So looks like a 12 Game Season for Tom Brady ?
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If none of the players or other quarterback could notice it during the game and complain, then why is it such a big deal ? Thoughts ?
Cheating matters. But that's too much, though it's not like a power play; there's at least one back-up QB and the rest of the team which can play. But 4 games is enough to swing making the playoffs-non-playoffs in most years, so that decision doesn't stand alone and done, no matter how many games it lasts. As it is, if they do make the playoffs, it will likely affect their seeding at a minimum.
Quote: GWAEI have mentioned it many time and would do it if I could. I can see someone doing a class action against teams or NFL for these cheating scandals. When you bet you assume a fair game, IMO
Will get as far as the Pacquioa lawsuit
By only giving him 4 games, now, that probably gets cut to 2 games on appeal. Those will be Week 1 home vs Pittsburgh and week 2 at Buffalo. Having to play w/o Brady for more games would hurt the Patriots more, and isn't that the point of the punishment?
IMHO, the league knows that the team management/ownership is responsible, they just can't prove it. Otherwise, why would they take away draft picks from them and fine them? (Like $1,000,000 hurts them . . .)
I believe this was all done in a big backroom deal. The only ones I feel sorry for are the two equipment guys who are now out of jobs basically when they were only doing what they were told to do by Brady and/or the team. Sucks to be a fall guy!
There is no way they woke up the morning of the AFC Championship game and decided to try a different ball on a whim. They've probably been doing it for a long time.
Quote: vendman1The big unanswerable question here, Isn't if the balls were deflated below specs for the AFC championship game. It's how many other times did brady/the Patriots do this?
There is no way they woke up the morning of the AFC Championship game and decided to try a different ball on a whim. They've probably been doing it for a long time.
Did each team use the same balls, or is there a set of balls for the Pat's Offense and a different set for the visiting team's Offense ? Also, if the balls were that much different, why didn't the refs or other players notice it ?
Quote: JohnnyQDid each team use the same balls, or is there a set of balls for the Pat's Offense and a different set for the visiting team's Offense ? Also, if the balls were that much different, why didn't the refs or other players notice it ?
Yes, there is a different set of balls for each team's offense, supplied by each team. At one point, the other team did notice the Pat's ball after an interception. The fact Brady refused to cooperate with the investigation led to his conviction and punishment. Obviously he was involved, for how long it's been going on is a good question we will get the answer to once the ballboys hire the right attorney and sell their story. There remains a Hall of Fame risk for Brady not that he seems to care about any of it. It's four games without pay.
Quote: JohnnyQDid each team use the same balls, or is there a set of balls for the Pat's Offense and a different set for the visiting team's Offense ? Also, if the balls were that much different, why didn't the refs or other players notice it ?
Each team prepares it's own set of footballs (12) for use by their offense only. Then they are inspected by the ref. It was after that inspection that the Pats deflated the balls to Mr. Brady's liking. The other team(s) did notice. The Colts noticed it during their regular season game against NE in Nov. The Ravens noticed it in the playoff game the week before(allegedly). The Colts GM sent an email to the leagues head of officials asking for them to look out for under inflated balls before the AFC championship game even started. Over the years there have been rumors about this throughout the league.
Because the lower pressure was detected. The balls were changed at halftime of the game. Interestingly, Brady played better after the balls were inflated properly in the second half. That's sort of the shame of the thing. Brady doesn't need to do this to win. But I suspect it's psychological; he "thinks" he plays better with a little less air in the ball. So he tells the equipment guys he like the balls softer. Then this happens.
Maybe the most damning evidence that they have been doing this for a while is the astronomical low rate at which Patriots players have been fumbling the ball the last few seasons. Lots of football players will tell you a slightly deflated ball is easier to hold on to ergo:
http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007
This is an organization that pushes the boundaries of the rules all the time.
Quote: JohnnyQDid each team use the same balls, or is there a set of balls for the Pat's Offense and a different set for the visiting team's Offense ? Also, if the balls were that much different, why didn't the refs or other players notice it ?
