How much AP's make at a busy casino
That got me thinking about total overall $ from AP opportunities.
Let's take a busy AP infested casino like Borgata in AC:
https://gamingamerica.com/news/12832/nj-casino-revenue-reaches-33bn-during-fy2024-operating-profit-decreases-92
FY2024: $783M revenue
Let's say 10% of the machines are AP'able at 103% ev.
$783M x 10% = $78.3M
$78.3M x 3% = $2.35M up for grabs
If there are 100 AP's total at Borgata throughout the year:
$2.35M/100 = $23.5k each, on avg
But of course not all AP's will be there 7days/week, 10hrs+ per day.
The more part timers, the higher the full timer's avg.
And some AP's will get more plays because they camp instead of just circling.
So that's my SWAG estimate.
Quote: 100xOddsHow much $ slot AP's make depends on how many of them are at the casino.
That got my thinking about total overall AP opportunities.
Let's take a busy AP infested casino like Borgata in AC:
https://gamingamerica.com/news/12832/nj-casino-revenue-reaches-33bn-during-fy2024-operating-profit-decreases-92
FY2024: $783M revenue
Let's say 10% of the machines are AP'able at 103% ev.
$783M x 10% = $78.3M
$78.3M x 3% = $2.35M up for grabs
If there are 100 AP's total at Borgata throughout the year:
$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg
But of course not all AP's will be there 7days/week, 10hrs+ per day.
The more part timers, the higher the full timer's avg.
And some AP's will get more plays because they camp instead of just circling.
So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post
Are you suggesting the average Borgota AP makes less than a fast food worker?
Quote: 100xOdds
$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg
So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post
2.35/100 =0.0235 .
Is this your Scientific Wild-Ass Guess?
Also, AP machines are probably 2% at most.
Quote: acesideQuote: 100xOdds
$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg
So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post
2.35/100 =0.0235 .
Is this your Scientific Wild-Ass Guess?
Also, AP machines are probably 2% at most.
link to original post
Also, these slots only yield a player edge a small portion of the time, so a much smaller portion of overall play should be included in your calculations.
Quote: acesideQuote: 100xOdds
$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg
So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post
2.35/100 =0.0235 .
link to original post
Thx. corrected
But one guy hires, trains, and banks people, keeping 20 of them in rotation at one location alone for a 50% split.Quote: billryanQuote: 100xOddsHow much $ slot AP's make depends on how many of them are at the casino.
That got my thinking about total overall AP opportunities.
Let's take a busy AP infested casino like Borgata in AC:
https://gamingamerica.com/news/12832/nj-casino-revenue-reaches-33bn-during-fy2024-operating-profit-decreases-92
FY2024: $783M revenue
Let's say 10% of the machines are AP'able at 103% ev.
$783M x 10% = $78.3M
$78.3M x 3% = $2.35M up for grabs
If there are 100 AP's total at Borgata throughout the year:
$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg
But of course not all AP's will be there 7days/week, 10hrs+ per day.
The more part timers, the higher the full timer's avg.
And some AP's will get more plays because they camp instead of just circling.
So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post
Are you suggesting the average Borgota AP makes less than a fast food worker?
link to original post
Account for leakage, etc, and he could be pulling in 200k a year at just one location.
Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.
One guy is hiring people and taking half? Yea right. Those people would work for him for a month till they tell him they’re leaving and playing on their own. This is not team card counting where you can play together as a benefit.
I think I would watch that !Quote: Sandybestdog.....There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.
Quote: Sandybestdog
One guy is hiring people and taking half? Yea right. Those people would work for him for a month till they tell him they’re leaving and playing on their own. This is not team card counting where you can play together as a benefit.
link to original post
I believe you are wrong on this one.
Quote: SandybestdogHow about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.
Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.
link to original post
I used to make $10/hr playing $1/$3 no limit by just playing premium hands and set mining. I would semi-bluff with draws and fire a bet on river even if I miss.
It would be very easy to play against me so that tells you how terrible weekend poker players are.
Also, some of that $ came from hitting promos. Ie: $500 high hand , mini bad beat (full house aces beaten),etc
Quote: 100xOddsQuote: SandybestdogHow about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.
Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.
link to original post
I used to make $10/hr playing $1/$3 no limit by just playing premium hands and set mining. I would semi-bluff with draws and fire a bet on river even if I miss.
