Up to $ 1000 Riviera Slot Loss Rebate
Quote: WizardI did the promo today. First, some rule additions:
1. No $2-$25 video poker.
2. No electronic table games.
3. No 3- and 5-play video poker.
However, this is not a big inconvenience. Personally I played a $25 2-coin Double Diamond game in the high-limit room. As expected, I blew the $1000 quickly.
My first installment of free play was then given to me without argument at the cage. That $500 I played on $1 8-5 Bonus Poker and had $380 left by the time I was done. I can redeem the second half after May 3.
I still highly recommend this promotion. Do it while it lasts.
wait.. so you lost $1000 and so far only gained back $380 on the 1st $500. you still lost $120 and on track to lose $240 on $1000?
woulnt you have lost less $ just playing 9/6 JoB at another casino?
Quote: 100xOddswait.. so you lost $1000 and so far only gained back $380 on the 1st $500. you still lost $120 and on track to lose $240 on $1000?
woulnt you have lost less $ just playing 9/6 JoB at another casino?
Yes but to get the big reward, you gotta take risks. Something I've personally never been able to get myself to do!!
Remember he also had/has the potential for a $4000 Royal Flush playing off the $1000 free play.
So now it makes sense to me. But then the question becomes: am I right?
Say the initial slot machine has a house edge of 20% - horrible, but just an example. That makes the EV for the first $1000 equal to $800 (-$200). Probably a little less because you will likely put some amount more than $1000 through on your way down to a $1000 loss, as Wizard noted. If you hit, great, if not they give you $1000 in free play. You put that through, say, a $1 9/6 Jacks or Better VP machine which has an EV of $995.40, Your theoretical loss on the free play is $4.60, making your total EV for the promotion is $795.40.
Of course, nothing is certain. You're gambling. The PRNG fairy might be passed out drunk under the bar.
Remember, $1000 comes out of your pocket but you get to play $2000 through their machines. In this example, the first $1000 has a 20% HE, the second $1000 has a .46% HE.
(According to www.vpfree2.com, the Riviera does not have $1 9/6 JoB. But according to rudeboyoi, they do.)
Quote: rudeboyoialso $1 9/6 JoB at the area of machines by the entrance to the pool that looks out of place for running through the free slot play portion.
Anyway, that's my amateur evaluation. Corrections graciously solicited.
Quote: 100xOddswait.. so you lost $1000 and so far only gained back $380 on the 1st $500. you still lost $120 and on track to lose $240 on $1000?
woulnt you have lost less $ just playing 9/6 JoB at another casino?
Well, my wife would certainly agree with you looking at it that way.
Let's look at this way. A casino offer a bet on the toss of a fair coin. If you pick the side correctly the bet pays 100 to 1. The bet is limited to once per person. You make the bet, and lose. Were you right to make the bet?
For the answer, see my tagline.
Quote: QuadDeucesHow many coins was the jackpot on the $25x2 Double Diamond you were playing, Wizard?
The jackpot pays 2,500 coins, which would have been $62,500.
If my wife saves me any more money on 50% off sales, I may have to file bankruptcy.
Quote: QuadDeucesIn my lizard brain, one way to think about it is adding the EV of the initial $1000 loss to the EV of playing the free play through.
Say the initial slot machine has a house edge of 20% - horrible, but just an example. That makes the EV for the first $1000 equal to $800 (-$200). Probably a little less because you will likely put some amount more than $1000 through on your way down to a $1000 loss, as Wizard noted. If you hit, great, if not they give you $1000 in free play. You put that through, say, a $1 9/6 Jacks or Better VP machine which has an EV of $995.40, Your theoretical loss on the free play is $4.60, making your total EV for the promotion is $795.40.
Of course, nothing is certain. You're gambling. The PRNG fairy might be passed out drunk under the bar.
Remember, $1000 comes out of your pocket but you get to play $2000 through their machines. In this example, the first $1000 has a 20% HE, the second $1000 has a .46% HE.
(According to www.vpfree2.com, the Riviera does not have $1 9/6 JoB. But according to rudeboyoi, they do.)
Anyway, that's my amateur evaluation. Corrections graciously solicited.
if you could flip a coin for a $1000, the rebate would be worth $500 (minus the amount you have to play through on the FSP portion). reasons for why the promotion would be worth less than $500 is that you will probably wager more than $1000 and the game you are playing, the house has an edge. reasons for why its worth more than $500 is that its a high variance game with longshot payouts. imagine betting $1000 on one number in roulette and if you lose you get your money back.
and vpfree2.com is not always up to date. on 4/23 i found that $1 JoB machine. id definitely consider it hidden away since its in such an odd location.
