Has Vulturing gone the way of the dodo

Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Hunterhill

This wouldn’t work for long after awhile the aps will figure out the machines are set lower and just adjust their entry points.
Also this will make the regular players lose at a faster rate and they will notice and either play less or take their business elsewhere.
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Not if the APs play at multiple casinos.
they will get the itch to play at the # they're use for entry at the other casino.
i know i do.

As for the ploppies:
The casino will raise rtp of some non-aP slots such that the overall avg rtp % remains the same as before they nerfed the AP machines.

So the ploppies that play lots of different machines will have an overall positive feeling because they'll remember more of the great time they had at the higher rtp machine vs Buffalo Ascension eating their $ quick
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If you play because you get the itch then you aren’t really a disciplined AP.
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That's why we multi-card from relatives.
We're bored. we'll play a game early because we lack discipline. But to offset it a little, we'll use a relative's card for the extra $5 in freeplay.

We'll still probably lose $ but our lack of discipline is subsidized

Quote: darkoz

EDIT: Besides the other aspect is that even a ploppie who wins that must hit is probably going to suddenly rise up and leave the casino satisfied he won so big.
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Let me see if i can summarize the 2 sides of this subject:

Your point is that ploppies leave the casino when they hit the progressive or the variable state game that campers were waiting for just like APs stop gambling.

Axel's point is that Ploppies more often than not put that $ back into another -eV machine where as APs more often than not pocket the profit.
The ploppies will lose a little extra bit of $ after hitting thus giving the casino a little bit more profit.
APs, on the other hand, will win that $ instead of the ploppies and take that extra bit of $ out the door thus a little less profit for the casino.

Dark, mathematically, it's the same hold on the machine. Casino makes the same theo.
But the ploppies will more likely put the $ back into another random machine if they're the one's that hit thus giving the casino more theo.
They're more likely to do that than APs.

Basically percentage wise over a year, a fraction more of the hundreds of millions played stays in a casino without APs than with.

Did i get the gist of the arguments of the 2 sides?

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: darkoz

EDIT: Besides the other aspect is that even a ploppie who wins that must hit is probably going to suddenly rise up and leave the casino satisfied he won so big.
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Let me see if i can summarize the 2 sides of this subject:

Your point is that ploppies leave the casino when they hit the progressive or the variable state game that campers were waiting for just like APs stop gambling.

Axel's point is that Ploppies more often than not put that $ back into another -eV machine where as APs more often than not pocket the profit.
The ploppies will lose a little extra bit of $ after hitting thus giving the casino a little bit more profit.
APs, on the other hand, will win that $ instead of the ploppies and take that extra bit of $ out the door thus a little less profit for the casino.

Dark, mathematically, it's the same hold on the machine. Casino makes the same theo.
But the ploppies will more likely put the $ back into another random machine if they're the one's that hit thus giving the casino more theo.
They're more likely to do that than APs.

Basically percentage wise over a year, a fraction more of the hundreds of millions played stays in a casino without APs than with.

Did i get the gist of the arguments of the 2 sides?
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Yes but there is another side to this no one has mentioned yet so I will.

Game manufacturers certainly understand that these games will give rise to vulturing. Therefore they have already factored in the profit from the ploppie who finds the game attractive versus the AP who profits off this and determined that the overall impact is positive for the casino.

Any losses to AP's are therefore part of the equation factored in.

It's like cereal companies factoring in the cost of free gifts for box tops versus the extra sales caused by the giveaways.

If game manufacturers didn't factor AP's into such an obvious situation or perhaps don't understand how AP vulturing works then they are beyond stupid...but more likely they already factored in this issue and still found these machines leave a net positive for the casino.

Quote: darkoz

If game manufacturers didn't factor AP's into such an obvious situation or perhaps don't understand how AP vulturing works then they are beyond stupid..

Do you not understand the difference between the manufacturers and the casino? Of course the manufacturers don't care if you AP, it is the casinos losing the money.

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

If game manufacturers didn't factor AP's into such an obvious situation or perhaps don't understand how AP vulturing works then they are beyond stupid..

Do you not understand the difference between the manufacturers and the casino? Of course the manufacturers don't care if you AP, it is the casinos losing the money.
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The casinos are making more money because the games are more attractive to their clientele.

As I said the AP losses have been factored in.

The casinos want to have their cake and eat it too.

Quote: AxelWolf

You're going to have to stipulate what kind of Advantage Players we are talking about.

A) The bottom-of-the-barrel vulture/Hustler/scambler who is using their earning to fund their drug habit and -EV gambling and lack any decorum whatsoever.

B) The Chinese gangs who take shifts and camp behind people all day long, all while annoying customers.

C) The Vulture who plays only good numbers banks his profits and conducts himself appropriately while in the casinos looking to move on to future AP endeavors.

D) Well-banked Season Advantage Players who occasionally check machines while picking up free play, using their comps to eat, heading to and from other plays.

We can list some other categories but we can leave it at that for now.

C and D absolutely do cost the casinos money since they take the money from the poppies who can no longer spend the money back in the casino.

I can't imagine the casinos would want A's and Bs in their casinos.
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This is a great summary. I have a feeling A is who is mostly being approached and kicked out lately. They are very obvious and annoying to everyone.

The Asians gangs have nothing to worry about. They have immunity. They can be grouped together with the everyday camper who looks all day for plays and when they find nothing they end up losing cause they just want to play something. This is what inevitably happens in a race to the bottom, which is basically what vulturing is.

