Banned from Casino for hitting a jackpot
February 12th, 2024 at 9:17:22 PM
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Hello all, wait to you hear this. A friend of mine asked me not to post this because he’s super underground and private but I had to share to get some input. A few weeks ago he and a friend hit a jackpot on a slot machine. It was over 10,000 but under 20,000 (don’t want to be too specific for privacy concerns), anyways he and his friend built a ticket up 200.00 each a night prior and said the next day they will use the ticket for a specific machine. These two friends share money all the time on slot machines, but his friend hit the button and my friend claimed the jackpot to the slot lead. The slot lead was specifically asked if it’s okay for my friend claim the taxes and the jackpot even though he didn’t hit the spin button, and the slot lead said it was fine and paid my friend out. Ten days later my friend gets a call from director of security saying the directors of the casino had a meeting and he his friend are both permently banned.
Here’s the thing. Both players are AP’s but are also huge gamblers and play live table blackjack on certain promotion days when there’s rebates involved etc so they get a better return. They also have been coming there many years and are people who are respectful and don’t cause problems. I personally see people do what my friend did all the time. Check the slot pulls on YouTube and you see someone hitting the spin button and hitting a jackpot and then the big jackpot guy on YouTube claims the taxes.
At most this in my opinion should be a warning. What steps should he do to get unbanned? Should he get a lawyer because the slot lead said it was okay and verified the jackpot, that should be on the casino. Should he contact the gaming commision? This is absurd and I have never seen this in my life. They weren’t trying to be sneaky and asked the slot lead twice for permission if it was okay before they went and did what they did.
Their treating these two high limit players like complete garbage. Need to hear your guys input on how my friend should handle this matter. He’s look out in massive amounts of free play until he is banned, so he needs to act very quickly.
Here’s the thing. Both players are AP’s but are also huge gamblers and play live table blackjack on certain promotion days when there’s rebates involved etc so they get a better return. They also have been coming there many years and are people who are respectful and don’t cause problems. I personally see people do what my friend did all the time. Check the slot pulls on YouTube and you see someone hitting the spin button and hitting a jackpot and then the big jackpot guy on YouTube claims the taxes.
At most this in my opinion should be a warning. What steps should he do to get unbanned? Should he get a lawyer because the slot lead said it was okay and verified the jackpot, that should be on the casino. Should he contact the gaming commision? This is absurd and I have never seen this in my life. They weren’t trying to be sneaky and asked the slot lead twice for permission if it was okay before they went and did what they did.
Their treating these two high limit players like complete garbage. Need to hear your guys input on how my friend should handle this matter. He’s look out in massive amounts of free play until he is banned, so he needs to act very quickly.
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.
February 12th, 2024 at 9:25:44 PM
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Do you want to pay me or another lawyer for the long answer or get the free short answer - which is, they have no case.
Only one sentence of everything you wrote above has any relevance to the answer.
Only one sentence of everything you wrote above has any relevance to the answer.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 12th, 2024 at 9:29:04 PM
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They have no case because it’s private property, perhaps. But I still am insisting on my friend on getting the gaming commission involved because that definately should be a warning, not a perm ban on first offense.
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.
February 12th, 2024 at 9:44:31 PM
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Gaming won't care if your friends were banned the casino was well within in their rights.
I think Legislation was recently passed in LV putting a 2 year expiry on Trespass.
I think Legislation was recently passed in LV putting a 2 year expiry on Trespass.
February 12th, 2024 at 9:54:29 PM
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The slot lead gave the okay though. That’s what makes this very tricky. He should of never ok’d the jackpot to be in the other persons name. He himself went against casino policy and he should be the one to blame. If my friend knew he would get in trouble over this, he wouldn’t of done it. He has seen people do this all the time and thought it wasn’t a big deal, since they shared the money. People do this all the time in YouTube with slot pulls and the owner of the YouTube channel claims the jackpots ..
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.
February 12th, 2024 at 10:15:42 PM
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Quote: MathNeverLiesThe slot lead gave the okay though. That’s what makes this very tricky. He should of never ok’d the jackpot to be in the other persons name. He himself went against casino policy and he should be the one to blame. If my friend knew he would get in trouble over this, he wouldn’t of done it. He has seen people do this all the time and thought it wasn’t a big deal, since they shared the money. People do this all the time in YouTube with slot pulls and the owner of the YouTube channel claims the jackpots ..
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It's not tricky, no gaming reg/law was broken by the casino Gaming won't help you.
The Casino has the right to refuse service end of story your friends lose.
February 12th, 2024 at 11:57:32 PM
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Quote: rainmanQuote: MathNeverLiesThe slot lead gave the okay though. That’s what makes this very tricky. He should of never ok’d the jackpot to be in the other persons name. He himself went against casino policy and he should be the one to blame. If my friend knew he would get in trouble over this, he wouldn’t of done it. He has seen people do this all the time and thought it wasn’t a big deal, since they shared the money. People do this all the time in YouTube with slot pulls and the owner of the YouTube channel claims the jackpots ..