Quote: WizardWell, my wife would certainly agree with you looking at it that way.
Let's look at this way. A casino offer a bet on the toss of a fair coin. If you pick the side correctly the bet pays 100 to 1. The bet is limited to once per person. You make the bet, and lose. Were you right to make the bet?
For the answer, see my tagline.
The jackpot pays 2,500 coins, which would have been $62,500.
Wizard, I appreciate your willingness to take full advantage of the play. It is a very interesting mental exercise for me, a Flea.
I am wondering what you would have done if you had won a modest amount on the first pull of the initial $1,000? ... Say, enough to put you $100 ahead. Would you have continued to play for the max jackpot until the whole, (now) $1,100, was gone? If not, "big jackpot or bust", what amount of profit would have induced you to cash out and call it a day?
Quote: jwblueI just spoke to someone at the Riviera players club. The promotion does not include either reimbursing losses or use of free play on progressive machines.
Were those machines ever included?
I spoke to someone in the players club again. The in house progressive machines are not eligible for the promotion.
The wide area progressive machines like Wheel of Fortune are eligible.
Quote: AyecarumbaI am wondering what you would have done if you had won a modest amount on the first pull of the initial $1,000? ... Say, enough to put you $100 ahead. Would you have continued to play for the max jackpot until the whole, (now) $1,100, was gone? If not, "big jackpot or bust", what amount of profit would have induced you to cash out and call it a day?
I would have kept playing. I was hoping to get to a win of $2,000 or so, or lose the $1,000 trying.
When playing for the $1000 loss, at what point have you won enough that you should stop playing? In other words, when would the required loss to qualify for $1000 in free play become so great that the EV on that course of action becomes negative? Let's assume 95% return on the played machine.
Let me think about it a little more. The two scenarios would be I wager $1000 and walk away with $2000 or I wager $1000 and walk away with $995.40. Average the two possible outcomes and you get a little less than $500.
That close?
I wasn't trying to say you're wrong about the 9/6 JoB. It makes it a more attractive to me if they're there. Thanks for pointing it out. I probably wouldn't have found them.
Quote: QuadDeuces
I wasn't trying to say you're wrong about the 9/6 JoB. It makes it a more attractive to me if they're there. Thanks for pointing it out. I probably wouldn't have found them.
i was wrong about the 9/6 JoB :)
it only paid 2500 instead of 4000 for the royal.
also the $50/hand 3 reel slots are no longer eligible.
If you could walk in and bet the full amount on one pull it would be. The way these rebates work the vast majority of the time I'm not smart enough to even know where to begin in calculating the actual equity.
The house edge compounds and I wouldn't even know where to begin figuring that out. Nor do I know how to calculate the correct stop win.
I just do the best I can and make an educated guess by finding the highest denomination, highest variance game eligible and setting a reasonable stopwin.
So, I'm not saying that rudboyoi was wrong or I was right. Either are good choices. I feel my choice had the greater expected value, but I would need to see the PAR sheets of both games and run simulations to prove it.
Quote: WizardI would have kept playing. I was hoping to get to a win of $2,000 or so, or lose the $1,000 trying.
Is doubling your BR a realistic goal on a slot?
All my wife does is lose.
on coyote moon we ended up playing 3hands. on kitty glitter we ended up playing 3hands. on wolf run we ended up playing 6hands. on cleopatra we ended up playing about 50hands. i was the one playing wolfrun. i won $200 on one spin. when i was down to my last spin i hit a bonus round for 5 free spins and ended up hitting two payouts in that.
the reason we played multiple games instead of just playing wolfrun/coyote moon is that we locked up the other machines waiting for a handpay that took forever and there was a girl in our group who wanted to play the kitty glitter game.
Quote: rudeboyoiwent with a group of 4 to take advantage of this promotion. cashed out $2925 on wolf run ($200/hand). cashed out $1925 on coyote moon ($200/hand). cashed out $2800 on kitty glitter ($150/hand). lost $1000 on cleopatra ($45/hand). was up to $1360 at one point on cleopatra. got $460 back after running the first $500 through the not quite 9/6 JoB.
also the $50/hand 3 reel slots are no longer eligible.