The rule is each team supplies their own balls and they get to supply 12 of them for each game, and in outdoor games they get to supply 12 backup balls as well. As for why the rule is that way, Tom Brady and the Patriots were front and center in getting this approved by the league. The rule as it stands now came into effect for the 2006 season. The ref checks the balls 2 hours and 15 minutes before kickoff to make sure each ball meets league standards for PSI and other things.
IMO, while I think this punishment is fair baseball around what is standard across the world of sports for tampering with the ball, the league really needed to bring the hammer here. There is nothing more sacred to the game of football than the ball itself. If you can't watch a game, knowing the ball hasn't been tampered with by one team, you can't trust the results of the game as being authentic, and if you can't do that, is there really anything that separates the NFL from WWE in terms of authenticity.
Quote: Gabes22, you can't trust the results of the game as being authentic, and if you can't do that, is there really anything that separates the NFL from WWE in terms of authenticity.
Which is why Pete Rose was banned for life. He was betting against his own team while he was the manager of it, making decisions etc.. The facts bore out that he sometimes bet on the Reds and other times(games) he didn't. Same same as betting against in anyone with half a brain's mind. Hold out your best reliever because of a big bet tomorrow etc.. It's called integrity of the game as well as your word, authentic.
Quote: NokTangAt one point, the other team did notice the Pat's ball after an interception.
This is completely false.
According to Sports Illustrated only one ball was 2 pounds under. "Several" were a pound and "several" others were right at or barely under the proper inflation. I had to laugh when I read that because of the extreme lack of detail in their investigation.
Truthfully I think "Spy Gate" has more to do with this penalty than this one episode. Sure, he may have been doing this for years. But there really is no proof.
Cheating is cheating. Something should be done. And this isn't the first time for this team.
But I really think this will end up in arbitration and the penalty will be reduced. I guess time will tell.
Jesse "The Body" Ventura
Quote: texasplumrI'm not a fan nor am I a hater. It seems to me though that the Pats went on to score 28 unanswered points in the second half, after the balls were re inflated. So if they gave back the 17 first half points, they still won by a large margin.
According to Sports Illustrated only one ball was 2 pounds under. "Several" were a pound and "several" others were right at or barely under the proper inflation. I had to laugh when I read that because of the extreme lack of detail in their investigation.
Truthfully I think "Spy Gate" has more to do with this penalty than this one episode. Sure, he may have been doing this for years. But there really is no proof.
Cheating is cheating. Something should be done. And this isn't the first time for this team.
But I really think this will end up in arbitration and the penalty will be reduced. I guess time will tell.
One of the major things helping a team who deflates the ball is holding onto the ball. Not only passing it, catching it, but holding onto it once you have it. The Pats BY FAR, have the lowest fumble total in the NFL over the 9 year period between 2006-2014 (when the rules were implemented), the gap between them and the 31st team is greater than the gap between the team with the most fumbles and the team with the second fewest)
Quote: Gabes22One of the major things helping a team who deflates the ball is holding onto the ball. Not only passing it, catching it, but holding onto it once you have it. The Pats BY FAR, have the lowest fumble total in the NFL over the 9 year period between 2006-2014 (when the rules were implemented), the gap between them and the 31st team is greater than the gap between the team with the most fumbles and the team with the second fewest)
Equipment managers are supplied by the home team. So if your theory is true, there should be a huge difference between their fumble records during home games and away games. What does the data show?
Quote: surrender88sIf the Patriots sustained a long term advantage over every opponent, for the better part of a decade, it is not enough.
If the Patriots murdered JFK, it's also not enough.
But did they murder JFK?
Quote: sabreIf the Patriots murdered JFK, it's also not enough.
But did they murder JFK?
There is no evidence linking the Patriots to the JFK assassination.
There are significant statistics that could reflect foul play, as well as text records going back a few years, as well as proof that this happened in the conference finals this year.
One question is very worth asking and investigating.
