Sports changing odds question

I had a debate with several family members a few weeks back and we couldn't come to a conclusion.. maybe someone here can shine some light on this..

In sports/racing betting, I'm fully aware that the odds are ever changing. I was wondering, if I make a wager on a team or on a horse... does my bet "lock in" the odds at that second, or will it only pay what the odds are when the close the bets..

Basically, if I were to go to vegas or any other sports betting place and bet on a longshot horse (or say longshot football team) and put down $100 on a 500:1 bet. Later on in the year, 1-2 months later, the odds change drastically and the team/horse now becomes the favorite and now pays 2:1 on bets instead of the 500:1. would I be looking at a 200 payout or a 50,000 payout? I'm wondering if it's better to get in early before odds change, or if I should wait til last minute to place the bet to know what I'm looking at payout wise.

This is all theoretical, I haven't made any sports bets...yet.

Horse/dog bets are typically pari-mutuel, meaning the payout will change based on the odds.

Other bets such as sports are typically paid at whatever the odds were when the bet was booked.

Sportsbook bets have locked-in odds from the time of bet. The odds on your ticket are the odds you will get, no matter what.

Pari-mutual bets at tracks or race books are different. Final odds will be based on the final state of the wagering pool. If you bet in the pari-mutuel system, odds will never be printed on your ticket.

Sports yes, you get 500:1, the bet you make is locked in until resolution (barring unusual situations). Horse racing is parimutual (the term you're looking for) meaning that the odds change depending on what else has been bet on. Parimutuel systems are when, essentially, the organizers take all the money bet, take out a chunk (I forget what's normal, isn't it 20%?) then redistribute the rest.

Quote: ajemeister

I had a debate with several family members a few weeks back and we couldn't come to a conclusion.. maybe someone here can shine some light on this..

In sports/racing betting, I'm fully aware that the odds are ever changing. I was wondering, if I make a wager on a team or on a horse... does my bet "lock in" the odds at that second, or will it only pay what the odds are when the close the bets..

Basically, if I were to go to vegas or any other sports betting place and bet on a longshot horse (or say longshot football team) and put down $100 on a 500:1 bet. Later on in the year, 1-2 months later, the odds change drastically and the team/horse now becomes the favorite and now pays 2:1 on bets instead of the 500:1. would I be looking at a 200 payout or a 50,000 payout? I'm wondering if it's better to get in early before odds change, or if I should wait til last minute to place the bet to know what I'm looking at payout wise.

This is all theoretical, I haven't made any sports bets...yet.

Most bets are fixed odds. A bet with a sportsbook is locked in at the odds you get when you make the bet.

Race tracks are parimutuel though. That means that all the bets are pooled, the track takes their (ridiculously high) take, and what's left is paid out to the winners. The odds that you see are simply what the bet would pay, at that exact moment, if betting were to close at that time.

I'm not sure how horse bets made at sportsbooks work. I believe that they are fixed, since the casino does not take part in the parimutuel pool at the track, but I could be wrong about that.

Quote: ajemeister

I had a debate with several family members a few weeks back and we couldn't come to a conclusion.. maybe someone here can shine some light on this..

In sports/racing betting, I'm fully aware that the odds are ever changing. I was wondering, if I make a wager on a team or on a horse... does my bet "lock in" the odds at that second, or will it only pay what the odds are when the close the bets..

Basically, if I were to go to vegas or any other sports betting place and bet on a longshot horse (or say longshot football team) and put down $100 on a 500:1 bet. Later on in the year, 1-2 months later, the odds change drastically and the team/horse now becomes the favorite and now pays 2:1 on bets instead of the 500:1. would I be looking at a 200 payout or a 50,000 payout? I'm wondering if it's better to get in early before odds change, or if I should wait til last minute to place the bet to know what I'm looking at payout wise.

This is all theoretical, I haven't made any sports bets...yet.

Pari-mutual wagering, which encompasses most horse racing and dog racing pays based on the final odds at the bell. With most sports betting (at least that I know of), you get the odds locked in at the time you place the wager.

ok perfect. Thanks everyone! Is anyone here familiar with any of the vegas sportsbetting places on the strip? If my memory serves me right I saw one at the MGM last time I was there.. Do you know if most places will have any type of "floor people" there to assist those who don't know much about sports betting and help to understand the type of bet you'd wish to make? I'm a big fan of longshot bets and throwing down a $20 would likely solidify another trip to vegas if it won :)

Just about every casino has a sports book. There usually aren't floor people but you should be able to ask one of the "cashiers" for help (as long as it's not too busy, otherwise they may get pretty aggravated and not help you.)