It would be very easy to play against me so that tells you how terrible weekend poker players are.
Also, some of that $ came from hitting promos. Ie: $500 high hand , mini bad beat (full house aces beaten),etc
link to original post
Too many payers in Vegas want to prove their strength and play at Mirage, Aria, Venetian, etc. If you are a competent 5/10 player play the games at Excalibur, Luxor, Treasure Island, etc. I first played casino poker at the Skyline casino and it was 7 card stud. That was before Texas Hold'em became popular and everybody played stud.
Quote: DRichQuote: 100xOddsQuote: SandybestdogHow about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.
Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.
link to original post
I used to make $10/hr playing $1/$3 no limit by just playing premium hands and set mining. I would semi-bluff with draws and fire a bet on river even if I miss.
It would be very easy to play against me so that tells you how terrible weekend poker players are.
Also, some of that $ came from hitting promos. Ie: $500 high hand , mini bad beat (full house aces beaten),etc
link to original post
Too many payers in Vegas want to prove their strength and play at Mirage, Aria, Venetian, etc. If you are a competent 5/10 player play the games at Excalibur, Luxor, Treasure Island, etc. I first played casino poker at the Skyline casino and it was 7 card stud. That was before Texas Hold'em became popular and everybody played stud.
link to original post
i tried to be competent and move up to $2/5.. bought poker books.. read 1st few chapters then collects dust.
it felt like work.
i was ok with $10/hr since i was playing for fun.
I think most of the enjoyment came from chasing the promos. (Although I didn't enjoy how stiff my back was at the end of 6hrs sitting there with just bathroom breaks as movement.)
My comment was mosly made in jest.Quote: SandybestdogHow about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.
Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.
One guy is hiring people and taking half? Yea right. Those people would work for him for a month till they tell him they’re leaving and playing on their own. This is not team card counting where you can play together as a benefit.
link to original post
I have no Idea what the reality of machine vulturing is at the Borgata or anywhere, for that matter. I've done very vulturing for many years. However, I do know people who do pretty good via slot vulturing.
IF(That's a BIG IF)100xOdds calculations were accurate, I do believe a motivated, skilled individual could figure out how to hire a smaller number of people(20 is obviously absurd) to extract a lion's share of the value left on the table.
Not all employees walk. I know people who have been AP employees 15+ years; admittedly, that's not common, but it does happen more than you might think.
In a perfect world, you would rather have all the plays to yourself and no competition. But that's almost never going to happen, perhaps on a cruise ship or something very isolated.
Therefore, I do think small vulture teams can benefit each other; a well-coordinated group can freeze out much of the competition. They have the ability to camp indefinitely. There's a less likely chance they'll miss a better play because they're stuck on something of lesser value. It can also be a deterrent for other Advantage players and vultures, knowing there's a well-coordinated group in a particular Casino leading them to avoid that particular place.
I certainly understand that some people are playing lower numbers simply because they're idiots, however, that's not always the case. Sometimes there's a strategic and advantageous reason why those numbers are being played so low.
Quote: DRich
Too many payers in Vegas want to prove their strength and play at Mirage, Aria, Venetian, etc. If you are a competent 5/10 player play the games at Excalibur, Luxor, Treasure Island, etc. I first played casino poker at the Skyline casino and it was 7 card stud. That was before Texas Hold'em became popular and everybody played stud.
link to original post
So I haven’t made actual money yet, but I’ve earned a lot of EV and that’s all that matters.
https://x.com/MarleSpragg/status/1607082030881443841/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1607082030881443841¤tTweetUser=MarleSpragg
https://x.com/marlespragg/status/1607082030881443841?s=46&t=CLei7APF7rNAVQN7PjmxnQ
We have a few APs that post here and elsewhere and they sometimes post receipts on their income level for various years.
At least that's how it's supposed to work. We don't live in a free market though =/. Policy and candidate purchases, as well as companies forming "informal" monopolies (i.e. look at internet companies in the US), as well as companies just literally working together to keep prices high (and wages low) across the board. Why do you think companies tell you to NEVER talk salary with each other? Because they work as hard as they can to give their employees as little as humanly possible. This is why every single person SHOULD discuss their salary with every other person at their company. Come to find out you're doing the same job (or even more) and getting paid less than someone else with a better social game.Quote: TomGIn freemarket capitalism, all wages will fall somewhere between the lowest that the worker is willing to accept and the highest that the corporation is willing to pay.
link to original post
This is why capitalism is ultimately flawed... it puts money over people.
