A way to discourage slot APs
There really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
There really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
Quote: AxelWolfThere really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
link to original post
https://youtu.be/DxjTcleGE2s
Quote: AxelWolfThere really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
link to original post
That is a very good point.
But good luck getting people in the industry to understand that.
Quote: Brickapotamus
That is a very good point.
But good luck getting people in the industry to understand that.
link to original post
People in the industry do understand that. Truth is, they would like to get rid of all profitable players no matter what type of skill they have.
Quote: BrickapotamusQuote: AxelWolfThere really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
link to original post
That is a very good point.
But good luck getting people in the industry to understand that.
link to original post
Simple distinction:
Ban the people that stand so close over the ploppie that he knows what her bra color is.
Also, ban the people just loitering.
ie: camping out at Buffalo Asc
Quote: billryanJust spitballin' here, but couldn't you design a slot screen that can only be seen by someone in the seat? Years ago, my friend had a laptop that couldn't be read by someone sitting in a seat behind him. I'd imagine the technology has only gotten better.
link to original post
Sure, but that defeats the "attract" features when the game is not in play.
Quote: DieterQuote: billryanJust spitballin' here, but couldn't you design a slot screen that can only be seen by someone in the seat? Years ago, my friend had a laptop that couldn't be read by someone sitting in a seat behind him. I'd imagine the technology has only gotten better.
link to original post
Sure, but that defeats the "attract" features when the game is not in play.
link to original post
How about if it is only in use when the seat is occupied? Seventy pounds of pressure in the seat, and the screen isn't viewable by anyone but the player.
Quote: DieterQuote: billryanJust spitballin' here, but couldn't you design a slot screen that can only be seen by someone in the seat? Years ago, my friend had a laptop that couldn't be read by someone sitting in a seat behind him. I'd imagine the technology has only gotten better.
link to original post
Sure, but that defeats the "attract" features when the game is not in play.
link to original post
How about if it is only in use when the seat is occupied? Seventy pounds of pressure in the seat, and the screen isn't viewable by anyone but the player.
Quote: billryanQuote: DieterQuote: billryanJust spitballin' here, but couldn't you design a slot screen that can only be seen by someone in the seat? Years ago, my friend had a laptop that couldn't be read by someone sitting in a seat behind him. I'd imagine the technology has only gotten better.
link to original post
Sure, but that defeats the "attract" features when the game is not in play.
link to original post
How about if it is only in use when the seat is occupied? Seventy pounds of pressure in the seat, and the screen isn't viewable by anyone but the player.
link to original post
even easier than that.
when $ is in the machine.
but AP's will lean down low, almost sitting next to the ploppie to check because casinos have no backbone to throw out the annoying APs
Quote: billryanQuote: DieterQuote: billryanJust spitballin' here, but couldn't you design a slot screen that can only be seen by someone in the seat? Years ago, my friend had a laptop that couldn't be read by someone sitting in a seat behind him. I'd imagine the technology has only gotten better.
link to original post
Sure, but that defeats the "attract" features when the game is not in play.
link to original post
How about if it is only in use when the seat is occupied? Seventy pounds of pressure in the seat, and the screen isn't viewable by anyone but the player.
link to original post
Now we're talking about a technology substantially different from what was used to privatize laptop displays years ago.
Quote: 100xOddsQuote: BrickapotamusQuote: AxelWolfThere really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
link to original post
That is a very good point.
But good luck getting people in the industry to understand that.
link to original post
Simple distinction:
Ban the people that stand so close over the ploppie that he knows what her bra color is.
Also, ban the people just loitering.
ie: camping out at Buffalo Asc
link to original post
Exactly this.
No need to do mass changes of machines, but people that loiter around casinos without playing and / or stare at other players without playing themselves should be removed.
This would not only get rid of APs but would also help get rid of panhandlers, credit thieves, homeless people using the casino as a place to hang out, & follow home robbers.
I don’t get why so many casinos allow sketchy people to hang out all day without playing.