I haven’t heard anybody define a slot ap machine. If a casino were taking counter measures against bankable slots, they would have to know which ones. Well there are a lot out there that have progressives that may seem ap plays but in reality never will be. Also there are slots that accumulate gold coins and other things that may appear to be bankable but reading the rules it’s not actually clear. In the end no one actually knows if some of these machines are actually plays. Then there’s ones like buffalo ascension that are so known that you almost never get a play anymore so those that are looking all day end up playing bad numbers and losing.

I think slot ap’ing is very different than table games. You can play basic strategy at a table game and lose very little waiting for an opportunity. But you’re not the player they want and you’re taking a seat. Even good slot plays often result in a loss. It is very hard on a slot to overcome the house edge cause it’s so high. Many ap’s end up playing -ev plays. I have a feeling if casinos are kicking out vultures they are overreacting to some bulletin they read or they just find the daily vultures annoying to the rest of the public.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

If game manufacturers didn't factor AP's into such an obvious situation or perhaps don't understand how AP vulturing works then they are beyond stupid..

Do you not understand the difference between the manufacturers and the casino? Of course the manufacturers don't care if you AP, it is the casinos losing the money.
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The casinos are making more money because the games are more attractive to their clientele.

As I said the AP losses have been factored in.

The casinos want to have their cake and eat it too.
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The casinos look at the numbers the machines are producing at this moment and time. They can't see the long-term results of how Vulturing affects their bottom line. There are just too many moving parts to account for when understanding why they are making less money.

Eventually, they figure it out or something breaks and they do away with the problem it's happened many times over the years.

At one point they made a point to stop making vulture machines, but then they forget and do it all over agian.

Quote: AxelWolf

The casinos look at the numbers the machines are producing at this moment and time. They can't see the long-term results of how Vulturing affects their bottom line. There are just too many moving parts to account for when understanding why they are making less money.

Eventually, they figure it out or something breaks and they do away with the problem it's happened many times over the years.

At one point they made a point to stop making vulture machines, but then they forget and do it all over agian.
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How are casinos making less money?

Back in the 90s they used to advertise banks of quarter machines certified at 97.4% payback & they had to deal with all the extra expenses of repairing moving parts due to coin hoppers & handling large physical coin inventories before TITO.

Not to mention all the change people they had to employ on the slot floor.

Today you can’t even get your change unless you wait in line at the cage & the most popular machines are pennies which pay 85% or maybe 87-89% if your lucky enough to find the right place.

You’d think just the elimination of physical coins & the popularity of games returning less than 90% would more than offset some tweakers walking around looking for a sticky wild someone left behind.

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: AxelWolf

The casinos look at the numbers the machines are producing at this moment and time. They can't see the long-term results of how Vulturing affects their bottom line. There are just too many moving parts to account for when understanding why they are making less money.

Eventually, they figure it out or something breaks and they do away with the problem it's happened many times over the years.

At one point they made a point to stop making vulture machines, but then they forget and do it all over agian.
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How are casinos making less money?

Back in the 90s they used to advertise banks of quarter machines certified at 97.4% payback & they had to deal with all the extra expenses of repairing moving parts due to coin hoppers & handling large physical coin inventories before TITO.

Not to mention all the change people they had to employ on the slot floor.

Today you can’t even get your change unless you wait in line at the cage & the most popular machines are pennies which pay 85% or maybe 87-89% if your lucky enough to find the right place.

You’d think just the elimination of physical coins & the popularity of games returning less than 90% would more than offset some tweakers walking around looking for a sticky wild someone left behind.
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I'm sorry, I didn't articulate that properly. I didn't mean they make less money overall compared to the past. I'm saying that their bottom line is affected by vultures and the casinos make less money because of them. If people believe vulturing only consists of people walking around finding a few sticky Wilds then I don't know what to say because it goes much bigger than that.

The best way to Vulture is to let a Poppy lose his money while pumping it up and then leave and the AP then takes over the machine and wins big money. What some APs do is TRICK the Ploppy off the machine after the Ploppy pumps it up. The AP will say something like,"Hey, I saw another slot get a Jackpot 5 times in the last hour. No one is on that other slot machine now. You should play that too, maybe you'll be the 6th Winner." The Ploppy thanks the AP for the hot tip and leaves and goes to the other "Jackpot Slot," AP was LYING to get the Ploppy off of the pumped up machine. AP plays the pumped up machine himself and wins a LOT of money. 💡 Tricking Ploppies off of pumped up slot machines is a scummy thing to do IMHO. Better to wait for them to lose their money after pumping up the machine and then leave and then the AP plays and wins big money. 💡

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: AxelWolf

The casinos look at the numbers the machines are producing at this moment and time. They can't see the long-term results of how Vulturing affects their bottom line. There are just too many moving parts to account for when understanding why they are making less money.

Eventually, they figure it out or something breaks and they do away with the problem it's happened many times over the years.

At one point they made a point to stop making vulture machines, but then they forget and do it all over agian.
link to original post

How are casinos making less money?

Back in the 90s they used to advertise banks of quarter machines certified at 97.4% payback & they had to deal with all the extra expenses of repairing moving parts due to coin hoppers & handling large physical coin inventories before TITO.

Not to mention all the change people they had to employ on the slot floor.

Today you can’t even get your change unless you wait in line at the cage & the most popular machines are pennies which pay 85% or maybe 87-89% if your lucky enough to find the right place.

You’d think just the elimination of physical coins & the popularity of games returning less than 90% would more than offset some tweakers walking around looking for a sticky wild someone left behind.
link to original post

I'm sorry, I didn't articulate that properly. I didn't mean they make less money overall compared to the past. I'm saying that their bottom line is affected by vultures and the casinos make less money because of them. If people believe vulturing only consists of people walking around finding a few sticky Wilds then I don't know what to say because it goes much bigger than that.
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I feel this is obliquely aimed at me based on prior comments so let me reply

I am not a vulture so I don't really study it too much. I am aware of the obvious ones like Scarab etc.