Thanks for the report! Just to be very clear rudeboyoi, the amounts your group "cashed out" include the original $1000 you fronted, correct? In other words, the "win" on Wolf Run was $2925 - $1000 = $1925.
I've never hit that big a win on a slot. Was there tax withholding on any of your wins?
what we did with taxes was if there was any handpay, whoever had to fill out the WG-2 got 25% of the handpay for taxes, then the rest was split up 4 ways. so i got 25% of a $2925 handpay, another player got 25% of a $2400 handpay, and another player got 25% of a $1525 handpay. then we took out the $4000 initial investment and split the rest up 4 ways. then split the $460 we got back from the video poker 4ways. and are gonna split up whats left of the other $500 4 ways after may 3rd.
Quote: rudeboyoiyes.
what we did with taxes was if there was any handpay, whoever had to fill out the WG-2 got 25% of the handpay for taxes, then the rest was split up 4 ways. so i got 25% of a $2925 handpay, another player got 25% of a $2400 handpay, and another player got 25% of a $1525 handpay. then we took out the $4000 initial investment and split the rest up 4 ways. then split the $460 we got back from the video poker 4ways. and are gonna split up whats left of the other $500 4 ways after may 3rd.
I think this is a great way to go, except the player who took the initial loss also gets a tax "credit" against their wins. I assume there will be some compensation by this party too.
Quote: AyecarumbaI think this is a great way to go, except the player who took the initial loss also gets a tax "credit" against their wins. I assume there will be some compensation by this party too.
not sure what you mean. please elaborate.
Quote: JohnnyQI think it is worth a new thread.
Here are the Details.
At eight pages and counting... I think you were right!
Don't forget... its a rebate on LOSSES and losses are undesirable. Yet, however undesirable they are, casinos do exist solely because just about everything they offer is in their favor. Therefore losses, however undesirable they may be, are indeed a fact of life.
So having had a good bet and won it is best.
Having had a good bet and lost it is still a reasonable expectation in the real world of sober math rather than drunken dreaming.
But having had a good bet and lost it, followed by exercising a rebate deal is the best of both worlds. You still lost but it was a really good bet ... and you got your free drinks and good looking CW as well.
Probably not worth making a special trip or betting beyond your financial limits but if you happen to be in town playing at those levels of coin-in, you would hate to learn of this rebate on the airplane ride home.
How many people who value this promotion will remain loyal customers? No one knows. Yet.
Its the same thing with the 1,000x odds at craps. No one knows yet how many will actually go that high and how many will remain as loyal players, but while these promotions last you might as well keep them in mind.
Quote: rudeboyoinot sure what you mean. please elaborate.
The player who lost the $1,000 can deduct that loss against their 2012 gambling winnings to reduce their taxable gaming income. The other three "winners" will have to save their receipts from other losses to get the same benefit, or pay taxes on the win.
Quote: FleaStiffHow many people who value this promotion will remain loyal customers? No one knows. Yet.
Its the same thing with the 1,000x odds at craps. No one knows yet how many will actually go that high and how many will remain as loyal players, but while these promotions last you might as well keep them in mind.
Well, as an example, the Tropicana let me do their Loss
Rebate ( $ 200 ) last trip, even though I had been a
players club member there 4 or 5 years ago.
So, I appreciate that, and that would make me more
likely to stop back in the future, provided they have at
least some decent VP paytables.
Secondly, the Trop has really been upgraded and
remodeled nicely, so I saw that and again that would
make me more likely to come back. They got me in
the door with the promo.
I'd really be likely to go back there if they mailed
me some good room offers. I haven't seen anything
yet, but it has only been a month since I was there.
Quote: WizardThe strategy is go play as high denomination as you can. Try to blow the $1,000 as quickly as possible, or win something big trying to lose. It sounds paradoxical, but you only benefit from the promotion if you lose.
I think I will take another approach if this is still in effect
when I come back in July.
My strategy:
I'll play the VP at the $1 level.
As close to 9/6 as I can find or
possibly a good Dueces Wild
game.
If I hit a Royal, great. I'll cash out
and be a very happy camper.
If I lose my "stake", which will be
something substantially less than
$ 1000, then I'll be happy with
a "do-over" and play again.
Well actually play again twice,
1/2 and 1/2.
I think you owe JohnnyQ a beer!Quote: rudeboyoiso expecting to make about $2200 or so off this whole promotion. not too shabby.