Quote: BrickapotamusQuote: 100xOddsQuote: BrickapotamusQuote: AxelWolfThere really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
link to original post
That is a very good point.
But good luck getting people in the industry to understand that.
link to original post
Simple distinction:
Ban the people that stand so close over the ploppie that he knows what her bra color is.
Also, ban the people just loitering.
ie: camping out at Buffalo Asc
link to original post
Exactly this.
No need to do mass changes of machines, but people that loiter around casinos without playing and / or stare at other players without playing themselves should be removed.
This would not only get rid of APs but would also help get rid of panhandlers, credit thieves, homeless people using the casino as a place to hang out, & follow home robbers.
I don’t get why so many casinos allow sketchy people to hang out all day without playing.
link to original post
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
Quote: darkozQuote: BrickapotamusQuote: 100xOddsQuote: BrickapotamusQuote: AxelWolfThere really should be a distinction between slot vultures and slot Advantage Players.Quote: BrickapotamusActually no reason to go through all this rigmarole to solve an imaginary problem.
If casinos really wanted to get rid of slot APs all they need to do is to ban all the guys wearing man purses & all the people sitting behind the buffalo ascension machines all day.
This would eliminate 90% of slot APs right off the top.
And if anyone wearing a man purse that was not a slot AP accidentally got banned it would not be a major loss as statistically man purse wearing males are one of the least profitable segments of casino patrons.
link to original post
link to original post
That is a very good point.
But good luck getting people in the industry to understand that.
link to original post
Simple distinction:
Ban the people that stand so close over the ploppie that he knows what her bra color is.
Also, ban the people just loitering.
ie: camping out at Buffalo Asc
link to original post
Exactly this.
No need to do mass changes of machines, but people that loiter around casinos without playing and / or stare at other players without playing themselves should be removed.
This would not only get rid of APs but would also help get rid of panhandlers, credit thieves, homeless people using the casino as a place to hang out, & follow home robbers.
I don’t get why so many casinos allow sketchy people to hang out all day without playing.
link to original post
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
link to original post
Fair point.
Casinos that do a lot of busing usually have bus lobbies. Some very nice, some not so nice.
If they are just waiting around for the bus no worries.
If they are sitting right behind players staring them down intently while waiting for the bus maybe a polite “Sir, it makes players uncomfortable if you sit right behind them staring them down while they’re playing. If you’d like to watch other players while you wait for the bus no problem, but please do so from a distance.” from security.
Also casinos that do a lot of busing should do a cost benefit analysis if it’s profitable for them to have hundreds of players each day with such small bankrolls that they are going to get knocked out in the first hour & then bring the atmosphere of the casino down to the level of a Grey Hound bus depot for the next 6 hours, and how does this affect the attendance & play of bigger players?
Quote: darkoz
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
link to original post
But they know who these people are. They know if you've played that day and how much. Hell, I know who these people are and I don't have the benefit of surveillance or player card records.
Quote: darkoz
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
link to original post
At least around here, the senior day bus tour group all wear lanyards and badges to increase their chances of getting back on the bus.
Quote: DieterQuote: darkoz
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
link to original post
At least around here, the senior day bus tour group all wear lanyards and badges to increase their chances of getting back on the bus.
link to original post
Seniors rarely cause any negative issues at all in a casino.
Unless of course, they happen to die on the casino floor, which sadly does happen from time to time,
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
link to original post
But they know who these people are. They know if you've played that day and how much. Hell, I know who these people are and I don't have the benefit of surveillance or player card records.
link to original post
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
Quote: darkozQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
link to original post
But they know who these people are. They know if you've played that day and how much. Hell, I know who these people are and I don't have the benefit of surveillance or player card records.
link to original post
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
You’re forgetting the entertainment value though of watching casinos trying to address these issues.
For example Caesars has been removing a lot of their AP slots which is funny to watch given that since all their penny machines are set to the lowest possible setting (usually 85%) they are shooting themselves in the foot.
