New WMS Slots w/ Statistics

I've been a long time reader here, and just recently decided to sign up because I'm still on a lingering *itch* from Vegas trip last month.

I try to do all my gambling in Vegas where I know there is regulatory oversight of it all, but here in my home state of OK we have some pretty impressive Indian casinos that I SOMETIMES visit for the entertainment value since they aren't willing to have a non-tribal governing body (this is a rant in itself that I'll do at a later time).

Anyway, I visited one of the bigger ones here in the OKC metro area tonight -- Riverwind Casino -- and noticed that they have a bank of WMS 1cent machines where each game actively invites the player to look at a bar chart of the payout statistics over a certain timeframe. Out of curiosity I looked at one before putting in my remaining measly $3.50 to finish off the night and it was as I expected: A very random bar chart with a few spikes showing where the machine paid out $150+.

What is their goal here? To me this is as useful as the 'last numbers drawn' boards at the Roulette tables in Vegas. I know there are a lot of suckers out there, but even the most ignorant casino patron should realize that those statistics mean nothing, right?

Hope! Dreams! That is what is being hawked.
Besides, its a computer showing you payouts... see, you can trust the Indian casinos!
Of course its all nonsense.

I think WMS has a website listing some corporate and player information and the amounts of progressives. Might give you even more information, but a penny slot machine is usually the highest house edge there is in the casino so the flashing lights and bar charts don't really mean much. You might as well look at the lovely young women going by. Probably better looking than a bar chart and just as relevant to that Random Number Generator.

I was looking at one of those the other day. I think one of stats on that machine was something like 50,000 spins since a large payout (I don't remember what but it wasn't really that big)

How many spins per day? Per hour?
If its a Random Number Generator... how relevant is it that it paid a jackpot 50,000 spins ago or just the previous day?

I would tell you more, but I didn't study it that closely. It recorded last payout and several earlier payouts, but I looked for the biggest spike. That payout was just a couple hundred dollars, but it was the biggest one I saw. (it was either a couple hundred $ or maybe a couple hundred times bet)

It has the same relevance as the history display at a Roulette table. I.E.: None.

Bottom line: Past performance is no indication of future results.

Is it any coincidence that you see that same bottom line comment in the fine print of an investment prospectus?

Its probably just a way of generating rumors about "loose slots". Why pay a publicity agent to plant articles in the newspaper about loose slots when you can have some pretty green lights flashing on the machine and the players will give you all the free publicity you could ever want.

It's not useful in any practical way that I can think of, to making money. Except maybe if I saw one where a whole bunch of recent plays were winners -- then I might think something had happened to the machine and it was paying out too often. I might have to test that one - uh, just to make sure, you know.

The indian casinos in washington state I notice have brought in a ton of WMS machines... And you know what? I was told they do not manufacture any video poker machines, so for one, I hate WMS very deeply over that. 2. I think it demonstrates that their machines perhaps are not as... Fair as say, IGT or any of the others... And 3. My bankroll disappears WAY faster on a WMS than any other brand machine.

Idaho on the otherhand, doesn't have a single WMS machine that I can spot. My bankroll goes further, and I have more fun on less money.

I don't have any physical evidence to support my position, but does anyone have a similar opinion? That WMS machines are highly irregular in terms of their statistical probabilities and distributions?

Also, the only time I see jackpots hit on these machines are with full bet. I never have seen a jackpot win on anything less than max by anyone.

But my theory is, perhaps people doubt the machines have hit anything big... It would provide evidence that yes, infact the machines have hit, and that it is possible they can hit again. That's the only time I think a casino would want to display any charts. It has the same effect that hearing coins clinking into the trays have: winning is contagious, in that if you hear others "winning", you want to "win" too, and you will play to do it.

But as a rule, I try to avoid WMS :-)

Quote: desertair

What is their goal here? To me this is as useful as the 'last numbers drawn' boards at the Roulette tables in Vegas. I know there are a lot of suckers out there, but even the most ignorant casino patron should realize that those statistics mean nothing, right?

I think you are underestimating the number of suckers. The lottery board puts out similar useless statistics like this list of remaining prizes. Unfortunately they don't tell you how many tickets are left. I presume that when the last major prize is gone, eventually they destroy the few remaining instant tickets, rather than sell them with no prizes left.

Quote: pacomartin

I presume that when the last major prize is gone, eventually they destroy the few remaining instant tickets, rather than sell them with no prizes left.

I would expect them to continue selling the worthless tickets and tell anyone who later complains "You should have looked at the list".

Quote: Goldbaron357

The indian casinos in washington state I notice have brought in a ton of WMS machines... And you know what? I was told they do not manufacture any video poker machines, so for one, I hate WMS very deeply over that. 2. I think it demonstrates that their machines perhaps are not as... Fair as say, IGT or any of the others... And 3. My bankroll disappears WAY faster on a WMS than any other brand machine.

