0% Vig at the Track

Here's how to play the ponies with 0% takeout. Go to the track with your good buddy. Agree to only bet when you disagree. Bet against each other. Don't give the track a dime. You pay each other when one wins and one loses. Only allow win bets that pay less than 20 to 1 so nobody gets crushed. Agree on a maximum bet. Nobody pays when both bets lose.

This isn't close to being thread worthy.

Quote: sabre

This isn't close to being thread worthy.

Maybe.
What if it sparks a lively discussion of other ways for gamblers to gamble while removing the house's rake.
Get some buddies together for blackjack, each takes a turn as dealer for a shuffle. Split up the house winnings at the end of the session proportionately to each player's winnings. No split for losers ?

Of course you'd lose that never ending chorus of "Wheel Of Fortune". You could pipe in casino noise I guess.

Or move the whole thing to miscellaneous discussion thread.
I've seen worse threads, probably started a couple of them;-)

Quote: sabre

This isn't close to being thread worthy.

Why is that? This is exactly what big sports bettors should be doing with each other when they are on different sides of a game. I always wondered why there wasn't a site that hosted something like this for just a small fee or %1 vig. I'm sure its illegal somehow but if the money is guaranteed and guys could save the vig it would be used.

P.S. We thought the haircut kids thread was useless but apparently it turned out to be a good thread. Unfortunately for him he got voted off the island but the rest of the survivors enjoyed the island.

You can do this one better - don't even go to the track. Watch the races on TVG or HRTV.

Do non-tracks (e.g. OTB (I assume those still exist), or California satellite wagering locations) charge any sort of admission? You could always go there as well.

As for the vig, technically you still pay the vig when you collect on your winning bets, assuming you're using the track payoffs.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Maybe.
What if it sparks a lively discussion of other ways for gamblers to gamble while removing the house's rake.
Get some buddies together for blackjack, each takes a turn as dealer for a shuffle. Split up the house winnings at the end of the session proportionately to each player's winnings. No split for losers ?

Of course you'd lose that never ending chorus of "Wheel Of Fortune". You could pipe in casino noise I guess.

Or move the whole thing to miscellaneous discussion thread.
I've seen worse threads, probably started a couple of them;-)

Home poker games are a good example. Why pay the the rake if you don't have to?

Quote: AxelWolf

Why is that? This is exactly what big sports bettors should be doing with each other when they are on different sides of a game. I always wondered why there wasn't a site that hosted something like this for just a small fee or %1 vig. I'm sure its illegal somehow but if the money is guaranteed and guys could save the vig it would be used.

Matchbook

Quote: TomG

Matchbook

I haven heard of it, i will have to look at it when I get home. Can you give us some highlights?

Quote: AxelWolf

Why is that? This is exactly what big sports bettors should be doing with each other when they are on different sides of a game. I always wondered why there wasn't a site that hosted something like this for just a small fee or %1 vig. I'm sure its illegal somehow but if the money is guaranteed and guys could save the vig it would be used.

P.S. We thought the haircut kids thread was useless but apparently it turned out to be a good thread. Unfortunately for him he got voted off the island but the rest of the survivors enjoyed the island.

guys I know that wager good money like to talk about betting exchanges

http://www.bettingexchanges.org/

http://en.learning.betfair.com/app/answers/videos-home/a_id/11089/v/9

Quote: lilredrooster

Here's how to play the ponies with 0% takeout. Go to the track with your good buddy. Agree to only bet when you disagree. Bet against each other. Don't give the track a dime. You pay each other when one wins and one loses. Only allow win bets that pay less than 20 to 1 so nobody gets crushed. Agree on a maximum bet. Nobody pays when both bets lose.

Its a good idea with a large group of bettors.
On the flip side
All the big bettors go with some kind of online betting exchange against each other
The already struggling horse industry may close more tracks due to lack of business.

Quote: coilman

guys I know that wager good money like to talk about betting exchanges

http://www.bettingexchanges.org/

http://en.learning.betfair.com/app/answers/videos-home/a_id/11089/v/9

As far as I know Betfair does not accept U.S. customers. It is a great concept. Incredible hypocrisy re gambling laws as to what is legal and what isn't.

Horse racing is a high overhead gambling sport.
If there is some online betting exchange, the horsemen need to get a cut
Otherwise we will see tracks dying left and right.