A lot of APs get crushed a Caesars because they play numbers based on the 87%, 88%, 89% or 90% RTPs of other casinos which lead to losses at Caesars properties.
So now Caesars properties not only miss out on that revenue, but they remove popular games that regular players would be willing to play at 85% RTP but now won’t because they can’t find those games at Caesars.
So you have a company that is so greedy & incompetent that even when people willingly show up to their outdated run down properties to cycle money through their machines that keep 15 cents on every dollar, they are reducing opportunities for people to do that over the perception that a few players here & there might be “getting over” on them.
Quote: DieterQuote: darkoz
Because it will also get rid of good gamblers who have lost all their money and are just killing their day dreaming about their return with more money in their pockets.
This is especially true of places that bus people in. Atlantic City and Connecticut Indian casinos have lots of people who have busted out and are just waiting for their return bus (usually scheduled for 6 hours after arriving) and are watching with envy the other players.
Imagine getting rid of all those players in the AP purge.
link to original post
At least around here, the senior day bus tour group all wear lanyards and badges to increase their chances of getting back on the bus.
link to original post
That's more or less what I'm saying. If you've got a bus ticket, you're (probably) not loitering with ill intent.
I do understand that the bus crowd is a different demographic out east, and may be less benign.
Loiterers, vultures, and bums... they all need to go!
Quote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
Quote: Brickapotamus...
So you have a company that is so greedy & incompetent that even when people willingly show up to their outdated run down properties to cycle money through their machines that keep 15 cents on every dollar, they are reducing opportunities for people to do that over the perception that a few players here & there might be “getting over” on them.
link to original post
But whoever made that decision can tell their boss they "did something." Everybody is scrambling to protect their job in this contracting industry.
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
There was a great podcast on this website below.
I think it was the one about the follow home robberies where two surveillance guys discuss why casino security & surveillance are so reluctant to try to get rid of loiterers & if I recall correctly one of them said it was “The ick factor” meaning it’s easier for staff to just ignore it than to try to get down in the weeds & get these people out,
https://www.willyallison.com/podcast
Quote: BrickapotamusQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
There was a great podcast on this website below.
I think it was the one about the follow home robberies where two surveillance guys discuss why casino security & surveillance are so reluctant to try to get rid of loiterers & if I recall correctly one of them said it was “The ick factor” meaning it’s easier for staff to just ignore it than to try to get down in the weeds & get these people out,
https://www.willyallison.com/podcast
link to original post
And I would be sure the legal department had a say in it too. Confrontation between employees and patrons (even/especially undesirable ones) = liability. Somebody wants to fight, somebody gets injured, somebody provokes an unstable security guard and there's gratuitous violence, somebody claims they were discriminated against in violation of civil rights, that's going to be a lot more expensive for the casino than a panhandler, or abandoned balance thief, or any kind of AP.
It's been a long time since I've had a hostile and confrontational backoff or trespass and that's the reason why, I guess. If I wanted to escalate that into something the lawyers on the billboards would be interested in, I could do that at any time.
Quote: AutomaticMonkeyQuote: BrickapotamusQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
There was a great podcast on this website below.
I think it was the one about the follow home robberies where two surveillance guys discuss why casino security & surveillance are so reluctant to try to get rid of loiterers & if I recall correctly one of them said it was “The ick factor” meaning it’s easier for staff to just ignore it than to try to get down in the weeds & get these people out,
https://www.willyallison.com/podcast
link to original post
And I would be sure the legal department had a say in it too. Confrontation between employees and patrons (even/especially undesirable ones) = liability. Somebody wants to fight, somebody gets injured, somebody provokes an unstable security guard and there's gratuitous violence, somebody claims they were discriminated against in violation of civil rights, that's going to be a lot more expensive for the casino than a panhandler, or abandoned balance thief, or any kind of AP.
It's been a long time since I've had a hostile and confrontational backoff or trespass and that's the reason why, I guess. If I wanted to escalate that into something the lawyers on the billboards would be interested in, I could do that at any time.
link to original post
Assuming that they don't assault you you would have no case. Casinos kick people out all the time, as is their right. They have no problem kicking out APs.
