Near misses, legal or not?

Can you reference a law in your answer... or is this just like all casino information... mostly lore...?

That depends on what you mean by your question - first of all, how do you define "near miss," and second, what do you mean by whether or not it is legal?

Are you talking about something like, a slot machine determines the payout result in advance, and if it is a losing one, the probability of showing a "near miss" (where all but one of the reels shows a jackpot on the pay line, and the other reel shows the jackpot off by one symbol) is increased?

i should have googled it but there are others out there that have asked this question... i think this answer might be specific to canada though

https://www.casinocitytimes.com/john-robison/article/is-it-illegal-to-program-near-misses-45242

Quote:

Dear Bill,

Just about every losing spin can be converted into a winner by shifting one or more reels up or down a stop. Just about every losing spin is a near miss.

Near misses were not outlawed years ago. It's impossible to eliminate them. What was outlawed was a process called a "secondary decision."

Machines that used a secondary decision worked this way. The RNG was used to select from a pool consisting of particular winning combinations and "loser." If "loser" was chosen, the programming running the slot machine would then poll the RNG again to choose from a pool of losing combinations that favored exciting losing combinations over boring ones. An exciting losing combination, for example, is two Double Diamond symbols on the payline on the first two reel and a Double Diamond one stop above or below the payline on the last reel. A boring near miss is something like an any bar combination that doesn't land completely on the payline.

The problem with the secondary decision is that it made it look like the jackpot symbol was more likely to land on the payline that it actually was. Every losing spin, in fact, provided no information about how likely it was for symbols to land on the payline because different processes were used to select the symbols for winning spins and for losing spins.

Slots using a secondary decision were considered to be misleading. The Nevada gaming commission wrote regulations requiring electronic slots to display the result determined by the RNG with no secondary decision or other alteration whatsoever.

Near misses still occur, but now the frequency with which they occur is directly related to how frequently symbols appear on the virtual reels defined in the programming of the machine.

As for your casinos not revealing their paybacks, I suppose what they have to hide is how low their payouts are — especially if they're so concerned about casinos so far away.

Best of luck in and out of the casinos,
John

Quote: heatmap

i should have googled it but there are others out there that have asked this question... i think this answer might be specific to canada though

https://www.casinocitytimes.com/john-robison/article/is-it-illegal-to-program-near-misses-45242

Quote:

Dear Bill,

Just about every losing spin can be converted into a winner by shifting one or more reels up or down a stop. Just about every losing spin is a near miss.

Near misses were not outlawed years ago. It's impossible to eliminate them. What was outlawed was a process called a "secondary decision."

Machines that used a secondary decision worked this way. The RNG was used to select from a pool consisting of particular winning combinations and "loser." If "loser" was chosen, the programming running the slot machine would then poll the RNG again to choose from a pool of losing combinations that favored exciting losing combinations over boring ones. An exciting losing combination, for example, is two Double Diamond symbols on the payline on the first two reel and a Double Diamond one stop above or below the payline on the last reel. A boring near miss is something like an any bar combination that doesn't land completely on the payline.

The problem with the secondary decision is that it made it look like the jackpot symbol was more likely to land on the payline that it actually was. Every losing spin, in fact, provided no information about how likely it was for symbols to land on the payline because different processes were used to select the symbols for winning spins and for losing spins.

Slots using a secondary decision were considered to be misleading. The Nevada gaming commission wrote regulations requiring electronic slots to display the result determined by the RNG with no secondary decision or other alteration whatsoever.

Near misses still occur, but now the frequency with which they occur is directly related to how frequently symbols appear on the virtual reels defined in the programming of the machine.

As for your casinos not revealing their paybacks, I suppose what they have to hide is how low their payouts are — especially if they're so concerned about casinos so far away.

Best of luck in and out of the casinos,
John

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He actually specifies near the end this pertains to Nevada gaming regulations.

I have posted on this site numerous times references to Nevada forbidding designed "near misses".

I believe if you Google Universal Gaming and near misses you will probably find the original case in Nevada.