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It's not tricky, no gaming reg/law was broken by the casino Gaming won't help you.
The Casino has the right to refuse service end of story your friends lose.
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If this happened in an atlantic-city casino, your boys can fight it.
Otherwise as rainman says, they can refuse service if they wish
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 12:23:01 AM
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I personally think your Friend and his Partner should have recorded the Slot Lead who said what they did was okay. Then if anything with a filmed consent they could have covered their asses if anything bad happened . With no filming the Slot Lead's permission they might be out of luck since there's no actual proof that the Slot Lead said that what they were doing is okay. It would be like a Husband asking a Slot Lead if his Wife can collect his free play for him while he's out of town tomorrow, the Slot Lead says something like,"Oh yeah, that's fine if your wife collects your free play for you while you're out of town, and the Husband NOT filming the Slot Lead's permission and the wife collecting her Husband's free play and them both being permanently banned from the Casino.
Last edited by: Nathan on Feb 13, 2024
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
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February 13th, 2024 at 1:05:50 AM
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Quote: MathNeverLiesTen days later my friend gets a call from director of security saying the directors of the casino had a meeting and he his friend are both permently banned.
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(Heavily truncated)
Was a specific reason for the ban given?
Did your friend and friend get letters explaining the ban?
May the cards fall in your favor.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:30:34 AM
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This happened in a casino in Delaware. The director of security said the reason was because said person,!claimed a jackpot but didn’t hit the spin button. People do this all the time. I think he’s being profiled but I do know it doesn’t help that it’s a jackpot 10,000 and more. I heard when someone hits a 10k or more handpay, it automatically gets picked up by surveillance to verify who hit the jackpot.
Last edited by: MathNeverLies on Feb 13, 2024
Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.
February 13th, 2024 at 6:06:31 AM
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Tax fraud is still tax fraud even if a random party tells you they think it is okay. The casinos are in a tight spot here because the amounts of taxes that can be avoided by transferring a 5-figure jackpot are significant. There is also the possibility that the customers are doing this to launder money, so this is another reason management might have zero tolerance.
But the elephant in the room is that you mention rebates. Transferring wins from one player to another during a loss rebate promo is something I would not tolerate for a second if I was in charge of a casino.
But the elephant in the room is that you mention rebates. Transferring wins from one player to another during a loss rebate promo is something I would not tolerate for a second if I was in charge of a casino.
Gambling is a math contest where the score is tracked in dollars. Try not to get a negative score.
February 13th, 2024 at 6:21:12 AM
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Quote: MathNeverLiesThis happened in a casino in Delaware. The director of security said the reason was because said person,!claimed a jackpot but didn’t hit the spin button. People do this all the time. I think he’s being profiled but I do know it doesn’t help that it’s a jackpot 10,000 and more. I heard when someone hits a 10k or more handpay, it automatically gets picked up by surveillance to verify who hit the jackpot.
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There were news reports about two Friends, a man and a woman who were at the Casino together. She wasn't playing, she was just chatting and hanging out with him . The man was playing with his money on the machine. He asked her to push the button "for luck," and she did and lo and behold , the spin won a HUGE Jackpot. The Casino determined that she was the rightful winner since she pressed the button even though it was his money in the machine. The woman cold heartedly took all the money, didn't even offer him any money. She even cold heartedly told Security something like,"Make sure this guy doesn't follow me for any of the Jackpot money. "Pure cold hearted. A few days later she texted him saying,"Still hate me?" He responded something like,"How could you do that to me? I thought we were Friends!" She responded,"I miss you!" She was pure cold hearted. Didn't even say something like,"You're totally right. I shouldn't have taken the entire Jackpot that rightfully should have been yours. I'll give you half of the winnings." He later responded something like,"You messed with the wrong person by stealing my Jackpot money. You've now made a huge enemy." She apparently said something like,"I was going to give him some of the Jackpot money, but now that he threatened me, I'm not giving him any of the Jackpot money." He apparently tried to sue her for the Jackpot money but was told he waited too long to try to sue. The whole thing was a mess. In a nutshell, the only person who should spin a slot button is the one who actually has the money in the machine.
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
February 13th, 2024 at 6:58:50 AM
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One can't fight a trespass unless the trespass was for race or religion.
I don't think you have a legal case.
I'm reading a thread in town of a lady who was trespassed from McDonald for telling the manager, "I am calling corporate." After she was refused a remake of her burger. The restaurant has the right to refuse service and trespass warn. Unless it is about race or religion.
I think the only way is to brown nose the casino. But that may not work.
I don't think you have a legal case.
I'm reading a thread in town of a lady who was trespassed from McDonald for telling the manager, "I am calling corporate." After she was refused a remake of her burger. The restaurant has the right to refuse service and trespass warn. Unless it is about race or religion.