Quote: FleaStiffI think you owe JohnnyQ a beer!
screw a beer! how about a pitcher?
Quote: rudeboyoiscrew a beer! how about a pitcher?
Sounds good to me. Right now, it looks like I'll be back
July 30th.
I just can't see how they can offer this promo. 89% keno is just not going to get me back there.
Heres a photo(sorry if it's bragging, I'm happy) : Hal Vintner is an alias.
kenopic
Time to pull my wife down there, or at least next month.
Edit: I forgot to mention that if anyone is going to do exactly as I bet, start early in the day if you have a win goal of $2000. Losing $1000 betting $4 a pop like I did would take a real long time. Also, bring earplugs. It's loud and annoying. :)
Somebody else wrote about high-denom games being restricted. I can confirm this. There are stickers on most machines in and near the high limit room that say that the machine is not eligible for the promotion. What few $5+ machines don't have the sticker I think are meant to. There were a few cases of identical machines next to each other, one with and one without the sticker. I suspect players are removing them.
I advised my brother in law, as I would advise anybody, to not take any chances, and stay away from $5+ games. There are lots of video slots with variable denominations up to 5 cents. I couldn't find any eligible machines higher. So I advised him to play a 5-cent 10-coin 40-line Coyote Moon game near the English pub. This would be a total bet of $0.05*10*40=$20 a spin. This is also a good game to choose because it has stacked wilds, resulting in a volatile game, and for this promotion volatility is good.
With this game I would set a lower win point that I previously advised for high-denom games. I had in my head about $500, but was pretty much going on feel. On the second $100 bill he hit the bonus, which re-triggered twice, including one spin with mostly wilds in the first three reels. To make a long story short, it was a good bonus paying about 40x the amount bet. After it was over he had $870 in credits, less the $200 put into the machine, for a $670 profit. I thought that was a good walking point, so advised him to cash out and take off, which he did.
So, we continue to see a deterioration in the rules. While watered down, it is still definitely worth doing. I would do so while you can, before they add further restrictions or just nix the whole thing.
Quote: WizardThere were a few cases of identical machines next to each other, one with and one without the sticker. I suspect players are removing them.
Stuff like this should be on the slot club display, not a sticker. If the girl at the booth can say, "Sorry, you played on an ineligible machine," then the information is in the system and should be displayed properly, with some level of certainty, to the player.
Quote: rudeboyoi... not sure if it changed over one day.
It evidently did.
Quote: MoosetonI recommend asking someone at the cage if you're machine/game that you have picked out is eligible.
I agree. When I was there about 6:00 pm on a Monday there was a rather long line at the cage. However, it is possible someone at the cage won't know. If I were management I would make a firm rule about what kind of additional machines are ineligible and add it to their ever-growing list of exceptions posted at the cage. In this case, I would have said "No $5 denomination slots or higher are eligible." Better yet, indicate what slots are eligible.
Quote: WizardIn this case, I would have said "No $5 denomination slots or higher are eligible." Better yet, indicate what slots are eligible.
But thats obviously part of their strategy. To make it difficult
to know what machines are eligible, and get as many people
playing the wrong machines as possible. Typical casino behavior.
Quote: rudeboyoitheres a circle of 4 $20 slots in the highlimit lounge. 2 were eligible. 2 were not. we lost on one of them and received the first $500 in fsp sunday night. does that circle of machines all have the white stickers on them now? did you ask if they were no longer eligible? or are you just assuming they are no longer eligible?
I'm not sure exactly which ones you're referring to, but I noticed on Monday a few cases of identical machines, some with stickers and some without. I played it safe and stayed away from all of them. No, I never asked any questions. Congratulations on pulling it off on a $20 game.
Initially the promotion was available to new members or members who were inactive for 24 months or longer. They have also now removed that 24 month part and it is only open to new members.
For what it's worth, Palms has a similar offer for a $500 loss rebate, however it is not open to locals. Anyone with a clark county address does not qualify.
Quote: kewljThis promotion has been altered several times now in a short time since it began. (as the fine print says they can). They have eliminated all VP play and limit the rebate to certain 'reel' type slot machines and most higher limit slots machines do not qualify making it more difficult to hit something big and more likely you will grind to a loss.
Initially the promotion was available to new members or members who were inactive for 24 months or longer. They have also now removed that 24 month part and it is only open to new members.
This is bad for us, but thanks for sharing the information. It was good while it lasted.