Idaho on the otherhand, doesn't have a single WMS machine that I can spot. My bankroll goes further, and I have more fun on less money.

I don't have any physical evidence to support my position, but does anyone have a similar opinion? That WMS machines are highly irregular in terms of their statistical probabilities and distributions?

Also, the only time I see jackpots hit on these machines are with full bet. I never have seen a jackpot win on anything less than max by anyone.

But my theory is, perhaps people doubt the machines have hit anything big... It would provide evidence that yes, infact the machines have hit, and that it is possible they can hit again. That's the only time I think a casino would want to display any charts. It has the same effect that hearing coins clinking into the trays have: winning is contagious, in that if you hear others "winning", you want to "win" too, and you will play to do it.

But as a rule, I try to avoid WMS :-)

Where in Idaho? I was at the casino on I-15 just the other day (around Malad City I think), and they had banks and banks of WMS machines.

I remember someone saying on this board (perhaps MathExtremist?) that WMS is very well respected for their games. Of course, that might have been Aristocrat.

Quote: avargov

I remember someone saying on this board (perhaps MathExtremist?) that WMS is very well respected for their games. Of course, that might have been Aristocrat.

WMS does have very quality games. I enjoy a lot of their concepts. Plus, you can't discount the fact that they used to put out some very good pinball games :)

On a side note, has anyone played slots from Aruze? Some of the weirdest games you will ever play. Imported from China. (e.g. "The Last Emperor" slots where the wild symbol is the Empress Dowager. Not even kidding. Also Chin Shi Huang Di slots to complete the Chinese history motif.)

Think about how insidious it would be to the kinds of people (my assumption) who frequent these penny stocks if a machine stated "it has been X,000 spins since this machine paid a jackpot" actively on the screen. Are there regulations against this? It strikes me that it might generate the same type of "logic" (and mania) these same people use to conclude that they are "due" to hit the lottery.

Quote: seviay

It strikes me that it might generate the same type of "logic" (and mania) these same people use to conclude that they are "due" to hit the lottery.

Anyone buying a lottery ticket thinks its due to hit, anyone feeding a slot machine thinks it due to hit. This "due" is illogical but understandable. Whats the difference between "x-thousand spins since last payoff" and all those other flashing lights and flashing sums of money?

Quote: FleaStiff

Anyone buying a lottery ticket thinks its due to hit, anyone feeding a slot machine thinks it due to hit. This "due" is illogical but understandable. Whats the difference between "x-thousand spins since last payoff" and all those other flashing lights and flashing sums of money?

I suppose for the feeble-minded penny slot dwellers, the x-thousand spins since last jackpot alert may make it seem more "imminent" to hit than random flashing lights and pay tables (though it might actually discourage play on those machines that recently paid). That's why I felt it more insidious (read: genius, to my capitalistic mind). They're always scheming new ways to take money from the unfortunate, so why not try these kinds of tempting messages? In case you couldn't tell, I'm a huge proponent of social Darwinism

I read an interview with a former casino exec who said every casino in Vegas and everywhere else would love to have nothing but slots if they could get away with it. No dealers, no pit, only slot tech's to pay. And you would know every week how much money you were going to make, or close to it.

No dealer's unions to deal with, A hell of a lot less worry about schedules and vacations. You can't use a temp agency to fill
dealers positions. And look at the recent efficiencies in slots versus table games. With TITO , there goes the change girls, hard count, . plastic buckets for carrying coins to the counter, etc, No smoking has greatly reduced janitorial expenses on the slot floor.
Penny slots are approaching the play of quarter slots, at 3 coins a pull, as the average penny play is now 73 cents.
Table games like bj are fast fading, hands dealt per hour are not increasing but wages are, And the chip tray is as inefficient as the coin changer Red Skelton used in The Good Humor man. 6 to 5 is growing and table minimums are increasing. Anybody care to disagree with the logic of the casino managers !!

Quote: buzzpaff

Anybody care to disagree with the logic of the casino managers !!

Also, there's no technical reason that I know of, that places around Vegas (grocery, 7-11) couldn't have miniturized versions of all the popular casino games that take no more room than any of the old Vp machines.

In the past, it might have been an issue. Now it's likely you could squeeze any number of games in such a space.

We have WMS machines at my local casino here in Idaho, I have noticed that a lot of them do not pay out as well as the other brands there, but the features are cool just don't plan on winning anything big.

Quote: FleaStiff

Anyone buying a lottery ticket thinks its due to hit, anyone feeding a slot machine thinks it due to hit. This "due" is illogical but understandable. Whats the difference between "x-thousand spins since last payoff" and all those other flashing lights and flashing sums of money?

Aren't you supposed to feel the slot machines before playing them to determine which ones are hot? ( ha ha )