slot freeplay question..
So no from what it says on yours you will need to play the Freeplay and hope to hit.
Quote: allnighterWhat is a slot freeplay good for? A casino i went to had a promotion going on where if you bought so much in food you got a slot freeplay. At the time i bought the overpriced food i was thinking well that's not bad it will be like getting a discount on the food with the slot voucher. I haven't used it yet and today when i looked on the back of it the fine print says all credits must be used on same machine and any unused credits will remain on machine. So i'm confused now, i thought i was going to be able to put it in the machine and then cash out so i could get the value of the freeplay in cash but now that i read that statement it has me confused. Will i be able to cash it out on a slot machine?
Free play is exactly what it says. You get to play for free. In the case of Hooters Las Vegas, you get $200 worth of credit on a machine, which you then have to spin through until you hit a winning combination of a certain value. Which you can then take.
Other places have free play you can use, and once you have spun through the all free play, eg $25, you can cash out any winnings It is something you would have to clarfy with the casino.
The mathematical expectation of that 200 dollar free play is less than four dollars. It is an utterly absurd "freebie" offered to new account openers and is barely worth the time invested in playing on either of those two stupid machines its valid on.Quote: CroupierIn the case of Hooters Las Vegas, you get $200 worth of credit on a machine, .
The way most of these free play coupons work is that you can cash out winnings, but not unplayed credits. So if you played $10 of free play on a quarter machine at one credit per spin, you would have to play 40 credits to "launder" the free play, at which point you could cash out all your accumulated credits. If you tried to cash out after playing only 20 credits, you would get your accumulated winnings, but 20 credits would still remain on the machine.
If you want to simply obtain as close as possible to the coupon's face value, find a Jacks or Better or Bonus Poker VP machine (make sure you are playing a game that pays 2-1 for two pair), and run the credits through once. I get back about 95% of the coupon's face value, on average, when I do that.
When you think you're close to having used all the free play, cash out. Whatever remains in the machine was how much free play remains.
Here's another tidbit:
If you end up with multiple cash tickets, put them back into the machine, then cash out. That will consolidate them, so that when you go to the redemption machine you won't have to receive excess coins and small bills.
My right hand counts tens, and my left hand counts ones (one, two, three, four, five fingers out, then five, four, three, two, one back in). For my first ten spins, I hit the "repeat spin" button with my right thumb. The next ten, with my right index finger, and so on. Once I've hit the button ten times with my pinky, I know I've made my 50 spins and can cash out.
Quote: travislI'm always concerned -- perhaps needlessly -- that cashing out prematurely will wipe out whatever freeplay is left. Instead, I count on my fingers: let's say I've got $10 freeplay and I'm playing a 20¢ spin. That means I'll need 50 spins to make it through the freeplay.
My right hand counts tens, and my left hand counts ones (one, two, three, four, five fingers out, then five, four, three, two, one back in). For my first ten spins, I hit the "repeat spin" button with my right thumb. The next ten, with my right index finger, and so on. Once I've hit the button ten times with my pinky, I know I've made my 50 spins and can cash out.
Not to worry. You CAN'T wipe out whatever freeplay is left by cashing out early. It will just remain on the credit meter, waiting expectantly.
One blunder I'd like to caution against (because I've seen people do it) is hitting something big in the middle of laundering freeplay, then joyfully cashing out and forgetting the credits that are still on the machine.
Quote: mkl654321A slot free play coupon is worth (the face amount of the coupon) X (the expected return of the game you choose to play with it). So if you were in a major Strip casino and decided to use it to play nickel slots, it would be worth about 85% of its face value. If you used it to play the best video poker game available, it would be worth about 98-99% of its face value.
The way most of these free play coupons work is that you can cash out winnings, but not unplayed credits. So if you played $10 of free play on a quarter machine at one credit per spin, you would have to play 40 credits to "launder" the free play, at which point you could cash out all your accumulated credits. If you tried to cash out after playing only 20 credits, you would get your accumulated winnings, but 20 credits would still remain on the machine.
If you want to simply obtain as close as possible to the coupon's face value, find a Jacks or Better or Bonus Poker VP machine (make sure you are playing a game that pays 2-1 for two pair), and run the credits through once. I get back about 95% of the coupon's face value, on average, when I do that.