For a simple long-shot bet, there should be a 3-4 digit number next to the bet, and you just tell the cashier "I want 1234 for $20" They type it in, you hand over the money, they hand you ticket, important: you verify the ticket is correct, and you're done. If it hits, just walk up to the cashier and hand them the ticket. They pop it into the machine to verify it's a winner and calculate the payout, then hand you the cash.

Quote: ajemeister

ok perfect. Thanks everyone! Is anyone here familiar with any of the vegas sportsbetting places on the strip? If my memory serves me right I saw one at the MGM last time I was there.. Do you know if most places will have any type of "floor people" there to assist those who don't know much about sports betting and help to understand the type of bet you'd wish to make? I'm a big fan of longshot bets and throwing down a $20 would likely solidify another trip to vegas if it won :)

Pretty much every casino has a sportsbook.

You can always ask questions, but, since sports betting can be a time-sensitive thing, it's better not to tie up the people at the window if there are people waiting behind you.

You will probably get a better answer here, anyway. What do you want to know?

perfect. thanks! :)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

You can always ask questions, but, since sports betting can be a time-sensitive thing, it's better not to tie up the people at the window if there are people waiting behind you.

this was my big fear of why I never asked anyone at the place, I was too intimidated and I didn't want people yelling at me (and I thought craps was intimidating.. this was on a whole new level..). I also see a lot of people sitting by TV's with newspaper looking books in their hands, are these some sort of daily reports or merely fixed odds you can wager on?

They are likely horse/dog books that tells past stats about all the horses/dogs in each race.

Basically, you want to look up at the board. As you said the odds can change, so the odds you get will be the ones currently on the board.

Since you like long shots, let's say that you decide to bet on the Jaguars winning. Since you are betting on them winning the game, that's called a "money line" bet. Since they suck, you will probably get some good odds... maybe +500 or something, depending on who they are playing.

So, look up at the board, and find the Jaguars game. Every team will have a number beside it (all the way on the left). When you bet on a game at the window, you should always bet by number, so that the person at the window doesn't need to look it up.

On the board, the first column (on the left) will be the team number. Beside that will be the team name. Next will be the point spread -- only beside the team that is favored. Next the money line (the odds on betting the team to win). Then finally the total for over/under. So it might look something like:



So this means that you can bet whether or not the Bengals will win by at least 10.5 pts. You can bet either side of this, winning $1 or every $1.10 you wager. That is the point spread.

Or you can bet the Jaguars to win outright at +500 (winning $5 for every $1 you wager). That is the long shot bet.

Or, you can bet on the Bengals to win outright. This only pays $1 for every $6.50 you wager.

Or, finally, you can bet on whether there will be more or less than 42 total points in the game, again, winning $1.10 for every $1 wagered.

So, since you want the long shot, you might say (to the person at the window) "#783, Jaguars, Money Line, for $20". Give them your $20. Be sure to specify "money line", otherwise they will think that you want to bet against the spread. Your ticket should say something like:

Money Line
NFL
#783 Jaguars +500
$20 wagered
to win $100
max total payout $120

(it might be in some other order but all that should be somewhere on the ticket) That means that if you win, you get your $20 back plus an additional $100 for $120 total. In the unlikely event that there is a tie you will just get your $20 back.

Check your ticket BEFORE you leave the window. If you said something wrong and it's not the bet you want, they can void the ticket and write you a new one. Once you wander off, the bet is final.

If you really like the long shot, just wait until the super bowl and bet that there will be a safety. Easy money!!! :)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Basically, you want to look up at the board. As you said the odds can change, so the odds you get will be the ones currently on the board.

Since you like long shots, let's say that you decide to bet on the Jaguars winning. Since you are betting on them winning the game, that's called a "money line" bet. Since they suck, you will probably get some good odds... maybe +500 or something, depending on who they are playing.

So, look up at the board, and find the Jaguars game. Every team will have a number beside it (all the way on the left). When you bet on a game at the window, you should always bet by number, so that the person at the window doesn't need to look it up.