I think the only way is to brown nose the casino. But that may not work.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Feb 13, 2024
Pray for protection from enemies and witchcraft.
February 13th, 2024 at 7:12:33 AM
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Quote: NathanQuote: MathNeverLiesThis happened in a casino in Delaware. The director of security said the reason was because said person,!claimed a jackpot but didn’t hit the spin button. People do this all the time. I think he’s being profiled but I do know it doesn’t help that it’s a jackpot 10,000 and more. I heard when someone hits a 10k or more handpay, it automatically gets picked up by surveillance to verify who hit the jackpot.
link to original post
There were news reports about two Friends, a man and a woman who were at the Casino together. She wasn't playing, she was just chatting and hanging out with him . The man was playing with his money on the machine. He asked her to push the button "for luck," and she did and lo and behold , the spin won a HUGE Jackpot. The Casino determined that she was the rightful winner since she pressed the button even though it was his money in the machine. The woman cold heartedly took all the money, didn't even offer him any money. She even cold heartedly told Security something like,"Make sure this guy doesn't follow me for any of the Jackpot money. "Pure cold hearted. A few days later she texted him saying,"Still hate me?" He responded something like,"How could you do that to me? I thought we were Friends!" She responded,"I miss you!" She was pure cold hearted. Didn't even say something like,"You're totally right. I shouldn't have taken the entire Jackpot that rightfully should have been yours. I'll give you half of the winnings." He later responded something like,"You messed with the wrong person by stealing my Jackpot money. You've now made a huge enemy." She apparently said something like,"I was going to give him some of the Jackpot money, but now that he threatened me, I'm not giving him any of the Jackpot money." He apparently tried to sue her for the Jackpot money but was told he waited too long to try to sue. The whole thing was a mess. In a nutshell, the only person who should spin a slot button is the one who actually has the money in the machine.
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Maybe, not a total loss. He discovered that she wasn't a decent friend. I would probably want to see who would fail this test.
Pray for protection from enemies and witchcraft.
February 13th, 2024 at 7:21:32 AM
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Quote: Nathan
There were news reports about two Friends, a man and a woman who were at the Casino together.
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You and your anecdotes. Don't you ever cite sources?
"This one time, at band camp"
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
February 13th, 2024 at 7:54:17 AM
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Quote: MentalTax fraud is still tax fraud even if a random party tells you they think it is okay. The casinos are in a tight spot here because the amounts of taxes that can be avoided by transferring a 5-figure jackpot are significant. There is also the possibility that the customers are doing this to launder money, so this is another reason management might have zero tolerance.
But the elephant in the room is that you mention rebates. Transferring wins from one player to another during a loss rebate promo is something I would not tolerate for a second if I was in charge of a casino.
link to original post
Welcome back, Mental!
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
February 13th, 2024 at 9:21:57 AM
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Quote: OnceDearQuote: Nathan
There were news reports about two Friends, a man and a woman who were at the Casino together.
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You and your anecdotes. Don't you ever cite sources?
"This one time, at band camp"
link to original post
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article142963604.html
Is this a good enough source for you? ;)
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
February 13th, 2024 at 9:53:24 AM
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They should contact their host and request a call from the head of marketing or general manager of the casino. If this doesn't work... either they're not "huge gamblers" or it wasn't about the jackpot.
February 13th, 2024 at 10:16:21 AM
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That's actually more or less correct.
I've tried it both ways. When I was effectively banned from a casino chain years ago (and this was before I was a lawyer), handicapped such that I couldn't play blackjack beyond a small spread, I wrote a detailed complaint about the matter to gaming, never even heard back. The gist of my complaint was that they could ban me, but not handicap me, no one cared to even respond. Then I tried waiting a while and coming back, openly, not hiding my identity, the notes were still in the system and they confronted me again.
Then I waited another year and came back, no one did anything, and by then I was friends with one of the very top executives at that casino chain, and was told by that person that I was back in.
I've also filed gaming complaints for clients as an attorney, at least for those I did get a response, even took at least one all the way to hearing, but they always seem to come back with some rationale for why something or other applies and the something or other we were complaining about does not.
Actually, interestingly, Gaming's official position is that they will not get into gaming disputes between customers and the casinos, but if the complaint is couched in a certain way, they are compelled to look at it, still doesn't mean that you will prevail.
The above matter has zero chance of success other than through back channels and if they push it via gaming or legal channels they might end up banned at more casinos for being a known PITA.
I've tried it both ways. When I was effectively banned from a casino chain years ago (and this was before I was a lawyer), handicapped such that I couldn't play blackjack beyond a small spread, I wrote a detailed complaint about the matter to gaming, never even heard back. The gist of my complaint was that they could ban me, but not handicap me, no one cared to even respond. Then I tried waiting a while and coming back, openly, not hiding my identity, the notes were still in the system and they confronted me again.