So if there are a subset of vulturing where the economic function is different and results in money leaving the casino in a more serious fashion then I will cede the point. I'm sure Axel doesn't want to discuss those openly and really I personally wouldn't bother with them in all likelihood.

I'm not saying AP doesn't affect their bottom line. Just the subject of this thread vulturing. And that is predicated on my knowledge of it. So I will accept Axels arguments if he is saying there is more than I know about out there.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: AxelWolf

The casinos look at the numbers the machines are producing at this moment and time. They can't see the long-term results of how Vulturing affects their bottom line. There are just too many moving parts to account for when understanding why they are making less money.

Eventually, they figure it out or something breaks and they do away with the problem it's happened many times over the years.

At one point they made a point to stop making vulture machines, but then they forget and do it all over agian.
link to original post

How are casinos making less money?

Back in the 90s they used to advertise banks of quarter machines certified at 97.4% payback & they had to deal with all the extra expenses of repairing moving parts due to coin hoppers & handling large physical coin inventories before TITO.

Not to mention all the change people they had to employ on the slot floor.

Today you can’t even get your change unless you wait in line at the cage & the most popular machines are pennies which pay 85% or maybe 87-89% if your lucky enough to find the right place.

You’d think just the elimination of physical coins & the popularity of games returning less than 90% would more than offset some tweakers walking around looking for a sticky wild someone left behind.
link to original post

I'm sorry, I didn't articulate that properly. I didn't mean they make less money overall compared to the past. I'm saying that their bottom line is affected by vultures and the casinos make less money because of them. If people believe vulturing only consists of people walking around finding a few sticky Wilds then I don't know what to say because it goes much bigger than that.
link to original post

I feel this is obliquely aimed at me based on prior comments so let me reply

I am not a vulture so I don't really study it too much. I am aware of the obvious ones like Scarab etc.

So if there are a subset of vulturing where the economic function is different and results in money leaving the casino in a more serious fashion then I will cede the point. I'm sure Axel doesn't want to discuss those openly and really I personally wouldn't bother with them in all likelihood.

I'm not saying AP doesn't affect their bottom line. Just the subject of this thread vulturing. And that is predicated on my knowledge of it. So I will accept Axels arguments if he is saying there is more than I know about out there.
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I was just responding to Brickapotamus post. Nothing was aimed at you.

Interestingly enough, someone just posted this. The people in this video seem to be talking about the exact same subject.

I must say that I have a lot of bones to pick with some of the things he says about Advantage Play, he's not a true Advantage player and he only has the basic gist of it. For example, he says the biggest Advantage a card counter will ever get is 2% that's just not true that might be the average someone could obtain but on any particular hand it could be higher.

Advantage Players don't throw cigarettes on ploppies laps to get them out of seats, only scum ball Hustlers do that kind of crap. He just made it seem like that was like a common thing back then and or now.

If I understand correctly, he seems to think that the Vision Series slots such as Cherry Pie machines were the first variable/persistent state machines. If I am understanding him correctly that's just not true, I'm sure you can go back to the '80s and find some. And lots of other stuff.

Whatever the case, his Advantage play knowledge might not be that good but perhaps he has inside knowledge on the manufacturer side of things.

I'm well aware that this guy has something to sell and an agenda, however, he doesn't come off as if he's fear-mongering.

People can decide for themselves if they find him credible or not, I don't need him or anyone else to confirm that vultures affect the casinos bottom line both in the short-term and the long-run. This guy is saying all the stuff I was trying to say.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Wo5H072P0&t=53s

Quote: AxelWolf

If I understand correctly, he seems to think that the Vision Series slots such as Cherry Pie machines were the first variable/persistent state machines. If I am understanding him correctly that's just not true, I'm sure you can go back to the '80s and find some. And lots of other stuff.

The Vision series was probably the first major line of slots to offer lots of advantages. I believe the WMS dotmation games like Piggy Bank may have been before the Vision series.

Speaking of Advantage Players, there was some kind of giveaway Casino game where you had to be actively playing when they called your name or something like that. A guy I was playing next to STUNK. His name was called and he got his free play. He told me something like," I've used the bathroom right in this seat waiting to be called for the giveaway game. NASTY! 🤢🤮

Quote: Nathan

Speaking of Advantage Players, there was some kind of giveaway Casino game where you had to be actively playing when they called your name or something like that. A guy I was playing next to STUNK. His name was called and he got his free play. He told me something like," I've used the bathroom right in this seat waiting to be called for the giveaway game. NASTY! 🤢🤮
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Sadly, that happens quite a bit when people are on a "hot machine".

Quote: AxelWolf

Interestingly enough, someone just posted this. The people in this video seem to be talking about the exact same subject.

I must say that I have a lot of bones to pick with some of the things he says about Advantage Play, he's not a true Advantage player and he only has the basic gist of it. For example, he says the biggest Advantage a card counter will ever get is 2% that's just not true that might be the average someone could obtain but on any particular hand it could be higher.

Advantage Players don't throw cigarettes on ploppies laps to get them out of seats, only scum ball Hustlers do that kind of crap. He just made it seem like that was like a common thing back then and or now.

If I understand correctly, he seems to think that the Vision Series slots such as Cherry Pie machines were the first variable/persistent state machines. If I am understanding him correctly that's just not true, I'm sure you can go back to the '80s and find some. And lots of other stuff.

Whatever the case, his Advantage play knowledge might not be that good but perhaps he has inside knowledge on the manufacturer side of things.

I'm well aware that this guy has something to sell and an agenda, however, he doesn't come off as if he's fear-mongering.