On the board, the first column (on the left) will be the team number. Beside that will be the team name. Next will be the point spread -- only beside the team that is favored. Next the money line (the odds on betting the team to win). Then finally the total for over/under. So it might look something like:

#783  Jaguars         +500
#784  Bengals  -10.5  -650      42

So this means that you can bet whether or not the Bengals will win by at least 10.5 pts. You can bet either side of this, winning $1 or every $1.10 you wager. That is the point spread.

Or you can bet the Jaguars to win outright at +500 (winning $5 for every $1 you wager). That is the long shot bet.

Or, you can bet on the Bengals to win outright. This only pays $1 for every $6.50 you wager.

Or, finally, you can bet on whether there will be more or less than 42 total points in the game, again, winning $1.10 for every $1 wagered.

So, since you want the long shot, you might say (to the person at the window) "#783, Jaguars, Money Line, for $20". Give them your $20. Be sure to specify "money line", otherwise they will think that you want to bet against the spread. Your ticket should say something like:

Money Line
NFL
#783 Jaguars +500
$20 wagered
to win $100
max total payout $120

(it might be in some other order but all that should be somewhere on the ticket) That means that if you win, you get your $20 back plus an additional $100 for $120 total. In the unlikely event that there is a tie you will just get your $20 back.

Check your ticket BEFORE you leave the window. If you said something wrong and it's not the bet you want, they can void the ticket and write you a new one. Once you wander off, the bet is final.

If you really like the long shot, just wait until the super bowl and bet that there will be a safety. Easy money!!! :)

ok cool! Hey man I really appreciate you going into all this detail for me

I don't think this was touched on, but the people at the sportsbook are probably the least helpful employees in the whole casino. I know about everything I need to know, but if I have a question, they treat me like crap.

In general people working the counters in a lot of sportsbooks do have quite a reputation for being notoriously surly and unhelpful, enough so that stories and jokes about snarling "ticket writers" at the counters are nearly as common as crooked taxi driver tales. Also, they may have no idea what is going on; it isn't usually part of their job description to do anything but punch the keyboard to print the ticket the way the bettor calls it. If you can I'd suggest going into a book for the first time on a weekday morning, at least half an hour after opening to avoid the mini-rush of people cashing tickets from the day before, but well before any major events would be starting, and asking a supervisor to give a newbie some help with questions when they have a few minutes. A supervisor behind the counter of a sportsbook will tend to have plenty of time for that sort of thing on a Tuesday at something like ten in the morning while doing nothing much other than watching ESPN reruns in a mostly empty book.

Parimutual race bets made in a Nevada racebook are immediately gathered up and transmitted across the country through an electronic hub to become part of the track's pools just as if you were making them while physically standing at that track where the race is being held. The site originating the wager gets a share of what the track keeps in proportion to the wagers they generate, and since the amount paid to winning wagers is determined by distributing the amount left by losing wagers (like in a pot in a poker game) payouts to winning tickets are determined by the final distribution of money in the relevant on-track betting pool as of the moment the gate opens and betting is closed.

You can watch the money flow into those pools and the resulting odds movement and final payouts in real time here:

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/totedb/tracks.cgi

or here:

http://www1.drf.com/tote/Home/drftoteboard.jsp

And if you made a big enough wager at a Las Vegas racebook you'd be able to see your chunk of money hit the pool and move the numbers at the track. Which would usually be a foolish thing to do, partly because then you'd be diminishing your own payout per dollar risked by betting that much, kind of like overbetting the pot in a no-limit poker game.

These parimutual race wagers are not "house banked" meaning none of the casino's (or for that matter the track's) money is involved in paying winning tickets. Both act as a stakeholder facilitating people betting against each other, again like in a poker game. The amount of "takeout" from the pool is determined by the jurisdiction in which the track operates, not by the racebook or by the Nevada Gaming Control Board, and it varies quite a bit not only among the host tracks and their local governing bodies, but also often varies a lot by what kind of wager it is. To give you some idea, for example for a "straight wager" to win, place, or show on one horse in a single race taking place at tracks in California the takeout will be 15.43%. But for the most extreme of lottery ticket style wagers involving the very slim chance of correctly picking multi-horse and multi-race outcomes such as the "Pick-6" (picking winners of six specified consecutive races) or "Superfecta" (first four finishers in exact order) the drunken degenerate sucker, ah, make that race-themed parlay card payout, will have a takeout of 23.68% from that same track, which I guess still compares favorably to buying lottery tickets. It seems the sort of folks who want to dream that they'll get rich for a dollar don't notice that kind of thing, whatever kind of game it is. There are some racing related propositions like future wagers for some major events that are not parimutual, and these are done just like sports bets, but they are a small part of the business.