That's assuming you know the strategy, though. It's not like regular slots that are all luck.
Quote: dmThat's assuming you know the strategy, though. It's not like regular slots that are all luck.
Even if you played those games with total ignorance of the strategies, you'd still get about 96% return. Very few plays at JOB or Bonus are counterintuitive, and even when you go wrong, it doesn't cost very much. This isn't true of most other VP games, which is why I tell my slot-playing friends to launder their free play at VP, but ONLY at JOB/Bonus games, because their ignorance of the proper strategy won't hurt them much; they'll still be doing much better than on the best slot available. And of course, if they want to learn the strategies, they'll be playing in the 99% range.
Especially if the casino doesn't know you. You might be a whale. Or at least, a large porpoise. They may send you an another offer based on an expectation that isn't realized when you return if you're not really a big spender.
of course, that's my personal experience.
Other than that, play whatever suits your gambling expectations -- if max play affords the best return, I prefer that, but some prefer to make the bonus last awhile with small bets.
Quote: allnighterOne more question about this, does it matter the amount that i bet per hand? Should i bet max bet each hand or min bet each hand etc.? Thanks.
If you max bet every hand, you maximize your return, but you also have a greater chance of finishing with a sizeable loss. If you bet one credit at a time, both your total wins and your total losses will be smaller. The difference in video poker is around 1.5%, as in your overall return will be about 1.5% less when playing one coin/credit as opposed to five/maximum.
So if you want to "go for it", and don't mind possibly losing most of the free play, bet the max every hand. If, on the other hand, you want to simply launder the free play, and turn it into actual money, it's probably best to play one coin at a time.
Quote: teddysI'm with Mosca. I play it on the best-returning game--screw the variance. I just can't bring myself to play anything less than the best game in the joint. (D*mn you, Wizard!). There are times when I walk away with 50% or less of my free play value. Have I told you about the time I hit a royal playing only one coin on freeplay? :) $125 v. $1000. Still makes me angry when I think about it. Never again.
Twice I've turned $20-$30 in free slot play into $1000. Lots of times I haven't, but so what? $30 is not relevant to me in a casino, $1000 is.
Probably just a function of the people on this board. They're more concerned about getting the most "bang for the buck." Now, that's not a hard and fast rule, but most people are not going to blow their free play money on Keno. (Although I think mkl did that once and hit an 8-spot, so there you go).Quote: P90I've always been surprised at why a lot of people, who are otherwise gamblers, are so eager to "launder" their freeplay and matchplay coupons, like hedging the bets, rather than just enjoy the extra casino time and expected win. I suspect it's the desire to "stick it to the Man" by hedging out his freeplay coupons rather than gambling them. Not that the Man cares.
Quote: mkl654321Even if you played those games with total ignorance of the strategies, you'd still get about 96% return. Very few plays at JOB or Bonus are counterintuitive, and even when you go wrong, it doesn't cost very much. This isn't true of most other VP games, which is why I tell my slot-playing friends to launder their free play at VP, but ONLY at JOB/Bonus games, because their ignorance of the proper strategy won't hurt them much; they'll still be doing much better than on the best slot available. And of course, if they want to learn the strategies, they'll be playing in the 99% range.
I personally find most of the holds to not be intuitive. If 96% is realistic I am very much surprised.
Quote: teddysProbably just a function of the people on this board. They're more concerned about getting the most "bang for the buck."
However, you get the most bang for the buck by playing through the freeplay, not hedging, if you assign any utility to the act of gambling itself (and people who don't, don't go to the casinos). If you don't, it's merely equal.
I don't think people hedge. Hedging would reduce the overall E.V. of the coupon/freeplay. I think people look for the best game, whether it be video poker, blackjack, player in baccarat ... whatever.Quote: P90However, you get the most bang for the buck by playing through the freeplay, not hedging, if you assign any utility to the act of gambling itself (and people who don't, don't go to the casinos). If you don't, it's merely equal.
This doesn't apply to the rest of the punters who treat coupons/freeplay however they wish. [/gamblingsnob].