Then I waited another year and came back, no one did anything, and by then I was friends with one of the very top executives at that casino chain, and was told by that person that I was back in.
I've also filed gaming complaints for clients as an attorney, at least for those I did get a response, even took at least one all the way to hearing, but they always seem to come back with some rationale for why something or other applies and the something or other we were complaining about does not.
Actually, interestingly, Gaming's official position is that they will not get into gaming disputes between customers and the casinos, but if the complaint is couched in a certain way, they are compelled to look at it, still doesn't mean that you will prevail.
The above matter has zero chance of success other than through back channels and if they push it via gaming or legal channels they might end up banned at more casinos for being a known PITA.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
February 13th, 2024 at 10:25:48 AM
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I know casinos require collection of SS numbers for from patrons winning over $10,000 in a day. This is mandatory and includes cumulative wins, not just single or even multiple jackpots.
If you keep winning on your Player's card and the wins exceed ten grand in a single day they will lock your card until they can collect the information needed to satisfy the US anti- money laundering laws.
Generally people can let someone else claim the jackpot but I believe being over $10,000 they feel this is some form of escaping tax law requirements which puts them in jeopardy.
Additionally you mentioned these two players are AP's with freeplay to collect so the casino may feel this was am attempt to do something criminal. Unfortunately casinos lump advantage play in with criminality.
I will look up Delaware law but for the moment it doesn't look like your guys have a case.
If you keep winning on your Player's card and the wins exceed ten grand in a single day they will lock your card until they can collect the information needed to satisfy the US anti- money laundering laws.
Generally people can let someone else claim the jackpot but I believe being over $10,000 they feel this is some form of escaping tax law requirements which puts them in jeopardy.
Additionally you mentioned these two players are AP's with freeplay to collect so the casino may feel this was am attempt to do something criminal. Unfortunately casinos lump advantage play in with criminality.
I will look up Delaware law but for the moment it doesn't look like your guys have a case.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 10:46:07 AM
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Delaware is not good. It's like Nevada. Your guys can be excluded for no reason.
NJ and Pennsylvania have language that a crime must have been committed on the premises and if open to the general public you can use lack of a crime as a defense. But this didn't happen in NJ or Pennsylvania
NJ and Pennsylvania have language that a crime must have been committed on the premises and if open to the general public you can use lack of a crime as a defense. But this didn't happen in NJ or Pennsylvania
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 11:59:50 AM
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Quote: darkozI know casinos require collection of SS numbers for from patrons winning over $10,000 in a day. This is mandatory and includes cumulative wins, not just single or even multiple jackpots.
If you keep winning on your Player's card and the wins exceed ten grand in a single day they will lock your card until they can collect the information needed to satisfy the US anti- money laundering laws.
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I've never felt the need to count my wins on VP or Bubble Craps in aggregate since I have no hand pays. But this little insight from DarkOz makes me think their computers keep a running tally of coin-in or coin-out for the day on machines played and keep a running total for the day and there's a trip wire at $10,000 bet for the day, especially if they don't have your SS#. I've said before I've only had one session above $10K coin-in, but it might have gone over the date line but not the gaming day. My card wasn't locked. But if I'm going to have to worry about getting 1,666 points in one day (@ $6/point) on the Bubble Craps machine, maybe I'd better take it to the real craps table so my Player's Card doesn't alert the CTR computer. Or do what I saw someone else do when they ran up $200 to $1,300 on the machine, just don't put your card in the machine.
February 13th, 2024 at 12:08:15 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeQuote: darkozI know casinos require collection of SS numbers for from patrons winning over $10,000 in a day. This is mandatory and includes cumulative wins, not just single or even multiple jackpots.
If you keep winning on your Player's card and the wins exceed ten grand in a single day they will lock your card until they can collect the information needed to satisfy the US anti- money laundering laws.
link to original post
I've never felt the need to count my wins on VP or Bubble Craps in aggregate since I have no hand pays. But this little insight from DarkOz makes me think their computers keep a running tally of coin-in or coin-out for the day on machines played and keep a running total for the day and there's a trip wire at $10,000 bet for the day, especially if they don't have your SS#. I've said before I've only had one session above $10K coin-in, but it might have gone over the date line but not the gaming day. My card wasn't locked. But if I'm going to have to worry about getting 1,666 points in one day (@ $6/point) on the Bubble Craps machine, maybe I'd better take it to the real craps table so my Player's Card doesn't alert the CTR computer. Or do what I saw someone else do when they ran up $200 to $1,300 on the machine, just don't put your card in the machine.
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They definitely keep running tally.
There definitely is a tripwire
It is not for amounts wagered. It is for WINS in excess of $10,000. Losses do not trip the wire.
This has happened to me at least twice in two different states. I was multicarding using the doey/don't and one side was being exorbitantly punished while the other was naturally being exorbitantly rewarded such that the $10,000 for both sides (one lost, one won) was passed.