Sorry, my old man rant for the day lol
***To respond to the actual thread. This number is going to vary, wildly. My local shop is small and not worth a ton but has value... there are a total of about 25 guys I've seen hustle the place.... 5-10 are there noon to midnight, every single day, for the past year+. One finally got a lifetime ban across the country, and others will eventually... but my point is that I can still go to this casino and find plays left and right. Even with 5 FULL TIME 12pm-12am "hustlers" there. They simply don't have the numbers, or don't know how to properly use them (all I'll say). So yeah, AP results will vary wildly at best. Some of those guys are negative, even, and a couple I believe make money. Not to sound snooty but just again to show levels to the game, I don't think maybe but 1 or 2 in the 25 actually make what I would consider decent money.
They are looking for a sweet spot where the machine is not yet in a positive state but represents a discount to getting there.
On a Scarab machine for example they will play with just a few wilds on the 4th spin. They are not looking for a 9th spin someone left the machine state. Because they probably never will find such a situation.
lol or they're like the guys near me and play the first 3-4 spins just to see if they'll get enough wilds to keep playing or leave it after spinning it 3-4 times XD.Quote: darkoz...On a Scarab machine for example they will play with just a few wilds on the 4th spin. They are not looking for a 9th spin someone left the machine state. Because they probably never will find such a situation.
link to original post
Quote: Romeslol or they're like the guys near me and play the first 3-4 spins just to see if they'll get enough wilds to keep playing or leave it after spinning it 3-4 times XD.Quote: darkoz...On a Scarab machine for example they will play with just a few wilds on the 4th spin. They are not looking for a 9th spin someone left the machine state. Because they probably never will find such a situation.
link to original post
link to original post
I think those are the anti-vultures. The ones leaving the game on the 4th spin in the cycle for the vultures
Quote: Romesa total of about 25 guys I've seen hustle the place.... 5-10 are there noon to midnight, every single day, for the past year+. One finally got a lifetime ban across the country, and others will eventually.
I don't think maybe but 1 or 2 in the 25 actually make what I would consider decent money.
link to original post
What's your definition of decent $?
Quote: RomesAt least that's how it's supposed to work. We don't live in a free market though =/.
This is a good point. When someone goes into a casino to earn money, they are the one that controls the means of production as they are the one who decides to make a bet or not. Like in certain anti-capitalist economic systems, their income will be based on however much value their labor creates.
Quote: ChallengedMillyI've worked a decent job for $130 a day before and it more than paid for my lifestyle at the time. I suspect, without much evidence, that AP's make roughly $200-300 a day on average with a boost to this if they do score a random jackpot, which does sometimes happen. Ultimately we know APs make enough to cover their time spent at the casino, since if they didn't, they likely would be doing something else for money/lifestyle upkeep.
link to original post
If an AP is dedicated and doesn't have leaks they can earn much more. I knew an AP in Vegas that was travelling to California at least once a week and was making $15k-$20k a month.
Quote: darkozI make $20,000 a week. But not every week!
link to original post
Quote: acesideThe problem is not how much an AP is making a year. The main problem is I don’t know any AP who makes a living from slot machines. Surely, I’ve made several gambler friends there, but their main jobs were restaurants though.
link to original post
I have known many that made 95% of their income from slots.
Quote: acesideI guess it all depends on where you live. Outside of Vegas, slot AP opportunities are scarce. Right?
link to original post
There are more in Vegas just because there are more casinos. There are many opportunities wherever there are many casinos. Many AP's work southern California. Many work the east coast including Atlantic City, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania. That whole area can be worked by one person if they are willing to do some driving every week.
Quote: DRichQuote: ChallengedMillyI've worked a decent job for $130 a day before and it more than paid for my lifestyle at the time. I suspect, without much evidence, that AP's make roughly $200-300 a day on average with a boost to this if they do score a random jackpot, which does sometimes happen. Ultimately we know APs make enough to cover their time spent at the casino, since if they didn't, they likely would be doing something else for money/lifestyle upkeep.
link to original post
If an AP is dedicated and doesn't have leaks they can earn much more. I knew an AP in Vegas that was travelling to California at least once a week and was making $15k-$20k a month.
link to original post
ah yes.. leaks.