I know there used to be something in the Nevada Gaming Regulations that required each reel on a slot machine to have its result determined independently of the others, but I can't find it in recent editions.

Quote: DRich

I have posted on this site numerous times references to Nevada forbidding designed "near misses".

I believe if you Google Universal Gaming and near misses you will probably find the original case in Nevada.
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i thank you for your time and effort that you really dont have to put in at all...

i have to update this thread to let myself and others know that what the universal slots were doing were actually completely random, but they did what was called a secondary decision ON THE PAYLINE ... they would see that there was one symbol that was just one off and would adjust the results after the first RNG picked result.

i have to tell you that the information im seeing that its actually legal to do near misses above or below the payline

one of the reasons the law was made was because IGT threatened the gaming control board that they had the patents and ability to enable the PAYLINE near misses and they would do it if the gaming control board didnt do anything about the universal machines.

this is the reason that the secondary decision clause is in the current laws that we can see today

The losing combinations on Hold & Spin variants with 5 balls showing on reels 1 and 2 requiring just 1 more ball to land the prize are just brutal.. especially when there’s a max ball or two on display. I’ve found it’s best to walk away after I see this or else I’m likely to go on tilt - likely what the game developers want to happen.. I can’t imagine the frustration one must feel if the Grand coin is showing, but without enough to trigger the bonus! Yes, some games do have a Grand coin!

There is a new slot I have played a little. It’s one of those that 9 lines and you play one credit per line. It has a couple of progressives that you hit if you line up 3 wilds on a payline. Pretty simple. I played it once and hit a progressive within a few hundred spins. I’ve played it a few times since and more closely paid attention to it. Like other slots if you get a wild on the first 2 reels on a payline you know it goes real slow and dramatic on the third. I was playing it and noticed it fairly often would do this, maybe every 20 spins. But it never hit the third wild. That’s not what was remarkable. That can happen. What was amazing was that on the wild wild X payline, nothing ever landed there. It would be easier to explain this by showing but for those who are familiar when the first 2 reels have a wild on a payline, depending which one it is, on the third reel there is a blank and then a symbol and then a blank. So depending on how the third reel lands, it will be from top to bottom either blank symbol blank or symbol blank symbol. So if the first 2 reels are wild wild there is either a 1/3 or 2/3 chance that any symbols will land on the wild wild payline. But yet this never happened. In fact I counted it once. Over 30x it went wild wild and not only did a third wild not come up but 30x only twice did any other symbol (a simple bar or something, never a 7) not come up. To have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance at something and only hit it twice in 30 chances is near impossible. Everytime the symbol was one space off. It got to the point where I didn’t want a wild wild because that would be a losing spin.

Clearly this is not a fair machine where every symbol has an equal chance. If told this to gaming I’m sure they would just say but the machine pays out in the end what it was designed to.

I think it’s very deceptive that certain machines give the appearance that you were so close to winning the grand or hitting a bonus when in reality you never had a chance. It was designed to deceive you.

Quote: Sandybestdog

There is a new slot I have played a little. It’s one of those that 9 lines and you play one credit per line. It has a couple of progressives that you hit if you line up 3 wilds on a payline. Pretty simple. I played it once and hit a progressive within a few hundred spins. I’ve played it a few times since and more closely paid attention to it. Like other slots if you get a wild on the first 2 reels on a payline you know it goes real slow and dramatic on the third. I was playing it and noticed it fairly often would do this, maybe every 20 spins. But it never hit the third wild. That’s not what was remarkable. That can happen. What was amazing was that on the wild wild X payline, nothing ever landed there. It would be easier to explain this by showing but for those who are familiar when the first 2 reels have a wild on a payline, depending which one it is, on the third reel there is a blank and then a symbol and then a blank. So depending on how the third reel lands, it will be from top to bottom either blank symbol blank or symbol blank symbol. So if the first 2 reels are wild wild there is either a 1/3 or 2/3 chance that any symbols will land on the wild wild payline. But yet this never happened. In fact I counted it once. Over 30x it went wild wild and not only did a third wild not come up but 30x only twice did any other symbol (a simple bar or something, never a 7) not come up. To have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance at something and only hit it twice in 30 chances is near impossible. Everytime the symbol was one space off. It got to the point where I didn’t want a wild wild because that would be a losing spin.