In both instances in two different states the winning card was pin locked while the losing card was not.
Bringing the actual players up they were informed they had to supply their social security numbers for tax reporting requirements due to their $10,000 + win.
And if you are wondering they refused to hand over their SSN because in reality they hadn't won $10,000 and I wound up with worthless cards and took the loss.
So this is a concern I am always mindful of.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 12:15:08 PM
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So it's about collecting vouchers & cash totaling $10K or more in a day, or inserting vouchers & cash totaling more than $10K in a day, that kind of thing. The amount of points I get on my card doesn't matter. But my card being in the machine links the inserts & payouts to the Player's Club number.
I even thought the value of vouchers you get in a day doesn't exactly count, it's what you redeem at the cage or the ATM kiosks. You could run through $50K of vouchers in a day yet only have $6K of profit when you're done. Which counts? The $50K of vouchers you recycled through the machine, or the $6K you cashed out at the cage? That's why I tell certain people not to run to the cage with every $1,000 win they get every half hour, because they'll count it there towards the $10K limit. The machine doesn't count, it's just extra coin-in when the voucher gets stuffed back into the machine. I guess I'm trying to make a distinction between the cage and the machines for the $10K limit, but I don't have first hand experience with the limitations.
DRich has entered the chat. If you're bringing more than 100 $100 bills to put into the machine over several hours, there might be an issue. The vouchers you cash out and reinsert into the machine don't count. But go to the cage and get cash for your voucher and that counts.
I even thought the value of vouchers you get in a day doesn't exactly count, it's what you redeem at the cage or the ATM kiosks. You could run through $50K of vouchers in a day yet only have $6K of profit when you're done. Which counts? The $50K of vouchers you recycled through the machine, or the $6K you cashed out at the cage? That's why I tell certain people not to run to the cage with every $1,000 win they get every half hour, because they'll count it there towards the $10K limit. The machine doesn't count, it's just extra coin-in when the voucher gets stuffed back into the machine. I guess I'm trying to make a distinction between the cage and the machines for the $10K limit, but I don't have first hand experience with the limitations.
DRich has entered the chat. If you're bringing more than 100 $100 bills to put into the machine over several hours, there might be an issue. The vouchers you cash out and reinsert into the machine don't count. But go to the cage and get cash for your voucher and that counts.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Feb 13, 2024
February 13th, 2024 at 12:16:53 PM
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Your friend has no case. Casinos can ban whoever they want as long as they are not in violation of any civil rights laws.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 13th, 2024 at 12:32:51 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeSo it's about collecting vouchers & cash totaling $10K or more in a day, or inserting vouchers & cash totaling more than $10K in a day, that kind of thing. The amount of points I get on my card doesn't matter. But my card being in the machine links the inserts & payouts to the Player's Club number.
link to original post
We never cared about the amount of dollars in vouchers inserted or collected, only the cash.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 13th, 2024 at 1:03:15 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeSo it's about collecting vouchers & cash totaling $10K or more in a day, or inserting vouchers & cash totaling more than $10K in a day, that kind of thing. The amount of points I get on my card doesn't matter. But my card being in the machine links the inserts & payouts to the Player's Club number.
I even thought the value of vouchers you get in a day doesn't exactly count, it's what you redeem at the cage or the ATM kiosks. You could run through $50K of vouchers in a day yet only have $6K of profit when you're done. Which counts? The $50K of vouchers you recycled through the machine, or the $6K you cashed out at the cage? That's why I tell certain people not to run to the cage with every $1,000 win they get every half hour, because they'll count it there towards the $10K limit. The machine doesn't count, it's just extra coin-in when the voucher gets stuffed back into the machine. I guess I'm trying to make a distinction between the cage and the machines for the $10K limit, but I don't have first hand experience with the limitations.
DRich has entered the chat. If you're bringing more than 100 $100 bills to put into the machine over several hours, there might be an issue. The vouchers you cash out and reinsert into the machine don't count. But go to the cage and get cash for your voucher and that counts.
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It is only wins. Actual wins.
As I said when doing the doey/don't if one side INSERTS over $10,000 In cash (and loses it) there is no need for ssn
The winning side which for necessity required us to keep cashing out before hitting $2000 (so we could cash at redemption machine and recycle by handing back to the losing side) was required to hand over SSN once passing a recorded win of $10,000
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 2:05:52 PM
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So the redemption machine acted as a cage and accumulated towards your $10K win.
February 13th, 2024 at 4:32:03 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeSo the redemption machine acted as a cage and accumulated towards your $10K win.
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I would say it was the player's card.
Even if the actual redemption machine is where the "accounting " took place it would be because the players card had become attached to that particular tito.
However more than likely it was just recorded action on the player's card.
In either case $10,000 in cash LOST is not reportable.