Quote: mcallister3200It's interesting that we're pretty much split between too much and not enough with no votes for just right so far, although gabes has pretty much said probably just right. Likely unintentionally biased opinions based on your thoughts about the franchise in the first place. So perhaps they got it right even though few people seem to agree with it.
Everyone saying too much = patsies fans
Everyone saying not enough = the rest of the world
At the very least they should have their Super Bowl win stricken from the record.
Quote: JohnnyQSo looks like a 12 Game Season for Tom Brady ?
Yahoo Article
If none of the players or other quarterback could notice it during the game and complain, then why is it such a big deal ? Thoughts ?
Each team provides the footballs that their team uses on offense -so the other team's quarterback never gets to play with Tom Brady's balls.
Quote: sabreEquipment managers are supplied by the home team. So if your theory is true, there should be a huge difference between their fumble records during home games and away games. What does the data show?
Again, this is wrong. In the NFL. each team provides 12 footballs that their team uses on offense -regardless of whether they are the home team or the away team. If the Patriots staff deflated the Patriots footballs for each game, then the Patriots always had footballs that were easier to grip and throw (or hang onto while running) than the other team.
Brady should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.
Quote: gordonm888Again, this is wrong. In the NFL. each team provides 12 footballs that their team uses on offense -regardless of whether they are the home team or the away team. If the Patriots staff deflated the Patriots footballs for each game, then the Patriots always had footballs that were easier to grip and throw (or hang onto while running) than the other team.
Brady should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.
Yes, each team provides 12 balls. The referee checks and approves these balls. Then an individual designated by THE HOME TEAM oversees the transfer of these 24 balls (12 per team) from the officials locker room to the field.
The accusation is that the patriots deflate the balls after the official measures and approves them AT PATRIOTS HOME GAMES, since the DEFLATOR is only at THE PATRIOTS HOME GAMES. So how were they doing that at visiting teams? Answer, they couldn't.
Therefore, any fumble data arguments must take into account only the home games where THE DEFLATOR was present.
That is of course, unless you are suggesting that they are sending in people through the ventilation shafts during games on the road.
Quote: sabreYes, each team provides 12 balls. The referee checks and approves these balls. Then an individual designated by THE HOME TEAM oversees the transfer of these 24 balls (12 per team) from the officials locker room to the field.
The accusation is that the patriots deflate the balls after the official measures and approves them AT PATRIOTS HOME GAMES, since the DEFLATOR is only at THE PATRIOTS HOME GAMES. So how were they doing that at visiting teams? Answer, they couldn't.
Therefore, any fumble data arguments must take into account only the home games where THE DEFLATOR was present.
That is of course, unless you are suggesting that they are sending in people through the ventilation shafts during games on the road.
Absolute nonsense. The Patriots were caught red-handed doing this at the Super Bowl which was an "away" game. The person who did this at the Super Bowl was not the person who transfers the footballs to the field -it was a Patriots employee that snuck into the ref's locker room while the refs were checking things out on the field, brought the balls into a bathroom and deflated them and then returned them before the refs got back. And each team travels with as many supporting staff as they wish to -usually exceeding 5 dozen staff people. There were no rules to restrict the Patriots from taking along the guys who sneak into the referees room and deflate the balls.
The real proof will come next year -if the Patriots "fumbles per game" increases significantly over the supernaturally low value that it has been at since 2006.
Quote: gordonm888Absolute nonsense. The Patriots were caught red-handed doing this at the Super Bowl which was an "away" game.
No. I didn't bother reading anything else you wrote since this alone demonstrates you shouldn't have an opinion on the matter.
Quote: sabreThis is completely false.
It is what was said during the first few days of the matter. Someone noticed, why else would the matter have been pursued? I read the interception part I think regarding the Colts in a game earlier in the season. I'll look it up for grins, not to make you look bad and foolish. Cheers mate.
Quote: sabreThis is completely false.
Odd...it took me one search and up popped the story.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/06/ryan-grigson-complained-to-nfl-about-patriots-footballs-both-before-and-during-afc-championship-game/
Any holes in this ?