People can decide for themselves if they find him credible or not, I don't need him or anyone else to confirm that vultures affect the casinos bottom line both in the short-term and the long-run. This guy is saying all the stuff I was trying to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Wo5H072P0&t=53s
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Thank you for posting this, excellent watch. They do say some funny and contradictory things but as you say he has an agenda.

1. That advantage players cause a lower RTP for recs. The casino industry has been trumpeting for years that players can’t sense the holds and big corps like Caesars have used this logic to set slots at 85% even in purely locals markets. Not to mention 000 roulette & 6/5 black jack. But in the context of slot APs its a problem?

2. He says casinos are losing recs because they have such a bad experience w getting a low RTP because thats all APs leave behind. This is laughable because actual opportunities over 100% are fairly rare. An AP is not going to touch a slot in a 95% state. But a rec at Caesars that finds an AP slot at a 95% RTP is getting one hell of a deal.This is why these games are so popular in the first place.

3. In one breath he says this is a major problem, & then in another that APable slots typically make up from 7% to 11% of a slot floor. If recs have a bad experience on these games they are not lost to the casino forever. They are simply going to move to other games in the casino LOL.

4. That baccarat players playing these slots is a problem. Baccarat players are some of the biggest degens on the planet. If baccarat players AP some slots to chunk it off back on baccarat how is this a problem?

5. Fails to realize that a rising tide lifts all boats. Actually states as a specific example that some AP games get 5 times the coin in as non AP games. So if you have a group of machines that get $100,000 coin in per day and the hold for the house is $10,000 then it’s a bad thing that another group of machines gets $500,000 coin in per day and the hold for the house is $50,000?

6. The pie is limited. No it’s not lol. It doesn’t dawn on him that the AP slots bring many new customers into the casino both recs & wanna be APs who do not have the discipline to understand the advantage or only play when they have an advantage.

7. APs are Terminators, Makes it sound like every AP that comes in robs the place blind and doesn’t cycle a cent through a machine unless they have a 20% edge. In reality when you see a lot of tweakers running around checking machines how many of these people don’t have leaks and are not long term losers? Anyone ever met a single AP at any level that didn’t have some type of leak?

8. Recs experiencing a high hold have an awful time. Why then have penny slots which have RTPs in the 80%s become the most popular machines replacing quarter and dollar machines over the past 2 decades which traditionally had RTPs in the mid to high 90%s? Or a bigger question, why are the most popular games right now super high volatility games like Huff & Puff and Buffalo games where even recs understand that you just get absolutely slaughtered for the chance of an occasionally huge win but more likely you are just funding someone elses huge win?

One more thing they don’t mention I know a few couples where the husband walks around and h somewhat looks for ap machines meanwhile the wife is gambling away on random machines. If they kick the husband out now they have lost the wife’s business

Quote: Hunterhill

One more thing they don’t mention I know a few couples where the husband walks around and h somewhat looks for ap machines meanwhile the wife is gambling away on random machines. If they kick the husband out now they have lost the wife’s business
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I notice a lot of poker players hustling now. These are not hustlers that play poker they are poker players that probably can't make any money doing that and they heard about hustling. You can tell cause they have backpacks and they vape. You could probably say the same about them that the poker room would lose their business. I don't think any manager in the history of casinos has ever lost their job cause they didn't get extra business from someone. But there's plenty who have been promoted for kicking people out and plenty more who have gotten fired for losing money to an ap. I think they probably don't care. We already know hosts have no control over security and managers no matter the player.

One very obvious test I've never heard talked about is do online sportsbooks look if someone plays in the casino before limiting their sports action? Draftkings limited me and no promo'd me on sports. So I don't play anything there now including the casino. Why should I play at a casino that won't take my sports bets?

Quote: Brickapotamus

4. That baccarat players playing these slots is a problem. Baccarat players are some of the biggest degens on the planet. If baccarat players AP some slots to chunk it off back on baccarat how is this a problem?

A couple of nights ago I saw a team of "baccarat players" chasing a royal progressive on a bank of 25 cent machines. Yeah the royal was up there a little, and it was something I would do if I had literally nothing else to do, but it was nowhere near enough to pay a team, especially a team of people capable of playing advantage VP. It's not like more than one of them can hit it. It was also at a store owned by a company infamous for cheap comps, possibly the worst in the city. I agree that a lot of semi-APs are gamblers first, learn something about AP and try to apply it, but their gambler nature they always had will eventually win out over the AP thing they just learned, and fantasies will be indulged, numbers will be shaved, hope, luck, all that stuff will be the driving force in their practice rather than the discipline, homework, and legwork practiced by a successful AP.

Turning a gambler into an AP has the same pitfalls (and admittedly, attraction) as turning a stripper into a wife.

Quote: Hunterhill

One more thing they don’t mention I know a few couples where the husband walks around and h somewhat looks for ap machines meanwhile the wife is gambling away on random machines. If they kick the husband out now they have lost the wife’s business
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The guy talks about Advantage Players who are also getting all the casino marketing benefits while playing in the games +Ev states.

I've had a few guys who are new to all this tell me how they see other suspected Advantage Players(not methy looking people) playing machines at what they think are bad numbers. They are puzzled wondering if they're missing something, or if those guys are just degenerates.

I told them it's hard for me to say without actually seeing the situation myself, but they need to pay attention to the locations, the types of games and how far off they seem to be taking on a machine. Someone could very well be playing something to earn significant amounts of free play while only giving up a few percent on the machine.

Something most of us Advantage Players have known for a while and can still be guilty of it at times. The newer more Serious Advantage Players need to take heed to what this guy noticed. Someone banging away on a machine as fast as possible while showing little or no interest in the game they are playing. We've all seen it, and maybe even done it, legs propped up, talking on your phone or your buddy sitting next to you, looking all around as you play, Etc.