Sports bets are "house banked" meaning you are betting directly against the casino, and as others have said they nearly always have fixed odds set as of the moment the ticket is issued, they pay winners from their money and they set and adjust their fixed odds lines to try to ensure that they book more money from losers than they pay to winners. The odds you got locked in on the Enormous State University Fighting Hamsters to cover the spread against the Ginormous Institute of Cosmetology & Wastewater Treatment Science's Mighty Headlice are likely to be a lot different between the ticket you bought Wednesday night and the one you got Thursday morning after the star quarterback for ESU's Hamsters was suspended for setting fire to kittens and pitchforking puppies instead of attending remedial arithmetic tutoring. So tough beans for you if the additional new information makes the odds on your ticket look lousy, it will not be refunded, you are stuck with that. Or lucky for you if you knew about that quarterback's puppy/kitten fetish thing before the news broke, because your ticket against the Hamsters still pays what it says at the time it was printed.

Something you can do to help things go smoothly at the window for sports bets is to learn to call your bet by the reference number that is used to identify that wager on the odds board and the printed sheets next to the name in the betting lines they display, like saying "I'd like $100 on #915" rather than "I wanna bet the Royals to beat the Tigers." And always, always, always, take a moment to check your tickets before leaving the window to be sure you bought what you thought you did, because they don't have to cancel and refund them later and almost certainly won't if that fixed odds line for a sports event has moved to another number.

Aha, I see Mr. Choice did a better & quicker job explaining some of that stuff while I was typing.

Quote: FinsRule

I don't think this was touched on, but the people at the sportsbook are probably the least helpful employees in the whole casino. I know about everything I need to know, but if I have a question, they treat me like crap.

No, you are mistaken. They are treating you normally, because they hate everybody equally. And they are doing you a favor, because any "answers" you get at the window of a Las Vegas sportsbook are almost always wrong. And I have a few friends and a bunch of acquaintances in my social circle who work in that business, so I'm sugar-coating that nicely so my car doesn't get keyed later this week.

In fairness, they do have to deal with a lot of thieving scumbags, angry lunatics, and assorted vacationing douchebags puking on themselves.

Knowing exactly what you want and how to call it before you go to the window is a really good idea.

Equally good is not to be standing there making decisions at the window right before a time sensitive event is going off. Understand that most sports betting is nearly worthless, and something that only exists in most casinos as an amenity like having a piano player in the lobby or a fountain out front. The parimutual wagering that goes on continuously through the day is extremely time sensitive, and that's what pays the bills to keep the lights on in most places. If a sign says something like "race wagers only" or "Diamond and Seven Stars Only" or "Reserved for...." there might be some kind of reason for it, and it is a good idea to notice that. When I use to use live ticket writers more often for wagering in a few books that didn't have IPTs (individual player terminals) available, I had advance permission and encouragement from the people running those books to just physically yank people away from the window if I was in danger of getting shut out, and there are times when I've done exactly that. On average, sports fans do seem to be reading and directions challenged.

Quote: DrawingDead

Aha, I see Mr. Choice did a better & quicker job explaining some of that stuff while I was typing.

Holy crap, how long were you typing for? :)

But, I didn't know the answer to the horse race question (I didn't know that the casinos took part in the parimutuel pool). I don't bet on horses....

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Holy crap, how long were you typing for? :)

But, I didn't know the answer to the horse race question (I didn't know that the casinos took part in the parimutuel pool). I don't bet on horses....

I guess I answered without seeing there was a second page. Or, I am getting old. Take your pick. I'll go with "both" at -120. Then get me away from the window.

Here's a story for you. It is something I saw and happened to write about in-passing on another discussion site on Kentucky Derby day, and here's a brief account of it that was published by the Paulick Report and the Louisville Courier-Journal a few days after the event:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/triple-crown/taking-a-plunge-huge-last-minute-derby-wager-drops-odds-on-candy-boy/

Quote:

...<SNIP>...

The cause of the sudden drop was “a very large bet,” according to Churchill Downs spokesman, John Asher. Asher told the Louisville Courier-Journal that the wager was placed off-site, just as the horses were being loaded into the gate.

“As for details — where it came from, how much it was — I know it was large,” Asher told the Courier-Journal. “I’ve heard the number one million tossed around, but I’m not sure.

...<SNIP>...