Lando
Lando
Joined: Aug 14, 2014
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July 17th, 2015 at 8:17:26 AM permalink
I've been wondering about this a long time, having heard a few examples and being told by friends. Does honor really exist and "your word" or only inasmuch as you practice it practically speaking. The point I'm getting at is that the only real thing a bookie has is your past performance or verified trust. That is, if he lets you go on credit unchecked (due to bad odds, tilt, or whatever) isn't that just as much on him as it is the player? The whole honoring your debts is a weird idea to me, because no professional bookie is credit, really, it's post up which means you have the money to gamble by definition. The check is that you don't pay up, you don't get action --- you're cut off. That's the real issue. No idiot is gonna ruin a smooth running business over a few stiffs when all the odds are in his favor and he has many more guys that'll lose willingly over a long period of time.

Just wondering what you guys think about "honor" in an illegal scenario in which the player is also taken advantage of, commonly.
bigfoot66
bigfoot66
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
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July 17th, 2015 at 8:32:16 AM permalink
You point out that people pay their illegal gambling debts not because of honor but because they cannot gamble long term unless they pay. Some people are honorable, others are motivated by the desire to stay in the action. I'm not sure that this is all that different from other areas of life. If you borrowed $1000 on a credit card and then did not pay the bill the credit card people would not file a lawsuit over such a small amount of money. So why don't more people do it? You could probably get away with dine and dashing at certain restaurants, why don't more people do it?
Vote for Nobody 2020!
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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July 17th, 2015 at 8:42:14 AM permalink
Much will depend on various things. First you have to consider the idea of a "bookie." Your "bookie" may just be a "runner" and if you do not pay, HE pays. Even a street bookie will end up eating a loss either directly in a layoff or just that you did not pay and balance his action.

No bookie is going to give an unknown major credit. First you have to be introduced somehow. If a friend of yours vouches for you then he has to either make up for you being a deadbeat or at the least his standing is going to fall. Now, if you pay a few losses at some point the friend will say, "he was good before" and it will not be on him. But welch on your first loss and you screw your friend.

But lets assume you are on your own. You have a small loss and the bookie may eat it, but spread the word that you are a deadbeat. If it is a bigger loss, expect to be hassled. Might even get a few broken bones. Your debt may be sold to a loan shark who is better at collections than running a wire room. At this point you have real problems. People can and do get their heads broken if they are in debt to the wrong bookie. A car dealer local to me had his house blown up over it. The cops "found" him in the backyard six months later.

Honor? Depends on the player. Many players work with the local runner and to welch brings many problems so they pay. It is said John Gotti paid his losses not out of honor but because for a boss to be a welch looked bad plus he wanted to keep his action. OTOH Henry Hill and Tony Spilotro just told the bookies to drop dead if they lost.

To quote Frank Rosenthal, "they don't need DNB, they size you up."
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
1BB
1BB
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
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July 17th, 2015 at 8:47:49 AM permalink
Quote: Lando

I've been wondering about this a long time, having heard a few examples and being told by friends. Does honor really exist and "your word" or only inasmuch as you practice it practically speaking. The point I'm getting at is that the only real thing a bookie has is your past performance or verified trust. That is, if he lets you go on credit unchecked (due to bad odds, tilt, or whatever) isn't that just as much on him as it is the player? The whole honoring your debts is a weird idea to me, because no professional bookie is credit, really, it's post up which means you have the money to gamble by definition. The check is that you don't pay up, you don't get action --- you're cut off. That's the real issue. No idiot is gonna ruin a smooth running business over a few stiffs when all the odds are in his favor and he has many more guys that'll lose willingly over a long period of time.

Just wondering what you guys think about "honor" in an illegal scenario in which the player is also taken advantage of, commonly.



Funny you should ask. A member here was permanently banned " for allegedly welching on a bet". That's what it says in an entry to the Suspension List on 1/27/15 next to strictlyAP'S name. Was the bet legal? Did it violate Forum Rule 8? Have other bets here violated Forum Rule 8? Did a certain person pay taxes on a weight loss bet?

A "secret administrator" conveniently materialized to ban strictlyAP and was never heard from again. Many here wonder if there really was a secret administrator. There must have been because lying can get a person banned. I don't think anyone here would lie and I'm not accusing anyone of doing so. Honor? Not paying a debt to the government or not paying a debt to the person you lost to, what's the difference?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Boz
Boz
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:19:26 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Funny you should ask. A member here was permanently banned " for allegedly welching on a bet". That's what it says in an entry to the Suspension List on 1/27/15 next to strictlyAP'S name. Was the bet legal? Did it violate Forum Rule 8? Have other bets here violated Forum Rule 8? Did a certain person pay taxes on a weight loss bet?

A "secret administrator" conveniently materialized to ban strictlyAP and was never heard from again. Many here wonder if there really was a secret administrator. There must have been because lying can get a person banned. I don't think anyone here would lie and I'm not accusing anyone of doing so. Honor? Not paying a debt to the government or not paying a debt to the person you lost to, what's the difference?




Never miss an opportunity to point out your issues with how the site is run, do you? Just like I try to point it out when I see it. But "changes are coming", right?
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:24:14 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

Never miss an opportunity to point out your issues with how the site is run, do you? Just like I try to point it out when I see it. But "changes are coming", right?


Two cases of OCD?
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
1BB
1BB
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:30:15 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

Never miss an opportunity to point out your issues with how the site is run, do you? Just like I try to point it out when I see it. But "changes are coming", right?



There's our Boz! This would be a perfect time to read my signature, Boz. Take your time and let it sink in.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:38:32 AM permalink
I absolutely believe the bet should be honored. I also believe if I make an agreement with someone and I don't believe it needs a legal contract, that persons word is just as valid as a contract.

A "friend" of mine bets with a bookie in Las Vegas. The level of trust is so great that recently the bookie got way upside down on a game and asked some of his better customers if he could have a couple of weeks to settle up. As far as I know they all agreed and everyone was paid up in about two weeks.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
tongni
tongni
Joined: Feb 27, 2013
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:48:24 AM permalink
A man's word is his bond, a gambler's doubly so. Never make agreements that you may not be able to honor, always abide by the spirit of an agreement when it ensures a fairer outcome, and ambiguous terms should be clarified beforehand.

Making an agreement you intend not to honor is a cardinal gambling sin. People who do this will never get a second chance with me.
Boz
Boz
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
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July 17th, 2015 at 9:57:59 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

There's our Boz! This would be a perfect time to read my signature, Boz. Take your time and let it sink in.



Thanks for letting me know I may be ignorant. Naturally your not calling me ignorant because that's not your game. You think you are smarter than all of us and play by the rules as you interpreted them. Even if you disagree with them and like to let everyone know that at every opportunity.

But I'm not a big fan of Ghandi anyways. Honestly I get sick of his followers calling everyday offering to lower my credit card rates if I just give them my number.

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