Quote: terapined

Horse racing is a high overhead gambling sport.
If there is some online betting exchange, the horsemen need to get a cut
Otherwise we will see tracks dying left and right.

I believe the tracks that are well managed are not in danger of going out of business. Simulcasting and internet betting saved them. Actually, right now the pools at the larger tracks are gigantic if you compare them to what they were before simulcasting and after lotteries and casinos ate them up. The ones that are mismanaged and dying I don't shed a tear for. The track I used to go to, Laurel, in the summer required you to pay for VIP seating to get air conditioning. The common area was close to 100 degrees. They also had some really nasty tellers. Nobody could naturally be that nasty. I think they must have had nastiness training.

Quote: lilredrooster

I believe the tracks that are well managed are not in danger of going out of business. Simulcasting and internet betting saved them. Actually, right now the pools at the larger tracks are gigantic if you compare them to what they were before simulcasting and after lotteries and casinos ate them up. The ones that are mismanaged and dying I don't shed a tear for. The track I used to go to, Laurel, in the summer required you to pay for VIP seating to get air conditioning. The common area was close to 100 degrees.

I used to go to Laurel, last time there probably 15 years ago.
Pretty dumpy. They really let it go
Some parts so empty.
Horse racing been really struggling in MD
I'm so old school, I loved going to Freestate raceway to bet on harness racing in Laurel. That place got bull dozed :-(

Now live near Tampa Bay Downs, a well managed track but with a real short season.

Quote: terapined

Horse racing is a high overhead gambling sport.
If there is some online betting exchange, the horsemen need to get a cut
Otherwise we will see tracks dying left and right.

Almost every place that has horse racing today in North America is open only because of SLOTS

http://articles.philly.com/2015-10-24/news/67679995_1_horse-racing-industry-horse-racing-drug-testing#UCAOKfgzw7gW3vux.99

I live in Ontario and they got them way back in 1998 I believe it was...Windsor was the first place to get them because the Ontario Government had put a nice big casino downtown about 3 miles from the track. Yes the casino knew how to treat gamblers....the racetracks did not as they were there first and well thats all there was to it. well the tracks got 10 % off the slots located at the track the horsemen got 10% Towards purses off those same slots...the bills got paid and the government took the rest. Over 13 years in Ontario the horsemen and tracks SPLIT $4 BILLION ++ dollars off the slots.... and still they said F U horse bettors we got slots we don't need you anymore.... well myself and a few other bettors tried to warn them from way early on that this slot deal wasn't going to last and while they had it they best be GROWING THE BUSINESS...more FU dumb punters is what we heard from them. fast forward to 2012 the Ontario government drops the biggest bomb on harness racing in Ontario that it could... the SARP deal was to stop in 2013..(SARP slots at racetrack program) for the horsemen they would no longer get 10% off the slots...0% was there new take..... the tracks got reduced % to host the slots...tracks were like cool with that....and punters well we didn't matter the whole time. You want to see a group of people get upset.... too bad some people thinking down the road didnt tell them what would happen sooner or later like me a few others on the Canadian Harness racing website HARNESSDRIVER.com did.

RIght now PENN STATE is on the verge of shutting down all racetracks.... the state is broke and can not justify paying hundreds of millions off slots to race tracks while the handle since 2003 has dropped 71% . WHY has it dropped 71% well them having the HIGHEST TAKEOUTS on betting anywhere in the NORTH AMERICA might be the one reason....they even INCREASED takeouts after slots came to racetracks there...... and the horsemen were like cool with that. Now the state wants the horsemen to pay for all the drug testing and judging off their part of the slots $10,000,000 or so and the horsemen are dragging their feet over it....did they not learn a thing from what happened in Ontario???

here is a list of tracks and takeouts you dont want to bet tracks where the takeout is 30% on tris like in PENN STATE


http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/2015Sortable.html

Horse racing today is a game about chemists not horses...its all about being like Lance Armstrong ahead of the testing. I used to book my vacation time to allow me to travel to the biggest harness races around....now I hardly ever watch them let alone wager on them..... matter of fact I opened up my betting acount on Saturday to watch the BREEDERS CUP races and they said since I had not meet the wagering requirements the past 30 days I needed to pay $5 to watch the races Saturday..... guess what I did? It sure wasn't Paying them $5

The mismanagement of the racing industry is the stuff of legends. Business schools should use racetracks as an example of what not to do if you want to retain customers. I used to go to the track and I first had to pay for parking. Then I had to pay admission. Then I had to pay for a program. If I wanted to buy the Daily Racing Form I still had to buy a program because the DRF did not have the horse numbers and sometimes they didn't match the post positions. Then I had to pay for VIP seating if I wanted heat or air conditioning. Then I had to put up with nasty tellers. ATMs that charged 5% to make a withdrawal. 17% takeout on win, place or show and 25% takeout or more on the exotics. Bad food. Watered down drinks. The list goes on and on. Only a racetrack could come up with the idea of buying pencils without erasers, then cutting the pencils in half so you had two pencils and then selling each pencil for $1.50.