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: AutomaticMonkey
And I would be sure the legal department had a say in it too. Confrontation between employees and patrons (even/especially undesirable ones) = liability. Somebody wants to fight, somebody gets injured, somebody provokes an unstable security guard and there's gratuitous violence, somebody claims they were discriminated against in violation of civil rights, that's going to be a lot more expensive for the casino than a panhandler, or abandoned balance thief, or any kind of AP.
It's been a long time since I've had a hostile and confrontational backoff or trespass and that's the reason why, I guess. If I wanted to escalate that into something the lawyers on the billboards would be interested in, I could do that at any time.
link to original post
Assuming that they don't assault you you would have no case. Casinos kick people out all the time, as is their right. They have no problem kicking out APs.
link to original post
Oh sure, politely asked to stop playing or to leave by an unarmed person trained in customer relations. I still get that once in a while. But in the past I have experienced other things that are edgeplay for assault, battery, physical threat, and if something goes bad that is going to be used against them in a civil claim. Security guards tend to be a mess. Some of them are people who were rejected by and even fired from police departments because the police department doesn't want to accept the risks they bring. In a casino they are going to be encountering people who are skilled at manufacturing torts and who will induce them to assault, or something close enough where it's cheaper to pay the settlement.
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
That's not what I was saying.
They can tell who is loitering vs who is gambling. We agree on that.
But they would have a difficult time telling who is AP and who is vulturing vs who is gambling.
Old white lady sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out
Young Asian man sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out.
One is a vulture who is playing after someone gets up and leaves a variable positive state. The other is a legit gambler who is playing after someone gets up and leaves the machine and the player says hey that game looks like fun.
Oh and I didn't specify which one of the two is the vulture but I would hazard a guess most people on here would say it's the young Asian guy. And probably the casino would too.
Targeting players based on their ethnicity? Guess where that leads too?
Quote: darkozQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
That's not what I was saying.
They can tell who is loitering vs who is gambling. We agree on that.
But they would have a difficult time telling who is AP and who is vulturing vs who is gambling.
Old white lady sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out
Young Asian man sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out.
One is a vulture who is playing after someone gets up and leaves a variable positive state. The other is a legit gambler who is playing after someone gets up and leaves the machine and the player says hey that game looks like fun.
Oh and I didn't specify which one of the two is the vulture but I would hazard a guess most people on here would say it's the young Asian guy. And probably the casino would too.
Targeting players based on their ethnicity? Guess where that leads too?
link to original post
That was a terrible example. No one cares if someone merely sits down and plays. Whether it's 8 spins or 8,000. Whether the player cashes out a win or walks away broke.
The issue is with vultures who stand around NOT PLAYING. The same is true with the bums who use casinos as a homeless shelter.
Loitering, for whatever reason, is not good for business. It makes the customers nervous. They take up space. They need to go.
The only thing the casinos should do specifically to AP is zero out their players card. If someone can AP a slot machine with zero player card bennies and no loitering, go right ahead. I doubt it's possible.
Quote: KevinAAQuote: darkozQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
That's not what I was saying.
They can tell who is loitering vs who is gambling. We agree on that.
But they would have a difficult time telling who is AP and who is vulturing vs who is gambling.
Old white lady sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out
Young Asian man sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out.
One is a vulture who is playing after someone gets up and leaves a variable positive state. The other is a legit gambler who is playing after someone gets up and leaves the machine and the player says hey that game looks like fun.
Oh and I didn't specify which one of the two is the vulture but I would hazard a guess most people on here would say it's the young Asian guy. And probably the casino would too.
Targeting players based on their ethnicity? Guess where that leads too?
link to original post
That was a terrible example. No one cares if someone merely sits down and plays. Whether it's 8 spins or 8,000. Whether the player cashes out a win or walks away broke.
The issue is with vultures who stand around NOT PLAYING. The same is true with the bums who use casinos as a homeless shelter.