$10,000 IN WON money is.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 4:52:28 PM
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Quote: darkoz[\
As I said when doing the doey/don't if one side INSERTS over $10,000 In cash (and loses it) there is no need for ssn
That is 100% wrong. A CTR needs to be filed for any cash transaction over $10,000.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:35:00 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: darkoz[\
As I said when doing the doey/don't if one side INSERTS over $10,000 In cash (and loses it) there is no need for ssn
That is 100% wrong. A CTR needs to be filed for any cash transaction over $10,000.
link to original post
Then you had better get on the phone to casinos across the east coast.
Because that is precisely how they do it.
Besides if you think about it, for say tables players, they make the accounting at the cashier's cage, correct?
Well, $10,000 losers DON'T cash out at the cage.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 5:36:18 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: darkoz[\
As I said when doing the doey/don't if one side INSERTS over $10,000 In cash (and loses it) there is no need for ssn
That is 100% wrong. A CTR needs to be filed for any cash transaction over $10,000.
link to original post
Then you had better get on the phone to casinos across the east coast.
Because that is precisely how they do it.
link to original post
I don't doubt that at all, but they are supposed to do it. At my last casino job I was responsible for running the reports and yelling at the employees for not doing it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 13th, 2024 at 5:38:24 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: darkoz[\
As I said when doing the doey/don't if one side INSERTS over $10,000 In cash (and loses it) there is no need for ssn
That is 100% wrong. A CTR needs to be filed for any cash transaction over $10,000.
link to original post
Then you had better get on the phone to casinos across the east coast.
Because that is precisely how they do it.
link to original post
I don't doubt that at all, but they are supposed to do it.
link to original post
But isn't it at the cashier's cage that the CTR info is done for table players?
$10,000 losers don't cash out at the cashier's cage!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 13th, 2024 at 5:47:03 PM
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Quote: darkoz
But isn't it at the cashier's cage that the CTR info is done for table players?
$10,000 losers don't cash out at the cashier's cage!
In most casinos it would be the Pit Boss handling it for table games. the pit is supposed to track how much each player is in, it is almost impossible if the player is playing in different pits.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 13th, 2024 at 8:52:14 PM
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Quote: darkozQuote: ChumpChangeSo the redemption machine acted as a cage and accumulated towards your $10K win.
link to original post
I would say it was the player's card.
Even if the actual redemption machine is where the "accounting " took place it would be because the players card had become attached to that particular tito.
However more than likely it was just recorded action on the player's card.
link to original post
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it. So it would make sense that the redemption center would add up the amounts cashed out on your Player's Card number. If you're playing without a card, I don't know what the redemption center does. Does the redemption center say go to the cage if the TITO is over a certain amount, say $500 instead of the standard $2,000 limit you were enjoying with your card in the machine? If there's no Player's Card, how can it total up a figure towards $10K? But your whole strategy is to use Players Cards, so you may not know. At the cage they scan the TITOs with a scanner tool and it will associate to your Player's Club number from the TITO info and will count toward the $10K limit. If you weren't using a Player's Card while playing, they'd probably ask for photo ID at the cage while they cash out your voucher, especially for amounts they see fit in the lower 4 figures.
PS: I got a pill bottle I can supposedly fit 24 casino chips in. So I could fill it with 24 X $500 chips or $12K, so I could do my own buy-ins with chips at different tables and pits on different shifts. Tables tend to require a Player's Card, so I don't know how they will react to my bringing chips from home instead of dropping cash on the table. But I would likely drop a couple $500 chips on the table to get change, so they could record a buy-in, and they can record my color-up when they give me a bunch of $500 chips back when I leave. If I turn $1K into $12K, I can fill a 2nd pill bottle with the winnings and skip the cage cash-out for the day.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Feb 13, 2024
February 13th, 2024 at 9:12:02 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeQuote: darkozQuote: ChumpChangeSo the redemption machine acted as a cage and accumulated towards your $10K win.
link to original post
I would say it was the player's card.
Even if the actual redemption machine is where the "accounting " took place it would be because the players card had become attached to that particular tito.
However more than likely it was just recorded action on the player's card.
link to original post
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it. So it would make sense that the redemption center would add up the amounts cashed out on your Player's Card number. If you're playing without a card, I don't know what the redemption center does. Does the redemption center say go to the cage if the TITO is over a certain amount, say $500 instead of the standard $2,000 limit you were enjoying with your card in the machine? If there's no Player's Card, how can it total up a figure towards $10K? But your whole strategy is to use Players Cards, so you may not know. At the cage they scan the TITOs with a scanner tool and it will associate to your Player's Club number from the TITO info and will count toward the $10K limit. If you weren't using a Player's Card while playing, they'd probably ask for photo ID at the cage while they cash out your voucher, especially for amounts they see fit in the lower 4 figures.
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Redemption machines will cash out the same amount regardless of playing with or without a players card. I have never seen otherwise.