When simulcasting first started and there was a coupled entry such as the 1 and 1a if the 1a was scratched the tv screens didn't show the scratch. All the screen showed was the odds on the 1. It would scroll the info on the bottom of the screen maybe once every 5 minutes - it was easy to miss. More than once I liked the 1a and made my bet and found out too late to cancel that the 1a had been scratched. I hate to admit that I was ever that much of a sucker but more than once I bet on a horse that wasn't even running in the race. It took the racetrack geniuses about 7 years to fix that.

Quote: lilredrooster

... I used to go to the track and I first had to pay for parking. Then I had to pay admission. Then I had to pay for a program. If I wanted to buy the Daily Racing Form I still had to buy a program because the DRF did not have the horse numbers and sometimes they didn't match the post positions. Then I had to pay for VIP seating if I wanted heat or air conditioning. Then I had to put up with nasty tellers. ...

This is exactly what I remember about it. I swear once at the harness racing track near DC [Rosecroft] two guys were collecting money from you as soon as you drove in, then you paid for parking too when you got to the lot. I still wonder if they were unofficial and just mob guys keeping the money. That did it for me, though, I vowed never to go back and didn't.

Regarding the OP, first thing that comes to mind is the thing about each bet being -EV, so it doesn't matter how you combine them, you only make it worse. Arbitrage is a different thing, but I don't follow how what was described is automatically arbitrage.

Quote: odiousgambit

Regarding the OP, first thing that comes to mind is the thing about each bet being -EV, so it doesn't matter how you combine them, you only make it worse. Arbitrage is a different thing, but I don't follow how what was described is automatically arbitrage.

It's not true that it's minus EV. But it's not arbitrage either where you have an advantage. You pay nothing when both bets lose. How could it be minus EV when the track gets zero? In the long run the winner would be whoever is the best handicapper - you or your buddy. When you win and get paid you get paid what the track pays which means you lose the takeout. But when you lose you pay less than if there were no takeout.

Quote: lilredrooster

It's not true that it's minus EV. But it's not arbitrage either where you have an advantage. You pay nothing when both bets lose. How could it be minus EV when the track gets zero? In the long run the winner would be whoever is the best handicapper - you or your buddy. When you win and get paid you get paid what the track pays which means you lose the takeout. But when you lose you pay less than if there were no takeout.

Pre-simulcasting in Ontario I remember a group of us would assembly each Friday and Saturday night at the local watering hole to watch the REPLAYS from the Meadowlands at 12 midnight . The group was usually 6 to 10 of us and everybody would pick a horse each race..toss a $1 into the pot person who got the winner took the pot.... horse wins that nobody picked the pot carried over to the next race. Hell even the bartender would get involved nightly. It was a good half hour of racing twice a week from the MECA of harness racing in the late 80s to early 90s

I recently got a generous payout on a quarter horse race at Indiana Grand on a horse that was obviously faster than its rivals. The money looked soft. The Aqueduct crowd would have surely bet a horse like this down to odds on. The quarter horses are a trip. No pacing or rating at all. Accelerator all the way down the whole way. I will take a look at racing at Will Rogers coming up. It's fun.

Undefeated Mohaymen is the future book favorite for the Kentucky Derby in this online link at 6-1. He just won the Holy Bull stakes and will probably run in the Fountain of Youth stakes on Feb. 27. In the Holy Bull the pace was slow and he earned an unimpressive speed figure of 95. But he showed a powerful closing kick and did the last 2.5 furlongs in under 30 seconds. If he doesn't get injured or get beaten he likely will be the KY Derby favorite in which case it's unlikely that you could better than 5/2 on him. If he does not run in the KY Derby there is no refund on a future book wager.

http://www.allhorseracing.ag/kentuckyderby-odds