Clearly this is not a fair machine where every symbol has an equal chance. If told this to gaming I’m sure they would just say but the machine pays out in the end what it was designed to.

I think it’s very deceptive that certain machines give the appearance that you were so close to winning the grand or hitting a bonus when in reality you never had a chance. It was designed to deceive you.
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I don’t have much time right now but on any one reel, I would say it’s not true that every symbol on that reel has an equal chance. This is because the reel may contain unequal amounts of the same symbol. Reel one may have one jackpot symbol on it whereas other reels may have more than one jackpot symbol on it.

What I think you are confusing is that the way the random number is picked which is essentially fair and then it’s scaled down to it’s range.

Quote: Sandybestdog

There is a new slot I have played a little. It’s one of those that 9 lines and you play one credit per line. It has a couple of progressives that you hit if you line up 3 wilds on a payline. Pretty simple. I played it once and hit a progressive within a few hundred spins. I’ve played it a few times since and more closely paid attention to it. Like other slots if you get a wild on the first 2 reels on a payline you know it goes real slow and dramatic on the third. I was playing it and noticed it fairly often would do this, maybe every 20 spins. But it never hit the third wild. That’s not what was remarkable. That can happen. What was amazing was that on the wild wild X payline, nothing ever landed there. It would be easier to explain this by showing but for those who are familiar when the first 2 reels have a wild on a payline, depending which one it is, on the third reel there is a blank and then a symbol and then a blank. So depending on how the third reel lands, it will be from top to bottom either blank symbol blank or symbol blank symbol. So if the first 2 reels are wild wild there is either a 1/3 or 2/3 chance that any symbols will land on the wild wild payline. But yet this never happened. In fact I counted it once. Over 30x it went wild wild and not only did a third wild not come up but 30x only twice did any other symbol (a simple bar or something, never a 7) not come up. To have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance at something and only hit it twice in 30 chances is near impossible. Everytime the symbol was one space off. It got to the point where I didn’t want a wild wild because that would be a losing spin.

Clearly this is not a fair machine where every symbol has an equal chance. If told this to gaming I’m sure they would just say but the machine pays out in the end what it was designed to.

I think it’s very deceptive that certain machines give the appearance that you were so close to winning the grand or hitting a bonus when in reality you never had a chance. It was designed to deceive you.
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There is no requirement that every symbol have the same probability of appearing. For that matter, there is no requirement that every symbol on the same reel have the same probability of appearing. Yes, if each of the symbols next to the jackpot on the last reel are 5 times as likely to come up as the jackpot symbol itself, then there are 10 near misses where the last reel is off by one for every jackpot. I can't remember where I heard this, but I thought somebody once said that there may have been a rule where the ratio of the probabilities of adjacent symbols on the same real landing on the pay line could not be more than 6:1.
The "no near miss" rule means that the machine cannot first determine that you have a losing spin, and then intentionally make it more likely to be a near miss.

I understand that each symbol probably doesn’t have the same chance of coming up. But I’m not just talking about getting a wild wild wild on a payline, I’m talking getting any symbol. If you have wild wild on the first 2 reels, it’s reasonable to assume that you have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance of any symbol landing on the desired payline. But I counted over 30 times and it gave the wild wild and it missed 28 out of 30 times. It was one space off everytime. Only a bar symbol showed up twice. Everytime I would literally point my finger to the spot that it would land (one spot off) and either a wild or 7 would always land there everytime giving you the illusion that you were so close to a big win when in reality you had no shot.

I’m not complaining that I lost. A few days later I did eventually hit a progressive again. I am probably slightly up lifetime on the machine but won’t be playing it again. The first time I played it the jackpot was unusually high. It was a new machine so perhaps they transferred a jackpot from a closing machine. But it’s hard to come up with a number to play something when it’s not a fair game.

