apology needed. Thanks for having the good sense to verify your information. Stick around and enjoy the forum.

Thank you.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 8th, 2012 at 11:00:51 PM permalink
Quote: heather

Thanks for getting back to us about it. Can't blame you for trusting your brother.

Aside from that, was the Baccarat in Poi Pet fun? Did you play any other games while you were there? Seems like a kind of interesting destination.

I didn't blame anyone, including my brother. It's not to excuse, but i got confused because of 3 reasons...
- I rarely play baccarat, but currently i keep score records to find if there is (are) any bet system to beat the game. (now can gain just 2 units per shoe in AVERAGE of 20 shoes, too few gain to try). This was my inexperience in the game.
- I often play Casino War, which pay 10 to 1 on tie bet.
- Tie pay rate on the table is printed beneath other pair boxes. It was not clear at all. Even hard to figure out during my confirmation.

For me, Baccarat in Poi Pet is fun but sometimes it's too crowd. There are various minimum bet tables (50, 100, 200 Thai Baht or US\$1.67, 3.33, 6.67) mixed together. VIP section is separated, i guess minimum bet there is around 500 and 1000 (US\$ 16.67 and 33.33).

Sure i do play other games, can say i play almost all games. Including Blackjack, 3 Cards Poker, Casino War, Pok Daeng, Sip Taem, Roulette, and Slot Machine. Almost gave up completely playing (European) roulette because of its too high house edge. Maybe i will give up Slot machine soon. There are also Pai Gow, Caribbean Poker, Hi-Lo, and Sic Bo which i never play.

There are 9 Casinos in Poi Pet. I recommend Star Vegas (Crowd), Holiday Palace (Quiet), Grand Diamond (Average), The Resort (Quiet), and Tropicana (Average).
I do not recommend Genting Crown and Golden Crown because they are quite... how to say... dirty. I haven't go to Holiday Poipet and another Casino i forgot its name. 99% of gamblers in Poi Pet are Thai (including me).

I will be happy to provide you further information if you are interested.
teddys
• Posts: 5529
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
July 9th, 2012 at 8:44:46 AM permalink
Quote: senee

There are 9 Casinos in Poi Pet. I recommend Star Vegas (Crowd), Holiday Palace (Quiet), Grand Diamond (Average), The Resort (Quiet), and Tropicana (Average).
I do not recommend Genting Crown and Golden Crown because they are quite... how to say... dirty. I haven't go to Holiday Poipet and another Casino i forgot its name. 99% of gamblers in Poi Pet are Thai (including me).

I will be happy to provide you further information if you are interested.

Wow, that is really interesting. Your English seems pretty good; you should ask the Wizard if you can write an article about Gambling in Poipet for his website, with photos of the outside of casinos. Are all the casinos in the area before immigration? Do they all use Thai Bhat, or American Dollars? I've heard Poipet is kind of a scammy town, at least that's what all the backpackers going from Bangkok to Siem Reap (Angkor Wat) say.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Hunterhill
• Posts: 2174
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
July 9th, 2012 at 9:02:03 AM permalink
Thanks Senee,could you explain the rules to POk Daeng and Sip taem. I have been to Poi Pet but I could not figure out those games and no one could explain it clearly.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 9th, 2012 at 6:29:01 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Wow, that is really interesting. Your English seems pretty good; you should ask the Wizard if you can write an article about Gambling in Poipet for his website, with photos of the outside of casinos. Are all the casinos in the area before immigration? Do they all use Thai Bhat, or American Dollars? I've heard Poipet is kind of a scammy town, at least that's what all the backpackers going from Bangkok to Siem Reap (Angkor Wat) say.

Actually, i have just visited Casino for the first time around 3 months ago, but it was already 12 consecutive weekend visits until now.
In Poi Pet, those Casinos are located in Cambodia's free zone. If you do not travel outside this zone, it only needs to register immigration cards at the office, no Visa is needed. They use Thai Baht. It is wise to exchange US\$ to THB in advance. I will check and compare Casinos' exchange rate later. But i guess Casinos get lower rate.

There are some cautions to take....
- pickpocket (at Cambodia side) There is a bridge (funded by the British) and some small (backpack, shoes, etc). These areas are where you should be careful of pickpocket. There is no pickpocket inside Casino. Stars in a bright night is fewer than those cameras on the ceiling inside casino.
- if you think to buy something, be sure to check or bargain the price. or go buy with Thai friend (if you have) and let him/her buy or bargain for you.
Sorry to make negative sides first. It is not happened that often, but it's always good to be careful.

In Casinos....
-Roulette: There is no American Roulette (two 0) there. Land base and electronics roulette are available. According to my experience, try to avoid 'King roulette' machine, it usually wins big streak to pay fewer ones.

-Blackjack: Be sure to check the rules. It varies. Common rules (as i experienced) are... 8 decks, no hole card, hit soft 17, early surrender, split 2 times. Most casino allow double down only on 9-10-11.