Quote: AxelWolf

Something most of us Advantage Players have known for a while and can still be guilty of it at times. The newer more Serious Advantage Players need to take heed to what this guy noticed. Someone banging away on a machine as fast as possible while showing little or no interest in the game they are playing. We've all seen it, and maybe even done it, legs propped up, talking on your phone or your buddy sitting next to you, looking all around as you play, Etc.
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Hmm. If I were a Casino Staff Member, that would look highly suspicious to me. One thing that I myself find highly suspicious is people randomly changing the Denominations and NOT playing. They just randomly change the Denominations and walk away. 😵‍💫

Interesting video. Nothing new though. And honestly, that Ari guy seems a little slow if it's taken him 5 years to understand all this with direct access to floor and session data.

There can be a lot of opinions about the impact on the casino and whether they should do more against it and what not - I'm not going to continue to beat the dead horse on this.

However, the more of these conversations that happen, the more worried I am that the opportunities will dwindle. I'm not calling the end of the world, but to be honest we have a pretty good thing going. And because it's a limited pie - if too many people learns about the pie or if the pie starts shrinking, there will eventually be less for everyone.

Speaking of advantage play, I myself found a loophole in a Casino game. I have used this loophole to my advantage. 😀 I'm sure that the Casino wouldn't be THRILLED if they found out about me using the loophole to my advantage, but there's absolutely NO specific Casino rules that prohibit using the loophole. 😉💡

Rule number one when using this advantage loophole is to NOT get greedy. I could win BIG money if I get greedy, but the Casino will most likely find me winning BIG money using the greedy approach HIGHLY suspicious. I could win about $28,000 in one DAY using the advantage loophole, but the Casino will DEFINITELY know I am using some kind of advantage loophole if I win about $28,000 in ONE day. Flying UNDER the radar is key. I used the advantage loophole and LOST, but also won some money. You don't want to win the HUGE amount of money in ONE day, you want to lose some money and win some using the advantage loophole.😉

Quote: Nathan

Speaking of advantage play, I myself found a loophole in a Casino game. I have used this loophole to my advantage. 😀 I'm sure that the Casino wouldn't be THRILLED if they found out about me using the loophole to my advantage, but there's absolutely NO specific Casino rules that prohibit using the loophole. 😉💡

Rule number one when using this advantage loophole is to NOT get greedy. I could win BIG money if I get greedy, but the Casino will most likely find me winning BIG money using the greedy approach HIGHLY suspicious. I could win about $20,000 in one DAY using the advantage loophole, but the Casino will DEFINITELY know I am using some kind of advantage loophole if I win about $20,000 in ONE day. Flying UNDER the radar is key. I used the advantage loophole and LOST, but also won some money. You don't want to win the HUGE amount of money in ONE day, you want to lose some money and win some using the advantage loophole.😉
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Congrats on finding the ‘loophole’. With your strategy, how much do you expect to make each day?

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: Nathan

Speaking of advantage play, I myself found a loophole in a Casino game. I have used this loophole to my advantage. 😀 I'm sure that the Casino wouldn't be THRILLED if they found out about me using the loophole to my advantage, but there's absolutely NO specific Casino rules that prohibit using the loophole. 😉💡

Rule number one when using this advantage loophole is to NOT get greedy. I could win BIG money if I get greedy, but the Casino will most likely find me winning BIG money using the greedy approach HIGHLY suspicious. I could win about $20,000 in one DAY using the advantage loophole, but the Casino will DEFINITELY know I am using some kind of advantage loophole if I win about $20,000 in ONE day. Flying UNDER the radar is key. I used the advantage loophole and LOST, but also won some money. You don't want to win the HUGE amount of money in ONE day, you want to lose some money and win some using the advantage loophole.😉
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Congrats on finding the ‘loophole’. With your strategy, how much do you expect to make each day?
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About $900-$3,000 a trip. 😉 Winning about $28,000 a trip will most likely set off HUGE red flags for the Casino, but winning $900-$3,000 REALLY won't be a HUGE red flag for the Casino. 😉

Quote: Nathan

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: Nathan

Speaking of advantage play, I myself found a loophole in a Casino game. I have used this loophole to my advantage. 😀 I'm sure that the Casino wouldn't be THRILLED if they found out about me using the loophole to my advantage, but there's absolutely NO specific Casino rules that prohibit using the loophole. 😉💡

Rule number one when using this advantage loophole is to NOT get greedy. I could win BIG money if I get greedy, but the Casino will most likely find me winning BIG money using the greedy approach HIGHLY suspicious. I could win about $20,000 in one DAY using the advantage loophole, but the Casino will DEFINITELY know I am using some kind of advantage loophole if I win about $20,000 in ONE day. Flying UNDER the radar is key. I used the advantage loophole and LOST, but also won some money. You don't want to win the HUGE amount of money in ONE day, you want to lose some money and win some using the advantage loophole.😉
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Congrats on finding the ‘loophole’. With your strategy, how much do you expect to make each day?
link to original post

About $900-$3,000 a trip. 😉 Winning about $28,000 a trip will most likely set off HUGE red flags for the Casino, but winning $900-$3,000 REALLY won't be a HUGE red flag for the Casino. 😉
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This could potentially go way off topic, can you please take this over to your corner?