Different casinos have different amounts. I have seen as low as $600 and as high as $3000.
I should point out however that most locations where it is under $3000 you get cash without ID requested unless you keep getting seen by the same cashier.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2024 at 4:36:43 AM
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Quote: ChumpChange
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it.
It does not.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 14th, 2024 at 4:52:44 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: ChumpChange
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it.
It does not.
link to original post
Thanks.
I'd always thought a TITO was "just" a serial number that identified a database entry.
Are you allowed to tell us what goodies might be in the database?
May the cards fall in your favor.
February 14th, 2024 at 5:27:22 AM
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Part of Answer 9- scroll down:
While ticket in/ticket out ("TITO") tickets redeemed at kiosks or terminals do not contain a customer's name or any account number, each ticket has the number of the slot machine or video lottery terminal that issued it, as well as an 18-digit validation number and a unique bar code that can be used to identify a customer.15 Although customers are limited to redeeming tickets usually valued at no more than $3,000, a customer can conduct a series of ticket redemptions in amounts less than $3,000 at the same kiosk, or two kiosks located near each other, during a short period of time (often within several minutes) and thereby avoid limits on the value of tickets redeemed at a kiosk.16 In addition, customers can feed bills into multiple slot machine validators, make no bets or a single small bet, print out TITO tickets, and cash them at a slot redemption kiosk, without human interaction. Both of the above are casino vulnerabilities. For purposes of suspicious transaction reporting, casinos should note that the reporting requirement also applies to "patterns of transactions" that are suspicious and aggregate to $5,000. Thus, when a casino develops its risk-based compliance procedures for monitoring for suspicious activities, it must consider and use, as practicable, the transactional information in kiosk-slot ticket redemption detail reports 17 for the purposes of reporting suspicious activities.
https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-regulations/guidance/frequently-asked-questions-casino-recordkeeping-reporting
"a unique bar code that can be used to identify a customer."
While ticket in/ticket out ("TITO") tickets redeemed at kiosks or terminals do not contain a customer's name or any account number, each ticket has the number of the slot machine or video lottery terminal that issued it, as well as an 18-digit validation number and a unique bar code that can be used to identify a customer.15 Although customers are limited to redeeming tickets usually valued at no more than $3,000, a customer can conduct a series of ticket redemptions in amounts less than $3,000 at the same kiosk, or two kiosks located near each other, during a short period of time (often within several minutes) and thereby avoid limits on the value of tickets redeemed at a kiosk.16 In addition, customers can feed bills into multiple slot machine validators, make no bets or a single small bet, print out TITO tickets, and cash them at a slot redemption kiosk, without human interaction. Both of the above are casino vulnerabilities. For purposes of suspicious transaction reporting, casinos should note that the reporting requirement also applies to "patterns of transactions" that are suspicious and aggregate to $5,000. Thus, when a casino develops its risk-based compliance procedures for monitoring for suspicious activities, it must consider and use, as practicable, the transactional information in kiosk-slot ticket redemption detail reports 17 for the purposes of reporting suspicious activities.
https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-regulations/guidance/frequently-asked-questions-casino-recordkeeping-reporting
"a unique bar code that can be used to identify a customer."
February 14th, 2024 at 6:06:30 AM
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Quote: DieterQuote: DRichQuote: ChumpChange
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it.
It does not.
link to original post
Thanks.
I'd always thought a TITO was "just" a serial number that identified a database entry.
Are you allowed to tell us what goodies might be in the database?
link to original post
There is quite a bit of information in the databases. If you have specific questions feel free to ask.
A typical play session would have info similar to this
Start time
End time
Machine number
PlayerId
Coin in
Coin out
Bills in
TITO in
actual win/loss
Theoretical win
Jackpots
etc,
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 14th, 2024 at 6:59:29 AM
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Private property. They can kick anyone out so long as the ADA and Federal Discrimination laws are followed.
Normally casinos don’t care about who claims taxables. That said due to laws regarding money laundering what your friends did could constitute trying to get around the anti money laundering laws that the casino is legally bound to.
Also this is likely not the first time your “friends” have done this.
Normally casinos don’t care about who claims taxables. That said due to laws regarding money laundering what your friends did could constitute trying to get around the anti money laundering laws that the casino is legally bound to.
Also this is likely not the first time your “friends” have done this.
February 14th, 2024 at 7:18:15 AM
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Quote: SlotenthusiastPrivate property. They can kick anyone out so long as the ADA and Federal Discrimination laws are followed.
Normally casinos don’t care about who claims taxables. That said due to laws regarding money laundering what your friends did could constitute trying to get around the anti money laundering laws that the casino is legally bound to.
Also this is likely not the first time your “friends” have done this.
link to original post
Many years ago when i was much younger I used to pay people to collect jackpots for me. They were always friends that I could trust.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 14th, 2024 at 7:21:44 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: ChumpChange
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it.