-Baccarat: Mostly no commission (B6 pay 50%). Both full and mini baccarat are mixed. Don't mess up with electronics baccarat.

-Other games are pretty the same. I noticed that most gambling rules are based on European side, not American side.

senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 9th, 2012 at 7:12:54 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Thanks Senee,could you explain the rules to POk Daeng and Sip taem. I have been to Poi Pet but I could not figure out those games and no one could explain it clearly.

I try to find playing rules for Pok-Daeng and Sip Theam, but could find only one for Pok-Daeng.
I'm not sure if this forum allow external link, so i will copy and paste it here.

---
Pok Daeng is a very simple game, sometimes your hand is lower in value than the Dealer but you still win the game. In this game, you don’t play against any other players, only against the Dealer.

Pok Daeng shall be played with one deck (52 cards) without a joker, with backs of the same color and design and one cutting card.
All suits have the same rank. The cards, from highest to lowest shall be as follows:Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 All picture cards have a numerical value of zero, while ace is always counted as 1

The main object of the game is to beat the House by possibly getting higher total point counts of the player’s hand against the dealer or with regards to the Rankings of Hand.

How to Play

The game begins by placing a wager on a specified box wherein 3 bettings must be made.

The first bet must have an equal amount like the 2nd and 3rd bettings which are all arranged vertically in the player’s betting box.
Only seated players may hold their cards and not to be held away from the table.
Player may opt to stay on 4 points (first 2 cards) and must draw on 3 points or below. Natural 9 & 8, respectively, are considered the 2 highest hands in this game and require no more additional card. For House Card, it must stay on 5 and must draw on 4.
When the Dealer’s first 2 cards totals 3 or below, Dealer has to immediately settle all hands containing Natural 9 or 8.
If the Dealer has 4 points, on its initial 2 cards, all hands including “Naturals” followed by hands with 3 cards will be settled respectively in accordance with the rules specified in Pok Daeng. When the Dealer’s initial 2 cards totals 5 or above, then final settlement will be made.

If the Dealer wins against the Player(s) or vice versa, all settlements will be made in accordance with the Pay-out Odds.

PAY-OUTS ODDS

1 Pays 1
Highest Point wins.
1 Pays 2
Two Cards “Same Suit”
Any Pair Card
Three Cards “Any Picture Card”
1 Pays 3
Any Triple Card
Three Cards “Same Suit”
RANKINGS
1. Natural “9″
2. Natural “8″
3. Same Suit “Jack, Queen, King”
4. An Triple, Highest “Ace” to Lowest “2″
5. Three Cards “Any Picture Card”
6. Three Cards “9 points”
7. Three Cards “8 points”
8. ”7 Points”
9. ”6 Points”
10. ”5 Points”
11. ”4 Points”
12. ”3 Points”
13. ”2 Points”
14. ”1 Points”
15. ”0 Point”

----

For Sip-Theam, I could not find its rules. So, i will try to explain here.

The bet starts by placing 2 equal amount of 2 boxes in front of the player. 3 cards will be drawn to each player and banker. All player cards are faced down, dealer will show 2 out of 3 cards. Players see their cards value, then put it on table.

Sip in 'Sip-Theam' means '10' (or any 0 value) and Theam means 'face value', hence cards of 10/0 face value will be counted as the highest face value. No hit, surrender is allowed. The game always play with only 3 cards.

The rank from highest to lowest is 10(0)-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 (Ace always counts as 1).

If player or dealer gets 8,9,10(0), it is qualified for the 2nd boxes. If lower, only the 1st box will be taken.
Just compare face value between player and dealer to see result.
If player win with 8 or higher face value, the dealer will pay 2 boxes. If player win with 7 or lower, only 1 box will be paid.
In opposite, if the dealer win with 8 or higher, both boxes will be taken. In case of 7 or lower, only 1 box will be taken.

I think the rule is quite simple and straight forward. By the way, in Poi Pet at least, not all Casino provide Sip-Theam. It is not as common as baccarat, etc.

I will post again if i find more useful information.
Hunterhill
• Posts: 2174
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
July 9th, 2012 at 7:39:32 PM permalink
Thanks Senee I really appreciate you posting this.I think your best bet is to play the early surrender Blackjack,you can find the strategy on Wizard of odds site.The house edge is almost nothing.They always half shoe white people but being that your thai this could be a good game for you.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
senee
• Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 4, 2012
July 10th, 2012 at 8:45:47 PM permalink
I think the posts are now quite off topics (to tie bet player advantage). So, I suppose we better start a new thread if it is not related to the original topic.
heather
• Posts: 437
Joined: Jun 12, 2011
July 11th, 2012 at 4:54:40 AM permalink
Quote: senee

I think the posts are now quite off topics (to tie bet player advantage). So, I suppose we better start a new thread if it is not related to the original topic.

Okay, I've opened one. Thanks again for bringing up such an interesting subject!