Quote: Nathan

Speaking of advantage play, I myself found a loophole in a Casino game. I have used this loophole to my advantage. 😀 I'm sure that the Casino wouldn't be THRILLED if they found out about me using the loophole to my advantage, but there's absolutely NO specific Casino rules that prohibit using the loophole. 😉💡

Rule number one when using this advantage loophole is to NOT get greedy. I could win BIG money if I get greedy, but the Casino will most likely find me winning BIG money using the greedy approach HIGHLY suspicious. I could win about $28,000 in one DAY using the advantage loophole, but the Casino will DEFINITELY know I am using some kind of advantage loophole if I win about $28,000 in ONE day. Flying UNDER the radar is key. I used the advantage loophole and LOST, but also won some money. You don't want to win the HUGE amount of money in ONE day, you want to lose some money and win some using the advantage loophole.😉
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Warning issued for hijacking and flooding (almost the same post was found here). Responses to this post should be made in Nathan's Corner.

Quote: Wizard

Quote: Nathan

Speaking of advantage play, I myself found a loophole in a Casino game. I have used this loophole to my advantage. 😀 I'm sure that the Casino wouldn't be THRILLED if they found out about me using the loophole to my advantage, but there's absolutely NO specific Casino rules that prohibit using the loophole. 😉💡

Rule number one when using this advantage loophole is to NOT get greedy. I could win BIG money if I get greedy, but the Casino will most likely find me winning BIG money using the greedy approach HIGHLY suspicious. I could win about $28,000 in one DAY using the advantage loophole, but the Casino will DEFINITELY know I am using some kind of advantage loophole if I win about $28,000 in ONE day. Flying UNDER the radar is key. I used the advantage loophole and LOST, but also won some money. You don't want to win the HUGE amount of money in ONE day, you want to lose some money and win some using the advantage loophole.😉
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Warning issued for hijacking and flooding (almost the same post was found here). Responses to this post should be made in Nathan's Corner.
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Yep, Axelwolf suggested that I could be inadvertently hijacking this thread and suggested I use Nathan's Corner instead and I did. 😀 I had made the inadvertently hijacking posts here and Axel gave me the fair warning and I posted the posts again in Nathan's Corner. 😀

Another funny thing mentioned in the video is that AP games have a short life cycle in the casino.

As short as 1 quarter. Is this true? I’ve never seen any AP games that didn’t last literally for years.

If you look back 2 years & further these games are still all going strong for the most part.

The only time I’ve ever seen games introduced & then disappear within a quarter are new non APable games usually from smaller manufacturers that don’t catch on and get any play so they are removed quickly.

APable games by their very nature get a lot of action from both recs & APs so they stick around.

I have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.

Of course AP's hurt the casino bottom line.
MHB 10K.
AP takes 10K home.
Ploppy has gambling money and dusts off 2K and takes 8K home.

$60 win on ocean magic. AP takes that home as part of his $600 win for the day. Ploppy cycles it back in on OM or another game.

If AP's didn't exist, ploppies would find games in all RTP payback states. AP's skew that so ploppies tend to find machines near the lowest RTP's. Ploppies never get a 9900 MHB.

Quote: BTLWI

Of course AP's hurt the casino bottom line.
MHB 10K.
AP takes 10K home.
Ploppy has gambling money and dusts off 2K and takes 8K home.

$60 win on ocean magic. AP takes that home as part of his $600 win for the day. Ploppy cycles it back in on OM or another game.

If AP's didn't exist, ploppies would find games in all RTP payback states. AP's skew that so ploppies tend to find machines near the lowest RTP's. Ploppies never get a 9900 MHB.
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A lot of APs take 10Ks a little early due to both competition & to get the future freeplay value.

Its not uncommon for APs to lose $20k, $30k or more on a single day doing this if they run bad.

Some people think of themselves as APs but they are actually losing players doing the above, and they otherwise would never have visited the casino.

How do these types of players affect a casinos bottom line?

Some casinos remove the MHB component of Ainsworth games because they don’t like APs.

Recs love the ability to drop an MHB at anytime on any bet. If you are ever in a casino that has the Ainsworth themes but no MHBs look at how little action those get from anyone compared to the MHB versions.

Quote: Mukke

I have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.
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Yep, the Rashina links games were good at FIRST and I was constantly winning BIG money off of them, but after about a month, they payouts became and are STILL ATROCIOUS and I was quickly losing money on this game when I was at first winning BIG money off of them..☢️

Quote: Nathan

Quote: Mukke

I have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.
link to original post

Yep, the Rashina links games were good at FIRST and I was constantly winning BIG money off of them, but after about a month, they payouts became and are STILL ATROCIOUS and I was quickly losing money on this game when I was at first winning BIG money off of them..☢️
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What are the Rashina Links games? Never seen or heard of them & a Google search shows nothing

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: Nathan

Quote: Mukke

I have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.
link to original post

Yep, the Rashina links games were good at FIRST and I was constantly winning BIG money off of them, but after about a month, they payouts became and are STILL ATROCIOUS and I was quickly losing money on this game when I was at first winning BIG money off of them..☢️
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What are the Rashina Links games? Never seen or heard of them & a Google search shows nothing
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Those are AP games where vultures try to rush you off the game.

"Stop Rashina me!"

Quote: Mukke

I have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.
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Interesting. I’ve never seen that, but also I don’t travel to many different areas so maybe I’ve missed some.

Would you be willing to name 1 AP game that came out strong but then died off in less than 12 months?

I don’t know all of them so possibility either missed some or it could be out of site out of mind, maybe I forgot one or more because they weren’t around long enough to remember.

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: BTLWI

Of course AP's hurt the casino bottom line.
MHB 10K.
AP takes 10K home.
Ploppy has gambling money and dusts off 2K and takes 8K home.

$60 win on ocean magic. AP takes that home as part of his $600 win for the day. Ploppy cycles it back in on OM or another game.