There is also, as others have pointed out, a leadership/cultural issue here where the low level EQ guys felt it was OK to do this. That culture is the responsibility of all the management and coaches.
Quote: JohnnyQIt would seem like an under-inflated ball would travel a shorter distance when it is kicked / punted. But it also might bounce less when it hits the ground, which (at least theoretically) might make a punted ball less likely to bounce into the endzone. Maybe there is a "sweet spot" on inflation for punting distance, too little pressure and too much pressure would both decrease distance (?).
There is also, as others have pointed out, a leadership/cultural issue here where the low level EQ guys felt it was OK to do this. That culture is the responsibility of all the management and coaches.
Balls that are to be kicked and punted are different than the 12 that the team supplies. These balls are supplied from the league from my understanding and are what are generally referred to as "K" balls.
Quote: NokTangWhich is why Pete Rose was banned for life. He was betting against his own team while he was the manager of it, making decisions etc..
Interesting. I wasn't aware there was any evidence he bet against his own team. Can you cite a source?
Quote: EdCollinsInteresting. I wasn't aware there was any evidence he bet against his own team. Can you cite a source?
He never bet against his own team. What you could argue however is in a game today that he didn't bet on, he could have saved some pieces for a game tomorrow which he has or is betting on. For instance, he might keep the starting pitcher in an inning or two longer to not burn up the bullpen, or save this particular pitcher for the next game or rest a key player as a recovery day today so he will be fresh for the game you have money on.
Quote: Gabes22Quote: EdCollinsInteresting. I wasn't aware there was any evidence he bet against his own team. Can you cite a source?
He never bet against his own team. What you could argue however is in a game today that he didn't bet on, he could have saved some pieces for a game tomorrow which he has or is betting on. For instance, he might keep the starting pitcher in an inning or two longer to not burn up the bullpen, or save this particular pitcher for the next game or rest a key player as a recovery day today so he will be fresh for the game you have money on.
Exactly...which while not proven to have occurred(as far as I know), the integrity of today's game is in question. It's all in the "Dowd" report and why in many minds why he was banned for life. I might add, they have phone records from the Red's clubhouse to the bookie, phone calls made by Mr. Rose. He wasn't exactly careful about it all. (this before cell phones I guess)
He was also involved in wheeling a pick six at a horse track some place. I'm not sure if this during his stint as a manager, but it was an indication he hadn't quit gambling so sort of makes the case he's in need of professional help, not induction into the Hall of Fame.
Good. 4 more opportunities for someone to cripple him for life. Anything short of Joe Theisman will be a disappointment.
Quote: FaceGood. 4 more opportunities for someone to cripple him for life. Anything short of Joe Theisman will be a disappointment.
You sure sound like a winner.
Quote: AyecarumbaHow does a federal judge have standing on a personnel matter in a private corporation? Shouldn't this be a union/employer arbitrator's decision?
Reading the decision, it seems to me that since the NFL has a defined rule and a defined punishment for the offense, that the NFL couldn't use the "Conduct Detrimental to the League" clause as that is meant to cover what isn't specifically covered in the CBA. The judge did nothing to rule on the guilt or innocence of Tom Brady, but whether or not the league over-stepped their bound, which IMO is the right call despite my rooting interests
Nap, simple contract law.Quote: AyecarumbaHow does a federal judge have standing on a personnel matter in a private corporation? Shouldn't this be a union/employer arbitrator's decision?
Quote: Gabes22Reading the decision, it seems to me that since the NFL has a defined rule and a defined punishment for the offense, that the NFL couldn't use the "Conduct Detrimental to the League" clause as that is meant to cover what isn't specifically covered in the CBA. The judge did nothing to rule on the guilt or innocence of Tom Brady, but whether or not the league over-stepped their bound, which IMO is the right call despite my rooting interests
Kind of surprised it goes to a judge. You would think there was a binding arbitration clause in the master contract.
Glad he is back, hope he shreds the Steelers D next week.
