How much AP's make at a busy casino

How much $ slot AP's make depends on how many of them are at the casino.
That got me thinking about total overall $ from AP opportunities.

Let's take a busy AP infested casino like Borgata in AC:
https://gamingamerica.com/news/12832/nj-casino-revenue-reaches-33bn-during-fy2024-operating-profit-decreases-92

FY2024: $783M revenue

Let's say 10% of the machines are AP'able at 103% ev.
$783M x 10% = $78.3M
$78.3M x 3% = $2.35M up for grabs

If there are 100 AP's total at Borgata throughout the year:
$2.35M/100 = $23.5k each, on avg

But of course not all AP's will be there 7days/week, 10hrs+ per day.
The more part timers, the higher the full timer's avg.
And some AP's will get more plays because they camp instead of just circling.

So that's my SWAG estimate.

Quote: 100xOdds

How much $ slot AP's make depends on how many of them are at the casino.
That got my thinking about total overall AP opportunities.

Let's take a busy AP infested casino like Borgata in AC:
https://gamingamerica.com/news/12832/nj-casino-revenue-reaches-33bn-during-fy2024-operating-profit-decreases-92

FY2024: $783M revenue

Let's say 10% of the machines are AP'able at 103% ev.
$783M x 10% = $78.3M
$78.3M x 3% = $2.35M up for grabs

If there are 100 AP's total at Borgata throughout the year:
$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg

But of course not all AP's will be there 7days/week, 10hrs+ per day.
The more part timers, the higher the full timer's avg.
And some AP's will get more plays because they camp instead of just circling.

So that's my SWAG estimate.
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Are you suggesting the average Borgota AP makes less than a fast food worker?

Quote: 100xOdds

$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg

So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post

2.35/100 =0.0235 .
Is this your Scientific Wild-Ass Guess?

Also, AP machines are probably 2% at most.

Quote: aceside

Quote: 100xOdds

$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg

So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post

2.35/100 =0.0235 .
Is this your Scientific Wild-Ass Guess?

Also, AP machines are probably 2% at most.
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Also, these slots only yield a player edge a small portion of the time, so a much smaller portion of overall play should be included in your calculations.

Quote: aceside

Quote: 100xOdds

$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg

So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post

2.35/100 =0.0235 .
link to original post

Thx. corrected

Quote: billryan

Quote: 100xOdds

How much $ slot AP's make depends on how many of them are at the casino.
That got my thinking about total overall AP opportunities.

Let's take a busy AP infested casino like Borgata in AC:
https://gamingamerica.com/news/12832/nj-casino-revenue-reaches-33bn-during-fy2024-operating-profit-decreases-92

FY2024: $783M revenue

Let's say 10% of the machines are AP'able at 103% ev.
$783M x 10% = $78.3M
$78.3M x 3% = $2.35M up for grabs

If there are 100 AP's total at Borgata throughout the year:
$2.35M/100 = $24.5k each, on avg

But of course not all AP's will be there 7days/week, 10hrs+ per day.
The more part timers, the higher the full timer's avg.
And some AP's will get more plays because they camp instead of just circling.

So that's my SWAG estimate.
link to original post

Are you suggesting the average Borgota AP makes less than a fast food worker?
link to original post

But one guy hires, trains, and banks people, keeping 20 of them in rotation at one location alone for a 50% split.
Account for leakage, etc, and he could be pulling in 200k a year at just one location.

How about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.

Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.

One guy is hiring people and taking half? Yea right. Those people would work for him for a month till they tell him they’re leaving and playing on their own. This is not team card counting where you can play together as a benefit.

Quote: Sandybestdog

.....There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.

I think I would watch that !

Quote: Sandybestdog

One guy is hiring people and taking half? Yea right. Those people would work for him for a month till they tell him they’re leaving and playing on their own. This is not team card counting where you can play together as a benefit.
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I believe you are wrong on this one.

Quote: Sandybestdog

How about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.

Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.

link to original post

I used to make $10/hr playing $1/$3 no limit by just playing premium hands and set mining. I would semi-bluff with draws and fire a bet on river even if I miss.
It would be very easy to play against me so that tells you how terrible weekend poker players are.
Also, some of that $ came from hitting promos. Ie: $500 high hand , mini bad beat (full house aces beaten),etc

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Sandybestdog

How about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.

Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.

link to original post

I used to make $10/hr playing $1/$3 no limit by just playing premium hands and set mining. I would semi-bluff with draws and fire a bet on river even if I miss.
It would be very easy to play against me so that tells you how terrible weekend poker players are.
Also, some of that $ came from hitting promos. Ie: $500 high hand , mini bad beat (full house aces beaten),etc
link to original post

Too many payers in Vegas want to prove their strength and play at Mirage, Aria, Venetian, etc. If you are a competent 5/10 player play the games at Excalibur, Luxor, Treasure Island, etc. I first played casino poker at the Skyline casino and it was 7 card stud. That was before Texas Hold'em became popular and everybody played stud.

Quote: DRich

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Sandybestdog

How about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.

Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.

link to original post

I used to make $10/hr playing $1/$3 no limit by just playing premium hands and set mining. I would semi-bluff with draws and fire a bet on river even if I miss.
It would be very easy to play against me so that tells you how terrible weekend poker players are.
Also, some of that $ came from hitting promos. Ie: $500 high hand , mini bad beat (full house aces beaten),etc
link to original post

Too many payers in Vegas want to prove their strength and play at Mirage, Aria, Venetian, etc. If you are a competent 5/10 player play the games at Excalibur, Luxor, Treasure Island, etc. I first played casino poker at the Skyline casino and it was 7 card stud. That was before Texas Hold'em became popular and everybody played stud.
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i tried to be competent and move up to $2/5.. bought poker books.. read 1st few chapters then collects dust.
it felt like work.
i was ok with $10/hr since i was playing for fun.
I think most of the enjoyment came from chasing the promos. (Although I didn't enjoy how stiff my back was at the end of 6hrs sitting there with just bathroom breaks as movement.)

Quote: Sandybestdog

How about zero? That’s actually how much they’re making. There needs to be a reality show. First season, 10 “poker pros” start with $100k. They are allowed to play regular cash games at a casino. Second season, 10 “slot ap’s” play +ev casino opportunities. I guarantee you 7 lose, 2 break even and 1 wins.

Who actually believes these people are making money? They are all fighting over scraps. When they can’t find that they start lowering their standards and degening on plays that are not +ev.

One guy is hiring people and taking half? Yea right. Those people would work for him for a month till they tell him they’re leaving and playing on their own. This is not team card counting where you can play together as a benefit.
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My comment was mosly made in jest.

I have no Idea what the reality of machine vulturing is at the Borgata or anywhere, for that matter. I've done very vulturing for many years. However, I do know people who do pretty good via slot vulturing.

IF(That's a BIG IF)100xOdds calculations were accurate, I do believe a motivated, skilled individual could figure out how to hire a smaller number of people(20 is obviously absurd) to extract a lion's share of the value left on the table.

Not all employees walk. I know people who have been AP employees 15+ years; admittedly, that's not common, but it does happen more than you might think.

In a perfect world, you would rather have all the plays to yourself and no competition. But that's almost never going to happen, perhaps on a cruise ship or something very isolated.

Therefore, I do think small vulture teams can benefit each other; a well-coordinated group can freeze out much of the competition. They have the ability to camp indefinitely. There's a less likely chance they'll miss a better play because they're stuck on something of lesser value. It can also be a deterrent for other Advantage players and vultures, knowing there's a well-coordinated group in a particular Casino leading them to avoid that particular place.

I certainly understand that some people are playing lower numbers simply because they're idiots, however, that's not always the case. Sometimes there's a strategic and advantageous reason why those numbers are being played so low.