Loitering, for whatever reason, is not good for business. It makes the customers nervous. They take up space. They need to go.
The only thing the casinos should do specifically to AP is zero out their players card. If someone can AP a slot machine with zero player card bennies and no loitering, go right ahead. I doubt it's possible.
link to original post
Don't tell me you have never seen an old lady just sitting at a slot machine loitering?
They usually don't even try to hide it. They just sit there with their purse next to them looking around kinda bored.
Even arguing people who watch other people play should be targeted is bad cause there are plenty of times people wait for a game that is taken they want to play.
I'm telling you guys these casino security and surveillance dudes will almost certainly dragnet 20% estimated legit gamblers in their net if they tried to just get rid of people who aren't actively gambling.
And once they set their sights on someone no one will be able to convince them otherwise. They think a little old lady is a vulture, she's gone.
And I have seen little old ladies stop to check the denoms at Scarab and Golden Egypt so they do exist
Quote: KevinAAThat was a terrible example. No one cares if someone merely sits down and plays. Whether it's 8 spins or 8,000. Whether the player cashes out a win or walks away broke.
The issue is with vultures who stand around NOT PLAYING. The same is true with the bums who use casinos as a homeless shelter.
Loitering, for whatever reason, is not good for business. It makes the customers nervous. They take up space. They need to go.
The only thing the casinos should do specifically to AP is zero out their players card. If someone can AP a slot machine with zero player card bennies and no loitering, go right ahead. I doubt it's possible.
link to original post
No, I think it's a lot deeper than that. A white guy around 30 with a ball cap and glasses comes in and hands them $20K at the sports book and they tell him where he can shove his action, while regular tourists will be collectively betting far more than that on the same line and they don't care. Why?
Your theoretical loss is exactly proportional to how much a casino wants you to be on their floor, and the theo of any AP in any discipline is by definition negative. Or else they're not an AP. From that perspective alone a bum panhandling around the slots is less of an undesirable than an AP, because a bum is a man of vice and will leave some of the money he gets behind in this place of vice. A hooker is usually a compulsive everything and if she is working a casino floor she will be leaving behind more than her honor too. But that breaks down when such people create an atmosphere that is or even looks unsafe or unclean and that's bad enough for business that their action is not worth what they will lose from other patrons.
My opinion is that if a slot AP is loitering to any noticeable degree he's not much of an AP. If I'm backcounting tables that's one thing, because how often a desirable count appears is fully calculable and follows statistical laws, all modified by my start/stop watching parameters, whether I can count 2 or more tables at a time, if I am working alone or with partners and all that. But for me to backcount full tables where I am both waiting for a good count and wishing and hoping someone gets up and lets me play, I don't call that good AP. Got to keep moving; everyone who does this should do a leg stretch routine every day to increase their walking speed for increased win rate.
Best the casinos can do, I think, is just 86 the ones that do antisocial behavior towards other patrons and the rest aren't noticeable enough to anyone that they are worth pursuing.
Quote: darkozQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
That's not what I was saying.
They can tell who is loitering vs who is gambling. We agree on that.
But they would have a difficult time telling who is AP and who is vulturing vs who is gambling.
Old white lady sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out
Young Asian man sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out.
One is a vulture who is playing after someone gets up and leaves a variable positive state. The other is a legit gambler who is playing after someone gets up and leaves the machine and the player says hey that game looks like fun.
Oh and I didn't specify which one of the two is the vulture but I would hazard a guess most people on here would say it's the young Asian guy. And probably the casino would too.
Targeting players based on their ethnicity? Guess where that leads too?
link to original post
I don't think you kick them out based on those 8 spins. But what do they do after that? What did they do before that? What have they done their previous 10 times in thay casino?
Honestly it's not even just the vultures. Getting rid of the panhandlers would be a start. Although the panhandlers are usually more discreet than the vultures.