Quote: Sandybestdog

I understand that each symbol probably doesn’t have the same chance of coming up. But I’m not just talking about getting a wild wild wild on a payline, I’m talking getting any symbol. If you have wild wild on the first 2 reels, it’s reasonable to assume that you have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance of any symbol landing on the desired payline. But I counted over 30 times and it gave the wild wild and it missed 28 out of 30 times. It was one space off everytime. Only a bar symbol showed up twice. Everytime I would literally point my finger to the spot that it would land (one spot off) and either a wild or 7 would always land there everytime giving you the illusion that you were so close to a big win when in reality you had no shot.
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Did you count the number of times the third reel had nothing on the payline while a 7 or Wild appeared one spot away, when there weren't two Wilds on the first two reels?

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: Sandybestdog

I understand that each symbol probably doesn’t have the same chance of coming up. But I’m not just talking about getting a wild wild wild on a payline, I’m talking getting any symbol. If you have wild wild on the first 2 reels, it’s reasonable to assume that you have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance of any symbol landing on the desired payline. But I counted over 30 times and it gave the wild wild and it missed 28 out of 30 times. It was one space off everytime. Only a bar symbol showed up twice. Everytime I would literally point my finger to the spot that it would land (one spot off) and either a wild or 7 would always land there everytime giving you the illusion that you were so close to a big win when in reality you had no shot.
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Did you count the number of times the third reel had nothing on the payline while a 7 or Wild appeared one spot away, when there weren't two Wilds on the first two reels?
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The 3 different spots on reel 3 had pretty even distribution of all of the symbols. Wilds showed up at least every few spins. But it never landed on the right spot when wild wild was on the first 2. Again the important spot would never have any symbol land there. Almost every time a 7 or wild would be above or below where you needed it. Only about once in every 15 times that there was wild wild maybe a single or occasionally a triple bar would land there. Often you would have 3 scatter wilds but they weren’t on a payline.

Quote: Sandybestdog

There is a new slot I have played a little. It’s one of those that 9 lines and you play one credit per line. It has a couple of progressives that you hit if you line up 3 wilds on a payline. Pretty simple. I played it once and hit a progressive within a few hundred spins. I’ve played it a few times since and more closely paid attention to it. Like other slots if you get a wild on the first 2 reels on a payline you know it goes real slow and dramatic on the third. I was playing it and noticed it fairly often would do this, maybe every 20 spins. But it never hit the third wild. That’s not what was remarkable. That can happen. What was amazing was that on the wild wild X payline, nothing ever landed there. It would be easier to explain this by showing but for those who are familiar when the first 2 reels have a wild on a payline, depending which one it is, on the third reel there is a blank and then a symbol and then a blank. So depending on how the third reel lands, it will be from top to bottom either blank symbol blank or symbol blank symbol. So if the first 2 reels are wild wild there is either a 1/3 or 2/3 chance that any symbols will land on the wild wild payline. But yet this never happened. In fact I counted it once. Over 30x it went wild wild and not only did a third wild not come up but 30x only twice did any other symbol (a simple bar or something, never a 7) not come up. To have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance at something and only hit it twice in 30 chances is near impossible. Everytime the symbol was one space off. It got to the point where I didn’t want a wild wild because that would be a losing spin.

Clearly this is not a fair machine where every symbol has an equal chance. If told this to gaming I’m sure they would just say but the machine pays out in the end what it was designed to.

I think it’s very deceptive that certain machines give the appearance that you were so close to winning the grand or hitting a bonus when in reality you never had a chance. It was designed to deceive you.
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If the game you’re talking about is the one I’m thinking of, I have had the same results as you. It was just amazing how many times it would pay zero after getting two wilds.

Aristocrats Dragon Flies and Tiger Roars Mighty Cash always drops the minor and mini coins just before you're about to run out of money. For sure programed in to have you put more money in.

Quote: OKAY

Aristocrats Dragon Flies and Tiger Roars Mighty Cash always drops the minor and mini coins just before you're about to run out of money. For sure programed in to have you put more money in.
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Definitely not.