Quote: kewljThis promotion has been altered several times now in a short time since it began. (as the fine print says they can). They have eliminated all VP play and limit the rebate to certain 'reel' type slot machines and most higher limit slots machines do not qualify making it more difficult to hit something big and more likely you will grind to a loss.
Initially the promotion was available to new members or members who were inactive for 24 months or longer. They have also now removed that 24 month part and it is only open to new members.
For what it's worth, Palms has a similar offer for a $500 loss rebate, however it is not open to locals. Anyone with a clark county address does not qualify.
I work at the Riviera and wanted to correct some misinformation. The promotion does not exclude video poker. You can still play video poker at $1 or less. This has been the intent since the inception of the offer, however in the first few days you could play higher limit VP due to an oversight in the fine print.
The only changes that have been made are as follows:
+ Some non-VP games have been removed from the promotion. In a couple cases it has been due to limiting our exposure but in most cases it's because we have many lease/participation games on the floor in which we pay 20% of win to the manufacturer. If you lost $1000 in free slot play on these machines we'd still owe Bally or IGT $200. As we upgrade our slot system we should have more options on how to control this.
+ When we started, anyone inactive for 24 months or longer could reactivate using the Grand Guarantee. Now only reactivations from outside of Clark Country are eligible for the Grand Guarantee.
The purpose of the Grand Guarantee is to create new signups, create return visits, get people reintroduced to the property and create some buzz around the Riviera. Thus far, it's definitely working.
From reading this board it's obvious that we as operators look at things differently than those on this board. Those talking about the "big hits" we must be taking have a very adversarial view of casinos whereas we just look at each new member as a gain offset by an acquisition cost. I've run promotions that offer gold coins, gas cards, free buffets and any number of things that total up to more than what I think this will cost. I don't think I'm at liberty to disclose specific numbers, but the amount of people who've done the full $1000 is really, really low - even lower than what I anticipated from the outset. Most people fall in the $100-$200 category. The amount of people who lost $1000 in a matter of minutes - obviously trying to play to an advantage - is even smaller.
If you like this promotion or want to see more like it, the best thing I can tell you to do is come in and play and help spread the word. The more people respond, the longer the offer will continue.
I hope you can address the rule about certain machines having stickers that say the machine is ineligible. As I wrote before, there are cases where two neighboring and otherwise identical machines had one with a sticker and one without. I suspect that players are removing the stickers.
Quote: RivieraNoahI work at the Riviera and wanted to correct some misinformation. The promotion does not exclude video poker. You can still play video poker at $1 or less. This has been the intent since the inception of the offer, however in the first few days you could play higher limit VP due to an oversight in the fine print.
The only changes that have been made are as follows:
+ Some non-VP games have been removed from the promotion. In a couple cases it has been due to limiting our exposure but in most cases it's because we have many lease/participation games on the floor in which we pay 20% of win to the manufacturer. If you lost $1000 in free slot play on these machines we'd still owe Bally or IGT $200. As we upgrade our slot system we should have more options on how to control this.
+ When we started, anyone inactive for 24 months or longer could reactivate using the Grand Guarantee. Now only reactivations from outside of Clark Country are eligible for the Grand Guarantee.
The purpose of the Grand Guarantee is to create new signups, create return visits, get people reintroduced to the property and create some buzz around the Riviera. Thus far, it's definitely working.
From reading this board it's obvious that we as operators look at things differently than those on this board. Those talking about the "big hits" we must be taking have a very adversarial view of casinos whereas we just look at each new member as a gain offset by an acquisition cost. I've run promotions that offer gold coins, gas cards, free buffets and any number of things that total up to more than what I think this will cost. I don't think I'm at liberty to disclose specific numbers, but the amount of people who've done the full $1000 is really, really low - even lower than what I anticipated from the outset. Most people fall in the $100-$200 category. The amount of people who lost $1000 in a matter of minutes - obviously trying to play to an advantage - is even smaller.
If you like this promotion or want to see more like it, the best thing I can tell you to do is come in and play and help spread the word. The more people respond, the longer the offer will continue.
Wow! Finally an insightful post from a new member!! Welcome to the forum!
I'm from outside Clark County, and have not been an active member at Riviera for over 24 months (I think), so I look forward to taking advantage of a small piece of the promotion.
You should come to the Four Queens on Saturday at the Chicago Brewery Pizza Place (I'm not sure the official title) and meet us for WoVCon ][.