Vultures are usually obvious in their behavior, and most don't try to hide it. It's not about sitting and playing 8 spins. It's about going to 20 machines checking every bet level of every denomination first. It has nothing to do with race or gender or age. They are doing it openly. Don't tell me that surveillance can't spot that and keep an eye on someone and make a determination.
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkozQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: darkoz
You give the casino too much credit.
They are just employees and often they choose people with very little gambling knowledge because they feel they are less inclined to do shenanigans.
Obviously table dealers have to understand the games.
But ask slot attendants how slots work and they often don't know.
I had a Scarab conk out on me on the 9th spin with nearly the whole screen covered at a $20 wager. The attendant couldn't fix it so I had to wait longer for a slot tech.
He fixed it and watched me take a spin. I won a jackpot of course and the slot attendant said "wow, that was a lucky spin."
He had no clue why I had won.
And you want these guys and worse surveillance and security to figure out who are the vultures?
link to original post
Obviously I do not expect the slot techs or slot attendants to do this job. But this is what surveillance and security are for. I don't believe that they can't figure out who is just loitering vs who is a gambler who is taking a break or waiting for a bus after losing their money. This doesn't require any actual knowledge of gambling.
link to original post
That's not what I was saying.
They can tell who is loitering vs who is gambling. We agree on that.
But they would have a difficult time telling who is AP and who is vulturing vs who is gambling.
Old white lady sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out
Young Asian man sits down and takes 8 spins, cashes out.
One is a vulture who is playing after someone gets up and leaves a variable positive state. The other is a legit gambler who is playing after someone gets up and leaves the machine and the player says hey that game looks like fun.
Oh and I didn't specify which one of the two is the vulture but I would hazard a guess most people on here would say it's the young Asian guy. And probably the casino would too.
Targeting players based on their ethnicity? Guess where that leads too?
link to original post
I don't think you kick them out based on those 8 spins. But what do they do after that? What did they do before that? What have they done their previous 10 times in thay casino?
Honestly it's not even just the vultures. Getting rid of the panhandlers would be a start. Although the panhandlers are usually more discreet than the vultures.
Vultures are usually obvious in their behavior, and most don't try to hide it. It's not about sitting and playing 8 spins. It's about going to 20 machines checking every bet level of every denomination first. It has nothing to do with race or gender or age. They are doing it openly. Don't tell me that surveillance can't spot that and keep an eye on someone and make a determination.
link to original post
I know someone who worked surveillance in a casino so I have some inside dope on how they operate.
2000 cameras. How many people working? 10 people would make them responsible for 200 cameras. But the casinos don't have 10 guys working surveillance. It's more like 5 at most.
They reduce the cameras to thumbnails and watch them simultaneously scanning for things that stick out of the ordinary. If they see something suspicious they click on the thumbnail for a better look.
Most of the time they are drinking coffee while relaxed as their eyes peruse hundreds of thumbnails.
And patrons walking past slots and pushing buttons as seen through thumbnails isn't suspicious enough to warrant clicking on thumbnails to verify. And as you pointed out to confirm they would have to follow those patrons around.
Following around all these patrons by zooming into thumbnails as they pass by checking machines and walking around the whole casino and really when viewing thumbnails the patrons just look alike? Not gonna happen.
Plus surveillance (from the guy who worked surveillance) doesn't want to work hard. They want to sign in, sit back and surveil casually while drinking their coffee. And you want them to start checking for people pushing denom buttons?
Unless they are being abusive to other players, you are just gonna have to learn to live with the vultures etc.
Probably a better plan than trying to torture the golden goose into potentially yielding a .00000001% bigger free golden egg than it is currently laying.
Quote: KevinAAThe staff who work on the floor (slot attendants and security) can watch one person with far greater precision than can surveillance. What makes the cameras so handy is that they record everything and surveillance can go into the past. But the challenge is getting the employees to care enough about this.
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Tipped employees (slot attendants) do not want to do anything where they are not going to be tipped, and who can blame them?
Nobody who works in a casino is going to be both enthusiastic and competent enough to do this stuff without creating more trouble than it's worth.