If AP's didn't exist, ploppies would find games in all RTP payback states. AP's skew that so ploppies tend to find machines near the lowest RTP's. Ploppies never get a 9900 MHB.
link to original post

A lot of APs take 10Ks a little early due to both competition & to get the future freeplay value.

Its not uncommon for APs to lose $20k, $30k or more on a single day doing this if they run bad.

Some people think of themselves as APs but they are actually losing players doing the above, and they otherwise would never have visited the casino.

How do these types of players affect a casinos bottom line?

Some casinos remove the MHB component of Ainsworth games because they don’t like APs.

Recs love the ability to drop an MHB at anytime on any bet. If you are ever in a casino that has the Ainsworth themes but no MHBs look at how little action those get from anyone compared to the MHB versions.
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The APs that take 10Ks a little early due to both competition & to get the future free-play value are making games less attractive to ploppies and making money from the casino.

How many faux APs are out there that can afford to lose $20k, $30k or more on a single day doing that? What is their over all loss at the end of the year? I would assume at some point they would run out of money or come to the realization they don't actually have an advantage.

Perhaps you know them well enough to know they don't have an advantage, but I would not automatically assume someone who is chasing 10Ks a little early doesn't know what they are doing, they might be getting way more on the back end than anyone suspects.

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: Nathan

Quote: Mukke

I have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.
link to original post

Yep, the Rashina links games were good at FIRST and I was constantly winning BIG money off of them, but after about a month, they payouts became and are STILL ATROCIOUS and I was quickly losing money on this game when I was at first winning BIG money off of them..☢️
link to original post

What are the Rashina Links games? Never seen or heard of them & a Google search shows nothing
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Note to Brikapotamus:

Nathan is the opposite of an Advantage Player.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: BTLWI

Of course AP's hurt the casino bottom line.
MHB 10K.
AP takes 10K home.
Ploppy has gambling money and dusts off 2K and takes 8K home.

$60 win on ocean magic. AP takes that home as part of his $600 win for the day. Ploppy cycles it back in on OM or another game.

If AP's didn't exist, ploppies would find games in all RTP payback states. AP's skew that so ploppies tend to find machines near the lowest RTP's. Ploppies never get a 9900 MHB.
link to original post

A lot of APs take 10Ks a little early due to both competition & to get the future freeplay value.

Its not uncommon for APs to lose $20k, $30k or more on a single day doing this if they run bad.

Some people think of themselves as APs but they are actually losing players doing the above, and they otherwise would never have visited the casino.

How do these types of players affect a casinos bottom line?

Some casinos remove the MHB component of Ainsworth games because they don’t like APs.

Recs love the ability to drop an MHB at anytime on any bet. If you are ever in a casino that has the Ainsworth themes but no MHBs look at how little action those get from anyone compared to the MHB versions.
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The APs that take 10Ks a little early due to both competition & to get the future free-play value are making games less attractive to ploppies and making money from the casino.

How many faux APs are out there that can afford to lose $20k, $30k or more on a single day doing that? What is their over all loss at the end of the year? I would assume at some point they would run out of money or come to the realization they don't actually have an advantage.

Perhaps you know them well enough to know they don't have an advantage, but I would not automatically assume someone who is chasing 10Ks a little early doesn't know what they are doing, they might be getting way more on the back end than anyone suspects.
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You are obviously a very sharp guy so you may be assuming that anyone who considers themselves an AP & chasing $10ks is as sharp as you but more often than not they aren’t.

I know for a few reasons, I have friends that frequently play these and they’ll tell me how bad they are running and how far are they down. And also how they played a bad number because “there was nothing else to play.”

Also I’m aware of the RTPs and max free play offers at most of my area casinos so I’ll see someone playing a barely positive number at a place with good RTP and decent freeplay and then the next week I’ll see them playing the same number at a place with bad RTP and low max freeplay knowing they are going to get destroyed unless they get very lucky.

Bottom line I agree that a true AP that is disciplined and really knows what they are doing can take some money out of a casino.

I just believe that the number of people who can actually do this is vastly overestimated and its more likely that the entire group of people who appear to be APs may actually be a net positive for casinos.

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Brickapotamus

Quote: BTLWI

Of course AP's hurt the casino bottom line.
MHB 10K.
AP takes 10K home.
Ploppy has gambling money and dusts off 2K and takes 8K home.

$60 win on ocean magic. AP takes that home as part of his $600 win for the day. Ploppy cycles it back in on OM or another game.

If AP's didn't exist, ploppies would find games in all RTP payback states. AP's skew that so ploppies tend to find machines near the lowest RTP's. Ploppies never get a 9900 MHB.
link to original post

A lot of APs take 10Ks a little early due to both competition & to get the future freeplay value.

Its not uncommon for APs to lose $20k, $30k or more on a single day doing this if they run bad.

Some people think of themselves as APs but they are actually losing players doing the above, and they otherwise would never have visited the casino.

How do these types of players affect a casinos bottom line?

Some casinos remove the MHB component of Ainsworth games because they don’t like APs.

Recs love the ability to drop an MHB at anytime on any bet. If you are ever in a casino that has the Ainsworth themes but no MHBs look at how little action those get from anyone compared to the MHB versions.
link to original post

The APs that take 10Ks a little early due to both competition & to get the future free-play value are making games less attractive to ploppies and making money from the casino.

How many faux APs are out there that can afford to lose $20k, $30k or more on a single day doing that? What is their over all loss at the end of the year? I would assume at some point they would run out of money or come to the realization they don't actually have an advantage.

Perhaps you know them well enough to know they don't have an advantage, but I would not automatically assume someone who is chasing 10Ks a little early doesn't know what they are doing, they might be getting way more on the back end than anyone suspects.
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You are obviously a very sharp guy so you may be assuming that anyone who considers themselves an AP & chasing $10ks is as sharp as you but more often than not they aren’t.