Quote: DRich

Too many payers in Vegas want to prove their strength and play at Mirage, Aria, Venetian, etc. If you are a competent 5/10 player play the games at Excalibur, Luxor, Treasure Island, etc. I first played casino poker at the Skyline casino and it was 7 card stud. That was before Texas Hold'em became popular and everybody played stud.
link to original post

So I haven’t made actual money yet, but I’ve earned a lot of EV and that’s all that matters.

https://x.com/MarleSpragg/status/1607082030881443841/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1607082030881443841&currentTweetUser=MarleSpragg

Your link doesn't work for some reason. Says something went wrong

I don’t know it worked when I clicked on it. Try this one.

https://x.com/marlespragg/status/1607082030881443841?s=46&t=CLei7APF7rNAVQN7PjmxnQ

Ok that one worked. Thanks

It's very likely that APs are only making low-to-mid 5 figures for 14ish hours a day at various casinos. Which for a retired person or someone with an unsusal lifestyle can still make a living doing something like this. That's not including the rare but "guaranteed" over a long period of time jackpot win that pushes an AP's winning %/$ into that six figure range.

We have a few APs that post here and elsewhere and they sometimes post receipts on their income level for various years.

In freemarket capitalism, all wages will fall somewhere between the lowest that the worker is willing to accept and the highest that the corporation is willing to pay.

Quote: TomG

In freemarket capitalism, all wages will fall somewhere between the lowest that the worker is willing to accept and the highest that the corporation is willing to pay.
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At least that's how it's supposed to work. We don't live in a free market though =/. Policy and candidate purchases, as well as companies forming "informal" monopolies (i.e. look at internet companies in the US), as well as companies just literally working together to keep prices high (and wages low) across the board. Why do you think companies tell you to NEVER talk salary with each other? Because they work as hard as they can to give their employees as little as humanly possible. This is why every single person SHOULD discuss their salary with every other person at their company. Come to find out you're doing the same job (or even more) and getting paid less than someone else with a better social game.

This is why capitalism is ultimately flawed... it puts money over people.

Sorry, my old man rant for the day lol


***To respond to the actual thread. This number is going to vary, wildly. My local shop is small and not worth a ton but has value... there are a total of about 25 guys I've seen hustle the place.... 5-10 are there noon to midnight, every single day, for the past year+. One finally got a lifetime ban across the country, and others will eventually... but my point is that I can still go to this casino and find plays left and right. Even with 5 FULL TIME 12pm-12am "hustlers" there. They simply don't have the numbers, or don't know how to properly use them (all I'll say). So yeah, AP results will vary wildly at best. Some of those guys are negative, even, and a couple I believe make money. Not to sound snooty but just again to show levels to the game, I don't think maybe but 1 or 2 in the 25 actually make what I would consider decent money.

Seeing if you can make more money doing the same work certainly sounds like an AP move.

I have seen vultures make a few hundred in a day. Of course I don't know if that's indicative of the norm and I didn't even watch them for very long.

They are looking for a sweet spot where the machine is not yet in a positive state but represents a discount to getting there.

On a Scarab machine for example they will play with just a few wilds on the 4th spin. They are not looking for a 9th spin someone left the machine state. Because they probably never will find such a situation.

Quote: darkoz

...On a Scarab machine for example they will play with just a few wilds on the 4th spin. They are not looking for a 9th spin someone left the machine state. Because they probably never will find such a situation.
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lol or they're like the guys near me and play the first 3-4 spins just to see if they'll get enough wilds to keep playing or leave it after spinning it 3-4 times XD.

Quote: Romes

Quote: darkoz

...On a Scarab machine for example they will play with just a few wilds on the 4th spin. They are not looking for a 9th spin someone left the machine state. Because they probably never will find such a situation.
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lol or they're like the guys near me and play the first 3-4 spins just to see if they'll get enough wilds to keep playing or leave it after spinning it 3-4 times XD.
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I think those are the anti-vultures. The ones leaving the game on the 4th spin in the cycle for the vultures

Quote: Romes

a total of about 25 guys I've seen hustle the place.... 5-10 are there noon to midnight, every single day, for the past year+. One finally got a lifetime ban across the country, and others will eventually.

I don't think maybe but 1 or 2 in the 25 actually make what I would consider decent money.
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What's your definition of decent $?

Quote: Romes

At least that's how it's supposed to work. We don't live in a free market though =/.

This is a good point. When someone goes into a casino to earn money, they are the one that controls the means of production as they are the one who decides to make a bet or not. Like in certain anti-capitalist economic systems, their income will be based on however much value their labor creates.