God at the amount of $ i blew because i was bored of doing laps.
And i rather do laps than camp out at an empty bank of buffalo Asc
Quote: DRichQuote: acesideI guess it all depends on where you live. Outside of Vegas, slot AP opportunities are scarce. Right?
link to original post
Many work the east coast including Atlantic City, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania. That whole area can be worked by one person if they are willing to do some driving every week.
link to original post
Interesting.. After you established yourself at the casinos to get free rooms, you can do 2 days in each state then drive home sunday afternoon and start over again tues morning.
Do a lap, move to a nearby casino, do a lap, have lunch, do another lap then move to another casino.
rinse/repeat for dinner
What kind of a slot AP are we talking about?
There is a vast difference between slot hustlers(aka Vultures) running around just snapping off good numbers on lower limit accumulator/variable state machines vs other types of Slot Advantage players.
Also, one must consider the person's bankroll and knowledge. One might have a good bankroll but not enough knowledge, or one might have a lot of knowledge but not enough bankroll. One might have both knowledge and bankroll, but be very risk-averse and conservative. I believe a knowledgeable, dedicated, well-banked Vulture/slot hustler can make at least $100 per hour.
There might be a slot AP who is willing to fly around the country to play 10k++ must-hits.
There are guys who only focus on good mail. >>> Earning large amounts of free play for a low cost.
There might be guys focusing on good promotions, such as loss rebates, point multipliers, drawings, etc.
There might be slot APs who focus on online bonuses and promotions.
There are many diffrent kinds of slot advantages, some people are not going to be talking about those types of plays.
When done right, all those things are worth far more than slot hustling.
There are guys who do any and all of the above Advantage Plays while focusing on whatever their biggest earning potential is at the time.
YouTube videos show pretty empty Strip Casinos nobody to pump the machines up can anyone
comment on this.
Quote: AxelWolfWhen done right, all those things are worth far more than slot hustling.
There are guys who do any and all of the above Advantage Plays while focusing on whatever their biggest earning potential is at the time.
link to original post
Yes, to make a living from being a AP requires work, like any other job.
I just do the low hanging fruit.
Vulture at my local casinos plus a few cards from friends.
(I buy them dinner at casino steakhouse)
After 2 months of no play, offers for friend #1 dry up.
Switch to friend #2 card.
Rinse repeat 6 times. After 12 months, go back to friend #1 because after a year his offers are like a new player at my casinos.
This assumes you are able to earn enough points to keep your own card at a high tier level PLUS 6 other cards to mid-tier level on their 1st (and only) day of play.
At Caesars, $50k coin-in at vp gets you 5k points (assuming $10/point) + 10k bonus points for instant Diamond level.
Quote: AxelWolfThere is too broad a brush being painted when one says "Slot AP."
What kind of a slot AP are we talking about?
There is a vast difference between slot hustlers(aka Vultures) running around just snapping off good numbers on lower limit accumulator/variable state machines vs other types of Slot Advantage players.
Also, one must consider the person's bankroll and knowledge. One might have a good bankroll but not enough knowledge, or one might have a lot of knowledge but not enough bankroll. One might have both knowledge and bankroll, but be very risk-averse and conservative. I believe a knowledgeable, dedicated, well-banked Vulture/slot hustler can make at least $100 per hour.
There might be a slot AP who is willing to fly around the country to play 10k++ must-hits.
There are guys who only focus on good mail. >>> Earning large amounts of free play for a low cost.
There might be guys focusing on good promotions, such as loss rebates, point multipliers, drawings, etc.
There might be slot APs who focus on online bonuses and promotions.
There are many diffrent kinds of slot advantages, some people are not going to be talking about those types of plays.
When done right, all those things are worth far more than slot hustling.
There are guys who do any and all of the above Advantage Plays while focusing on whatever their biggest earning potential is at the time.
link to original post
Axel is 100% correct. I think too many people here think slot AP is just doing laps looking for opportunities. The best AP's are going to casinos because they know they have an advantage, they play that advantage and then look for other opportunities like must hits etc. Personally, I still think mail and promotions offer the best opportunities.