It does not.
link to original post
The TITO most certainly can have players card info embedded in it.
I have seen a number of different situations as a multucarder where this was a fact.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2024 at 7:24:35 AM
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Quote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: ChumpChange
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it.
It does not.
link to original post
The TITO most certainly can have players card info embedded in it.
I have seen a number of different situations as a multucarder where this was a fact.
link to original post
Again, it does not. The information is in the database but not on the ticket.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 14th, 2024 at 7:46:19 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: DieterQuote: DRichQuote: ChumpChange
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it.
It does not.
link to original post
Thanks.
I'd always thought a TITO was "just" a serial number that identified a database entry.
Are you allowed to tell us what goodies might be in the database?
link to original post
There is quite a bit of information in the databases. If you have specific questions feel free to ask.
A typical play session would have info similar to this
Start time
End time
Machine number
PlayerId
Coin in
Coin out
Bills in
TITO in
actual win/loss
Theoretical win
Jackpots
etc,
link to original post
Sure!
Is "PlayerId" set if and only if a players card is active during at least one game?
How would multiple players cards without the credit meter reaching 0 be typically handled?
(I'll understand that your answers, if you can provide them, cannot be applicable to all properties and installations, but may be generally applicable to many.)
May the cards fall in your favor.
February 14th, 2024 at 7:55:28 AM
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Quote: Dieter
Sure!
Is "PlayerId" set if and only if a players card is active during at least one game?
How would multiple players cards without the credit meter reaching 0 be typically handled?
(I'll understand that your answers, if you can provide them, cannot be applicable to all properties and installations, but may be generally applicable to many.)
PlayerId is only set if a card is inserted.
When the player removes the card that is the end of the session. Another player card would start a new session.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 14th, 2024 at 7:56:24 AM
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Well, he did say the database contains the actual win/loss, so if that's what you're looking for that kind of leaves the TITO out of it.
If I'm up $15K in TITOs but only cash $5K of them in and take the rest home to use on another day, the database will still say I won $15K that day, supposedly.
I don't know if alarms will trigger if I come in 3 weeks later and deposit another $5K of those vouchers into the machines or cashing them at the cage will update the database from the day when I first got the vouchers then I suddenly have a $10K problem. Like if the database thought I was up only $5K because of what I cashed out at the cage the first day, then I come in later and the database sees this older voucher and updates the database for that older date to $10K. Cashing out at the cage or the kiosk is the only event that makes sense to me, so putting the vouchers in the slot machine would mean nothing.
I'm probably asking for too much information from people who are programmed not to tell me anything anyway.
If I'm up $15K in TITOs but only cash $5K of them in and take the rest home to use on another day, the database will still say I won $15K that day, supposedly.
I don't know if alarms will trigger if I come in 3 weeks later and deposit another $5K of those vouchers into the machines or cashing them at the cage will update the database from the day when I first got the vouchers then I suddenly have a $10K problem. Like if the database thought I was up only $5K because of what I cashed out at the cage the first day, then I come in later and the database sees this older voucher and updates the database for that older date to $10K. Cashing out at the cage or the kiosk is the only event that makes sense to me, so putting the vouchers in the slot machine would mean nothing.
I'm probably asking for too much information from people who are programmed not to tell me anything anyway.
February 14th, 2024 at 8:06:17 AM
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Quote: ChumpChange
I'm probably asking for too much information from people who are programmed not to tell me anything anyway.
After spending 25 years doing these systems I Can't think of anything that I could not speak about.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
February 14th, 2024 at 8:15:47 AM
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Back to the subject, I've seen YouTube videos of slot players who have a couple onlookers and they are sometimes asked to pick a bonus feature and they touch the screen to pick the feature. There's never any talk of those onlookers getting any share of the prize of what they just picked. If the machine says there were 15,000 coins won in that bonus round, they just go on the credit meter of the YouTube player.
February 14th, 2024 at 12:04:48 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: ChumpChange
The TITO reportedly has the Player's Card info embedded within it.
It does not.
link to original post
The TITO most certainly can have players card info embedded in it.
I have seen a number of different situations as a multucarder where this was a fact.
link to original post
Again, it does not. The information is in the database but not on the ticket.
link to original post
I am sorry but you are wrong based on my personal experience.
Just one example. A person who started working for me didn't listen and went OVER $3000 on a ticket and had to cash out at cashier's. This is 2013 at Golden Nugget.
Was told the voucher was registered to a different person. Lucky for him that person happened to be at the casino and they had to claim the ticket.
Absolutely impossible to claim the player's card info isn't on the TITO!!!
Another example. Running multiple cards at Resorts World, they couldn't catch me (three months of back and forth) suddenly vouchers didn't cash out at kiosk. Was it a barcode misprint? No, went to cashier and found out vouchers were flagged from player's card.
I know you are an expert but TITO's can and are linked to player's cards with the information on the TITO.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