Quote: teddysI don't think people hedge. Hedging would reduce the overall E.V. of the coupon/freeplay.
Quite a few times on this forum I've seen questions of how to better hedge them and mentions of hedging coupons. One player had to almost collude with the dealer to bet on all 38 roulette fields. That is what puzzles me.
Quote: MoscaTwice I've turned $20-$30 in free slot play into $1000. Lots of times I haven't, but so what? $30 is not relevant to me in a casino, $1000 is.
There's a interesting psychology in play here. $30 is "not relevant" to you "in a casino". Does that mean it WOULD be relevant out there in the real world?
Obviously, you're aware that if you could simply exchange that $20-30 for cash, you would wind up with more money in the long run than if you stuck it in a slot machine every time, $1000 jackpots notwithstanding. So if they simply handed you a $20 bill every time, would your first urge be to stick it in a slot machine, because $20 isn't "relevant"?
I was once told by a slot manager at Green Valley Ranch that the casino recovered between 90-95% of the free play that was used. This meant that people almost always kept playing until they went broke--the only people who walked away with anything were those people who hit HUGE jackpots. I was incredulous at this, but then I started watching the behavior of people on "free play days". Hardly anyone cashed out--even when they'd built their credits up to $200 or more. It was "free money" to them, so they went for broke (and achieved, much more often than not, that state of "broke").
I realize I think in a very weird way, but to me, $20 worth of free play is worth $18, and I try to get that $18 back out of the casino. I seem to be one of only five or six people on the planet who try to do so.
Quote: dmI personally find most of the holds to not be intuitive. If 96% is realistic I am very much surprised.
There are only a few decisions that are both not obvious, AND making the wrong decision costs any significant amount. For instance, with 66789, you should keep the pair, but drawing to the straight instead only costs you about a twentieth of a bet. With AQJ32, you keep the QJ only, but keeping AQJ only costs about that same twentieth of a bet. A session's worth of small booboos like this might add up to, say, minus two bets in EV.
(Edit: my estimates of .05 bets are from fuzzy memory, and I could be somewhat off--the EV loss from making the wrong play isn't all that important to me once I know the game cold.)
Quote: mkl654321I realize I think in a very weird way, but to me, $20 worth of free play is worth $18, and I try to get that $18 back out of the casino. I seem to be one of only five or six people on the planet who try to do so.
Necessarily $18 cash or $18 EV? I'm mostly puzzled by the "put half on red and half on black" vs "put it all on red" psychology.
Quote: P90Necessarily $18 cash or $18 EV? I'm mostly puzzled by the "put half on red and half on black" vs "put it all on red" psychology.
Well, in my little AP world (which, according to some people who will remain nameless, doesn't exist), I want my EV to BE cash. If I put $5000 in a VP machine and I have a 1% +EV, I just want my $50, every single time. Variance is my enemy.
So since the free play I get is a part (often, the most significant, or even the sole part) of my +EV, I don't want to gamble with it--it's my profit. So I would rather have its cash value.
The psychology of hedging in general is related to this. If you DON'T want to gamble, you hedge. This is most often done in order to protect an already realized gain. If I am holding two $25 matchplays in my hand, I have gained--those matchplays are worth about $24 combined. It would hurt more to lose that $24 (by betting each of them in turn, and losing both) than it would feel good to win an additional $26 (by betting each of them in turn, and winning both). Obviously, there are quite a few people who feel the exact opposite way. If those people weren't in the (vast) majority, there probably wouldn't be any such thing as matchplay coupons.
Interesting. So if there is a quarter 9/6 Jacks game, and a nickel 8/5 Jacks, which game will you play? The nickel jacks will get you closest to your expected return for that session, but the 9/6 Jacks will give you a bigger expected return long-term.Quote: mkl654321I realize I think in a very weird way, but to me, $20 worth of free play is worth $18, and I try to get that $18 back out of the casino. I seem to be one of only five or six people on the planet who try to do so.
The best game to play is 9/6 pennies; Oh how I love that game at my local casino...
I don't think Mosca's playing $5 slots is that bad of an idea. He is trading long-term return for high short-term variance, which is kind of his M.O. otherwise if you read his posts. Plus he is playing the best-returning slots ($5 denomination).
Once again, you are going against your position of E.V. being the only consideration. If you wanted the best return, you should bet them each in turn on the best returning game: usually blackjack, but occasionally Three Card Poker if they accept it there, or the Player bet in Baccarat. Hedging would get you minisculely less, because you'd be making two bad bets simultaneously. (I assume you'd play B/P in Bacc or P/DP in Craps rather than both sides of an even money Roulette bet).Quote: mkl654321The psychology of hedging in general is related to this. If you DON'T want to gamble, you hedge. This is most often done in order to protect an already realized gain. If I am holding two $25 matchplays in my hand, I have gained--those matchplays are worth about $24 combined. It would hurt more to lose that $24 (by betting each of them in turn, and losing both) than it would feel good to win an additional $26 (by betting each of them in turn, and winning both). Obviously, there are quite a few people who feel the exact opposite way. If those people weren't in the (vast) majority, there probably wouldn't be any such thing as matchplay coupons.
I apologize if I misstated your position but you seem to be an +E.V. at all costs, variance be damned, guy based on your posts in the insurance thread and others.
Quote: teddysInteresting. So if there is a quarter 9/6 Jacks game, and a nickel 8/5 Jacks, which game will you play? The nickel jacks will get you closest to your expected return for that session, but the 9/6 Jacks will give you a bigger expected return long-term.
The best game to play is 9/6 pennies; Oh how I love that game at my local casino...
I don't think Mosca's playing $5 slots is that bad of an idea. He is trading long-term return for high short-term variance, which is kind of his M.O. otherwise if you read his posts. Plus he is playing the best-returning slots ($5 denomination).
I will play the quarter 9/6, one coin at a time. I could play the nickel game, one coin at a time, but that would be tedious as hell, and I would really be giving up a lot: 2.2% for the 8/5 instead of 9/6, and 1.5% (roughly) for no max-coin royal bonus. I won't play the nickel game for max coin, even though it would be not much worse than playing single-coin 9/6, because that would increase my variance unnecessarily.
Quote: teddysOnce again, you are going against your position of E.V. being the only consideration. If you wanted the best return, you should bet them each in turn on the best returning game: usually blackjack, but occasionally Three Card Poker if they accept it there, or the Player bet in Baccarat. Hedging would get you minisculely less, because you'd be making two bad bets simultaneously. (I assume you'd play B/P in Bacc or P/DP in Craps rather than both sides of an even money Roulette bet).
I apologize if I misstated your position but you seem to be an +E.V. at all costs, variance be damned, guy based on your posts in the insurance thread and others.
I'm not that doctrinaire about it. I consider matchplays, free play, etc. to be my paycheck, so I will take out a bit of -EV insurance to protect that. Also note that when I do offsetting matchplays, I'm not sacrificing any EV; I have to bet them once each in any case. Same with free play--I'm giving up maybe 2% in order to simply collect my "paycheck" rather than gamble with it. We all buy auto, fire, life, etc. insurance even though it's probably -EV.
Quote: teddysInteresting. So if there is a quarter 9/6 Jacks game, and a nickel 8/5 Jacks, which game will you play? The nickel jacks will get you closest to your expected return for that session, but the 9/6 Jacks will give you a bigger expected return long-term.
The best game to play is 9/6 pennies; Oh how I love that game at my local casino...
I don't think Mosca's playing $5 slots is that bad of an idea. He is trading long-term return for high short-term variance, which is kind of his M.O. otherwise if you read his posts. Plus he is playing the best-returning slots ($5 denomination).
I gamble for the thrill, not for the money, or the edge. I'd make far more money, and it would be a lot easier, if I'd just go to work that day. I love the moment while the wheel is spinning, or right before the cards are turned... that moment represents potential. There is more value to me in 3 shots for a potential $5000 than there is in 300 shots at a potential $27, regardless of the odds involved. $27 is half a tank of gas; $5000 is a week in Hawaii.
But again, it doesn't matter what I actually do with the money, win or lose. Right up front: the value to me is in the emotions and the thrill. That is what I pay for, and that is where the free play has the most value to me. We should all do what satisfies us; what is right for one is not necessarily right for the other. Different goals.
But it's hard to understand hedging or slowplaying amounts like $25, a single blackjack bet. With a good number of coupons the relative variance goes down anyway.
Sure you are. Just not on that specific game. Betting red/red in succession is the same E.V. as red/black on the same spin. But betting two successive hands of blackjack would get a higher return than either of those.Quote: mkl654321Also note that when I do offsetting matchplays, I'm not sacrificing any EV; I have to bet them once each in any case.
Of course this is all academic hair-splitting. But isn't that what this board is about? :)
When hedging at Roulette 2 times out of 38 you will lose everything. 36 times out of 38 you will win $25. If you hedge further by throwing a few chips on the 0/00 that eats into even more of your E.V. Not very exciting for me, but I can see why you do it. I would rather play Blackjack or Bacc-Player and ~~50% of the time win $50, and the other ~~50% of the time lose $25. Personal preference. Why? When I'm working with "free money" from the casinos I'm willing to take more of a risk. However, if someone handed me a $1,000,000 table games voucher and said you have to bet this, damn right I would hedge. Go figure.
Quote: mkl654321There are only a few decisions that are both not obvious, AND making the wrong decision costs any significant amount. For instance, with 66789, you should keep the pair, but drawing to the straight instead only costs you about a twentieth of a bet. With AQJ32, you keep the QJ only, but keeping AQJ only costs about that same twentieth of a bet. A session's worth of small booboos like this might add up to, say, minus two bets in EV.
(Edit: my estimates of .05 bets are from fuzzy memory, and I could be somewhat off--the EV loss from making the wrong play isn't all that important to me once I know the game cold.)
I don't consider it intuitive to hold a small pair that pays nothing, or holding any unpaired high cards. Your giving the cost of the "next best" hold. I don't know why. Many people know very little about probability and would not be making the guesses you have assumed. But, granted, if the guesser guesses the second best hold maybe 96% is accurate.
I've noticed the intuition for first-time non-strategy players is to hold any combination of high cards over a pair. That costs you a lot. If there could be any piece of advice I'd give to JOB newbies it would be hold low pairs.Quote: dmI don't consider it intuitive to hold a small pair that pays nothing, or holding any unpaired high cards. Your giving the cost of the "next best" hold. I don't know why. Many people know very little about probability and would not be making the guesses you have assumed. But, granted, if the guesser guesses the second best hold maybe 96% is accurate.
Quote: teddysSure you are. Just not on that specific game. Betting red/red in succession is the same E.V. as red/black on the same spin. But betting two successive hands of blackjack would get a higher return than either of those.
Of course this is all academic hair-splitting. But isn't that what this board is about? :)
When hedging at Roulette 2 times out of 38 you will lose everything. 36 times out of 38 you will win $25. If you hedge further by throwing a few chips on the 0/00 that eats into even more of your E.V. Not very exciting for me, but I can see why you do it. I would rather play Blackjack or Bacc-Player and ~~50% of the time win $50, and the other ~~50% of the time lose $25. Personal preference.
It seems to be the result of extreme contempt for the casinos. Hedge that MP so that you can blow $100 on fine dining. I personally
always buy in for a little more than the MP amount and play some, not just one hand. So, I guess I'm making up for the hit and run specialists who scurry all around.
Maximize its value, but measure that value on your own scale. No one else can tell you what makes you happy. Make YOURSELF happy.
Quote: dmI don't consider it intuitive to hold a small pair that pays nothing, or holding any unpaired high cards. Your giving the cost of the "next best" hold. I don't know why. Many people know very little about probability and would not be making the guesses you have assumed. But, granted, if the guesser guesses the second best hold maybe 96% is accurate.
My point was that in most instances, the wrong play isn't that costly to make, unless that wrong play is patently ridiculous. And when you say that "a small pair pays nothing", that's not really true--it has the potential to pay at least 2-1 if it improves. But even if you misjudge that and go for the straight instead, the cost is quite small. If you're a blackjack player, it's like standing on 16 vs. a 10 rather than hitting.
Quote: dmIt seems to be the result of extreme contempt for the casinos. Hedge that MP so that you can blow $100 on fine dining. I personally
always buy in for a little more than the MP amount and play some, not just one hand. So, I guess I'm making up for the hit and run specialists who scurry all around.
Not exactly. It's a REFUSAL to hold the contempt for money that 99% of people who enter a casino acquire the moment they enter the building. If people thought in terms of the amount of time they had to work for the money they're betting, or the goods and services the money could have bought, casinos would be deserted. But fortunately for the casinos, the "what the hell" attitude exists up to and well beyond sums that would have appalled people to think they would have risked, prior to their arrival at the casino, when their brains were still functioning above 10% efficiency (the casino is artfully constructed to make your brain STOP working).
# 4 to a flush (1.2766)
# Unsuited TJQK(0.8723)
# Low pair (0.8237)
# 4 to an outside straight with 0-2 high cards (0.6809)
The straight costs you .1428 units. If you are playing max bets on the quarters, that's 17.85 cents per occurrence, enough to take a little bite out of your HE. The only time you wouldn't keep your low pair is with TTJQK. I don't know how often that comparison appears however.
With respect to the freeplay, I would play it in one of two ways. If you are into money conservation, you play it at the game with the lowest variance, which I believe is Pick-em at 15.(my favorite VP game because the strategy is very simple and is a great game when full-pay is offered). The problem with Pick-em is that it is very difficult to find a full-pay machine and it's very hard to remember the strategy if you don't play it often enough. 9-6 JOB is the second best choice with a variance of 19.5
If you don't care about variance however with the view that it's the casino's money, then stick into a Megabucks machine and go for gold!
However, my view is the same as MKL's: the freeplay is just a function of your direct return on a machine, so why play it any differently?
Quote: DJTeddyBearf you end up with multiple cash tickets, put them back into the machine, then cash out. That will consolidate them, so that when you go to the redemption machine you won't have to receive excess coins and small bills.
Late reply, sorry.
I've seen some ticket-cashing machines in Vegas that allow you to cash out several tickets, rather than paying off after putting one in. I forget where exactly, but I think it was an MGM property on the Strip, possibly the Montecarlo.
Of course your method does not depend on following instructions on a screen.
Quote: boymimboActually in Full Pay JOB (Wizard's chart), the advice is:
# 4 to a flush (1.2766)
# Unsuited TJQK(0.8723)
# Low pair (0.8237)
# 4 to an outside straight with 0-2 high cards (0.6809)
The straight costs you .1428 units. If you are playing max bets on the quarters, that's 17.85 cents per occurrence, enough to take a little bite out of your HE. The only time you wouldn't keep your low pair is with TTJQK. I don't know how often that comparison appears however.
A couple of notes on the above:
4 to an outside straight "with 0-2 high cards" wouldn't have the same EV for all hands. For instance, QJ109x would obviously be worth quite a bit more than 3456x. Breaking a pair to draw to the former hand would be a relatively small error; breaking a pair to draw to the latter would be a fairly large one. I don't know if the Wiz's figure is an average of all those EVs or not.
As it's been a while since I played 9/6 JOB (it's a game I rarely play voluntarily; I hate it), I don't recall what the EV of KQJ9 is, as in, do you break KQJ99. My instinct says "no"; my laziness says "who cares".
No. The only time you break up a pair for a straight draw is breaking up 10-10 when you have 10-J-Q-K. This situation has turned up about two or three times over my lifetime of 9/6 play. So your instinct and laziness are both correct.Quote: mkl654321As it's been a while since I played 9/6 JOB (it's a game I rarely play voluntarily; I hate it), I don't recall what the EV of KQJ9 is, as in, do you break KQJ99. My instinct says "no"; my laziness says "who cares".
Quote: mkl654321My point was that in most instances, the wrong play isn't that costly to make, unless that wrong play is patently ridiculous. And when you say that "a small pair pays nothing", that's not really true--it has the potential to pay at least 2-1 if it improves. But even if you misjudge that and go for the straight instead, the cost is quite small. If you're a blackjack player, it's like standing on 16 vs. a 10 rather than hitting.
My point was that a small pair pays nothing unless improved. Might some decide to go for a chance a chance at 800 to 1?