I know for a few reasons, I have friends that frequently play these and they’ll tell me how bad they are running and how far are they down. And also how they played a bad number because “there was nothing else to play.”

Also I’m aware of the RTPs and max free play offers at most of my area casinos so I’ll see someone playing a barely positive number at a place with good RTP and decent freeplay and then the next week I’ll see them playing the same number at a place with bad RTP and low max freeplay knowing they are going to get destroyed unless they get very lucky.

Bottom line I agree that a true AP that is disciplined and really knows what they are doing can take some money out of a casino.

I just believe that the number of people who can actually do this is vastly overestimated and its more likely that the entire group of people who appear to be APs may actually be a net positive for casinos.
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I can't disagree with anything you said😊😁

But seriously, I do think things get blown out of proportion and fear-mongering runs amuck with people who have something to tout.

I think there's a way to solve some of the new machine Vulturing problems, it won't stop Advantage Players, but it will cut down on vultures.

In its simplicity, figure out how to give the ploppies back their earned value before they leave the machine.

For example, once the game hits positive territory or close, and once someone cashes out or makes their last spin, have a notice pop up on the machine saying, "Hey valued player if you are planning on not continuing on this machine before you leave make sure to click here to get your free bonus spin or collect your earned/free winnings.

I can't remember the name now, but I believe there was a video poker game with a wheel (Wheel Poker?)that came out probably around the time that The Cosmo opened and did something similar to this.

Yes, I understand there are all kinds of problems with a simplistic method such as I described, but I believe a think-tank that involved Advantage Players could come up with something pretty damn good similar to this.

I bet Ahigh could come up with something with help from an Advantage Player.

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes, I understand there are all kinds of problems with a simplistic method such as I described, but I believe a think-tank that involved Advantage Players could come up with something pretty damn good similar to this.
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Why would an AP poison the well?

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AxelWolf

Yes, I understand there are all kinds of problems with a simplistic method such as I described, but I believe a think-tank that involved Advantage Players could come up with something pretty damn good similar to this.
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Why would an AP poison the well?
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You tell me, I've been asking myself the same thing since I started. And yet it happens, just look at all the Darksiders who've written books, how-to websites, and even got into consulting.

Did you see the part in the video where the guy claims some Advantage Players basically spilled the beans and put this guy on his path to creating an algorithm/program to identify Advantage players?

I've been asked to consult on at least four occasions and I declined. I don't know that I could ever sleep at night knowing that I was hurting the Advantage Play "community", partners, former partners, and current Advantage Player friends.

Is there a number? Perhaps there is a number, I guess one can never say never. I highly doubt the number it would take could realistically be offered. If ever there was, I would make danm certain I shared with people close to me in the Advantage Play world.

Quote: AxelWolf

I think there's a way to solve some of the new machine Vulturing problems, it won't stop Advantage Players, but it will cut down on vultures.

In its simplicity, figure out how to give the ploppies back their earned value before they leave the machine.

For example, once the game hits positive territory or close, and once someone cashes out or makes their last spin, have a notice pop up on the machine saying, "Hey valued player if you are planning on not continuing on this machine before you leave make sure to click here to get your free bonus spin or collect your earned/free winnings.

I can't remember the name now, but I believe there was a video poker game with a wheel (Wheel Poker?)that came out probably around the time that The Cosmo opened and did something similar to this.

Yes, I understand there are all kinds of problems with a simplistic method such as I described, but I believe a think-tank that involved Advantage Players could come up with something pretty damn good similar to this.

I bet Ahigh could come up with something with help from an Advantage Player.
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Wouldn't that just open up a different form of advantage play? I would purposely cash out early every cycle just to get the message to click here for a free spin.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

I think there's a way to solve some of the new machine Vulturing problems, it won't stop Advantage Players, but it will cut down on vultures.

In its simplicity, figure out how to give the ploppies back their earned value before they leave the machine.

For example, once the game hits positive territory or close, and once someone cashes out or makes their last spin, have a notice pop up on the machine saying, "Hey valued player if you are planning on not continuing on this machine before you leave make sure to click here to get your free bonus spin or collect your earned/free winnings.

I can't remember the name now, but I believe there was a video poker game with a wheel (Wheel Poker?)that came out probably around the time that The Cosmo opened and did something similar to this.

Yes, I understand there are all kinds of problems with a simplistic method such as I described, but I believe a think-tank that involved Advantage Players could come up with something pretty damn good similar to this.

I bet Ahigh could come up with something with help from an Advantage Player.
link to original post

Wouldn't that just open up a different form of advantage play? I would purposely cash out early every cycle just to get the message to click here for a free spin.
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Not how I'm envisioning it, it would only give the player back their accumulated value and then reset (perhaps even at a discounted rate).

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Dieter

Why would an AP poison the well?
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You tell me, I've been asking myself the same thing since I started.
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I keep coming back to two ideas.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Perhaps people wrongly think they will be in the good graces of a club by helping make conditions unfavorable for scavengers. I think this is a footgun.

"Never smarten up a chump." I'm actually a bit torn on this, because a bobble-sign that says "This game has non-random features. Do not allow yourself to be chased away from pending value by a scammer!" may be justified.

I just listened to that video. I find the whole argument disingenuous.

So the casinos should be concerned that ploppies aren't getting proper value because they lose quicker when the AP games are negative. So they have a worse experience and don't want to come back.

That seems to be their argument.

Okay then why would a casino install triple zero roulette where ploppies who don't get it will lose their money faster and not come back because of their worse experience?

I can't stand hypocrisy!