Thread Rating:

Poll

4 votes (57.14%)
1 vote (14.28%)
2 votes (28.57%)
1 vote (14.28%)
2 votes (28.57%)
1 vote (14.28%)
2 votes (28.57%)
1 vote (14.28%)
3 votes (42.85%)
1 vote (14.28%)

7 members have voted

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1454
  • Posts: 25287
Thanks for this post from:
lilredrooster
March 15th, 2022 at 7:41:54 PM permalink
I have been looking at the March Madness prop bets from Draft Kings. Many of them show a strong player advantage, using the Wong's methodology of looking at seed numbers only, in Sharp Sports Betting. Let's look at an example.

Total #1 seeds to make Final Four

Over 1.5 +120
Under 1.5 -110

In the 36 years since the tournament's inception, any given #1 seed team has made it to the Final Four with 40.97% probability.

Thus, the expected number of #1 seeds to make the final four is 4*0.4097 = 1.639.

This would seem to make the over a great bet. Using the Poisson distribution, I estimate the probability of 0 to 4 #1 seeds to make the Final Four as follows:

#1 Seeds Probability
4 0.028181
3 0.162400
2 0.350948
1 0.337069
0 0.121402
Total 1.000000


Taking the sum of 2 to 4 wins, we get a probability of 54.15%.

Getting +120 on a bet with a 54.15% chance of winning has a player advantage of 19.14%.

Next, I looked at the specific teams in the Final Four. Here they are, with the futures odds at Draft Kings and the probability of winning, after squeezing out the juice.

Team Pays Probability
Arizona 650 0.096345
Baylor 1200 0.055584
Gonzaga 300 0.180647
Kansas 850 0.076062
Total 0.408637


The lower right cell shows a probability of a #1 seed winning of 40.86%. Historically, a #1 seed wins with probability 63.89%.

I conclude that this year the #1 seeds are simply not as good as previous tournaments? I welcome all thoughts on that.

I have analyzed lots of other props, but let's get the discussion started with this one.

The question for the poll is which team do you want to win?
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
lilredrooster
lilredrooster 
Joined: May 8, 2015
  • Threads: 218
  • Posts: 5441
Thanks for this post from:
Wizard
March 16th, 2022 at 5:20:45 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard



I conclude that this year the #1 seeds are simply not as good as previous tournaments? I welcome all thoughts on that.




first, I would like to say, this was a really great post on your part

I don't think I've ever before seen a post on sports betting as interesting or informative as this one

a couple of things which I'm sure are obvious to you but may not be obvious to others


1.______concluding that the #1 seeds are not as good as other years calls for accepting DraftKing's odds as highly accurate. I doubt that very much

I believe that a bet such as this in sports betting - the various factors are so complex - that it is all but impossible to come up with true odds

2.______DraftKings is taking extra vig. - it's going to be obvious to a great many sports bettors when one side is priced at -110 the other side is typically also priced at -110, not -120. don't know why they're doing this - is there collusion amongst all the popular sportsbooks re this_____? or does DraftKings just think they are so powerful in the marketplace that they can do whatever they want and all of the sports bettors will follow along like sheep



my conclusion____________the bet is not a good one



why__? I am comparing the bet to the most common type of over/under bet which just about always requires paying less vig and has a great deal less complexity to analyze.


I have zero interest in making a bet like this unless it was just for fun with some friends. I believe it is possible to get an edge on some over/under bets while I don't believe I could figure out how to get an edge on this one


.
"believe half of what you see and none of what you hear" - Edgar Allan Poe
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
  • Threads: 84
  • Posts: 10107
March 16th, 2022 at 5:58:39 AM permalink
My only conclusion is that the #1 seeds this year are much weaker than in general. This year will be very competitive and I would not be surprised to see some seeds lower than #3 make the final four.
Order from chaos
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 231
  • Posts: 14648
March 16th, 2022 at 7:11:15 AM permalink
I've seen Arizona a few times and didn't come away impressed. I was surprised they kept such a high ranking all season.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1454
  • Posts: 25287
March 16th, 2022 at 7:33:35 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

first, I would like to say, this was a really great post on your part.
link to original post



Thank you!

Here is another bet with a perceived big player advantage. Over/under total wins by #11 seed teams.

Number Pays Probability EV
Over 3.5 100 0.242424 -0.515152
Under 3.5 -130 0.757576 0.340327


In the 36 seasons of the tournament thus far, 11 seeds have won 90 games, for an average of exactly 2.5 per year.

Using the Poisson function, the probability of 0 to 3 wins, assuming a mean of 2.5, is 75.76%. That makes laying -130 a great bet, with a 34.03% player advantage.

In case you're wondering, the 11 seeds are Virginia Tech, Michigan, Iowa State, and Notre Dame.

My question -- Is this a good bet or are the 11 seeds this year stronger than usual?
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
  • Threads: 84
  • Posts: 10107
March 16th, 2022 at 10:33:46 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard


In case you're wondering, the 11 seeds are Virginia Tech, Michigan, Iowa State, and Notre Dame.

My question -- Is this a good bet or are the 11 seeds this year stronger than usual?
link to original post



My opinion is that the 11 seeds may be a little bit stronger than average but also in general I believe there is more parity in the field this year.
Order from chaos
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
  • Threads: 114
  • Posts: 5680
March 16th, 2022 at 10:55:10 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard


In case you're wondering, the 11 seeds are Virginia Tech, Michigan, Iowa State, and Notre Dame.


You forgot Rutgers - and Rutgers and Notre Dame play each other in Dayton two days before the winner plays Alabama in San Diego.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1454
  • Posts: 25287
March 16th, 2022 at 11:37:52 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

You forgot Rutgers - and Rutgers and Notre Dame play each other in Dayton two days before the winner plays Alabama in San Diego.
link to original post



Thanks. That was more of a typo than forgetting.

I just came from the Rampart, which uses South Point lines. The only prop that wasn't some kind of futures bet was on the seed to win the whole enchilada. Here they those bets. The probabilities are based on the 36 previous seasons.

Seed Pays Probability EV
1 -150 0.638889 0.064815
2 200 0.138889 -0.583333
3 375 0.111111 -0.472222
4 900 0.027778 -0.722222
5 1200 0.000000 -1.000000
6 to 16 1000 0.083333 -0.083333


Only perceived advantage is on a #1 seed to win, but we've already covered that the #1 seeds are softer than usual this year.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” -- Carl Sagan
Monkmister1
Monkmister1
Joined: Mar 13, 2022
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 9
March 16th, 2022 at 12:47:38 PM permalink
Just saying the #1 seeds are weaker does not make it so.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 119
  • Posts: 9796
March 16th, 2022 at 1:04:40 PM permalink
Quote: Monkmister1

Just saying the #1 seeds are weaker does not make it so.
link to original post



I think if you ask any CBB expert, they would tell you the difference between the top four teams and the next eight is much smaller than most years.

I’m guessing <5 seeds 11 and higher win in the round of 64, and <2 make it to the sweet 16. I’m betting the chalk this year! Exceptions are San Francisco and Alabama.

  • Jump to: