billryan
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smoothgrh
March 5th, 2023 at 3:09:28 PM permalink
Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
SOOPOO
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March 5th, 2023 at 3:15:04 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



That’s good. She’s a Dem so she’ll need a Repub to sponsor with her unless she already has one. I wish her well!
AxelWolf
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March 5th, 2023 at 4:10:29 PM permalink
I prefer for things to just stay how they are now. I believe if this happens there will be a bigger downside.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
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March 5th, 2023 at 4:55:38 PM permalink
The paperwork reduction would free an awful lot of manhours and save the casinos a lot of money. I can see where it might not be good for the top couple of percentage of people, but it seems like a win for most people. It might be a win-win if the casinos give back some savings into payouts.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
BleedingChipsSlowly
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March 5th, 2023 at 4:58:30 PM permalink
@AxleWolf: How so? An increase to $5000 doesn’t even cover the inflated value of 1200 1977 dollars.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
ChumpChange
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March 5th, 2023 at 5:18:07 PM permalink
If you get 90% fewer W-2G's per year with this higher threshold, it does reduce the paperwork.
AxelWolf
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March 5th, 2023 at 5:54:52 PM permalink
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

@AxleWolf: How so? An increase to $5000 doesn’t even cover the inflated value of 1200 1977 dollars.
link to original post


I don't really know how, but I don't think the IRS is just going to sit back and do nothing. it will probably be better for the general public and the casinos. You are supposed to report that stuff regardless of the amount.

As for Advantage Players, for the longest time, lots of promotions were based on that $1200 + amount.
There's always a chance it could turn out for the better in that aspect somehow, but most likely it will turn out worst in the long run with far fewer opportunities.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
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March 5th, 2023 at 6:29:01 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

@AxleWolf: How so? An increase to $5000 doesn’t even cover the inflated value of 1200 1977 dollars.
link to original post


I don't really know how, but I don't think the IRS is just going to sit back and do nothing. it will probably be better for the general public and the casinos. You are supposed to report that stuff regardless of the amount.

As for Advantage Players, for the longest time, lots of promotions were based on that $1200 + amount.
There's always a chance it could turn out for the better in that aspect somehow, but most likely it will turn out worst in the long run with far fewer opportunities.
link to original post



Sometimes you have to take one for the team.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ThatDonGuy
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March 5th, 2023 at 7:02:05 PM permalink
Last session's bill appeared to have a fundamental flaw in it. (The current bill does not appear in the online database as of 3/5).

The bill added an exception for slot machines to the reporting requirement in 26 USC 6041(a).

However, the specific reporting requirement for slot machines is in 26 CFR 1.6041-10, which the bill does not amend.
AxelWolf
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March 5th, 2023 at 7:17:58 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

@AxleWolf: How so? An increase to $5000 doesn’t even cover the inflated value of 1200 1977 dollars.
link to original post


I don't really know how, but I don't think the IRS is just going to sit back and do nothing. it will probably be better for the general public and the casinos. You are supposed to report that stuff regardless of the amount.

As for Advantage Players, for the longest time, lots of promotions were based on that $1200 + amount.
There's always a chance it could turn out for the better in that aspect somehow, but most likely it will turn out worst in the long run with far fewer opportunities.
link to original post



Sometimes you have to take one for the team.
link to original post

I have taken more than I can count.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
JoeTheDragon
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March 5th, 2023 at 7:29:51 PM permalink
table games as well?
ThatDonGuy
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March 5th, 2023 at 7:42:18 PM permalink
Quote: JoeTheDragon

table games as well?
link to original post


As currently written, no - and not keno or bingo, either - just slot machines, which I assume includes VP.
LoquaciousMoFW
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March 5th, 2023 at 8:36:32 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Last session's bill appeared to have a fundamental flaw in it. (The current bill does not appear in the online database as of 3/5).

The bill added an exception for slot machines to the reporting requirement in 26 USC 6041(a).

However, the specific reporting requirement for slot machines is in 26 CFR 1.6041-10, which the bill does not amend.
link to original post


That's because the legislature doesn't create regulations, the executive branch (agencies, deparments, etc.) promulgates regulations to implement the laws the legislative branch creates. If there is a dispute that the executive branch isn't implementing the laws correctly, then the judicial branch gets involved. Separation of powers doctrine prevents legislature from promulgating regulations. Essentially, "you can tell us what to do, but not how exactly to do it." Solution is to write laws with greater specificity, essentially forcing the executive to follow the desired path.
ThatDonGuy
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Dieter
March 21st, 2023 at 4:53:40 PM permalink
The bill is HR 1661, officially introduced and moved to committee on 3/17
SOOPOO
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March 22nd, 2023 at 5:13:52 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



I read the stuff available on the link just recently provided. No actual text available yet. But the headline says to ‘repeal’ the exise tax on gambling. That’s of course WAY DIFFERENT than changing a reporting requirement (issuing a W-2 G). I have no idea how this process plays out from here as far as timing.
rxwine
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March 22nd, 2023 at 5:24:45 PM permalink
I don't know that the IRS takes positions on new laws at all. They're more like the cop. Unless it's like an employee related law. Seems like they'd be fine with less work.

By positions, I mean only thumbs up or thumbs down, they do interpret them as they come in.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AZDuffman
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March 23rd, 2023 at 4:04:48 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
DRich
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AxelWolf
March 23rd, 2023 at 10:22:56 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
AxelWolf
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Mission146
March 23rd, 2023 at 2:45:10 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
LESLOSACKETT
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March 23rd, 2023 at 3:08:02 PM permalink
Wait until the CBO reports how much revenue will be lost, To say nothing of payouts seized by many states for state taxes, back child support payments, etc. Dead on arrival!
AZDuffman
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March 23rd, 2023 at 3:44:02 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
darkoz
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March 23rd, 2023 at 3:56:18 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
link to original post



Wouldn't LESS W2-G documents make it harder to prove that?

Lower threshold means more W2-G means more proof you won money at casino.

Or am I missing something here.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AZDuffman
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March 23rd, 2023 at 4:33:27 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
link to original post



Wouldn't LESS W2-G documents make it harder to prove that?

Lower threshold means more W2-G means more proof you won money at casino.

Or am I missing something here.
link to original post



Ideally all the thresholds would be raised. So you could walk into a bank with $10,000 and no worries about depositing an amount that raised eyebrows 50 years ago. At least that is what I was suggesting.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
mcallister3200
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March 23rd, 2023 at 4:34:26 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
link to original post



Wouldn't LESS W2-G documents make it harder to prove that?

Lower threshold means more W2-G means more proof you won money at casino.

Or am I missing something here.
link to original post



He’s referring to his added .02 hoping it will raise CTR threshold as well, not the W2G’s.
AZDuffman
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March 23rd, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
link to original post



Correct.

Wouldn't LESS W2-G documents make it harder to prove that?

Lower threshold means more W2-G means more proof you won money at casino.

Or am I missing something here.
link to original post



He’s referring to his added .02 hoping it will raise CTR threshold as well, not the W2G’s.
link to original post

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
darkoz
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March 23rd, 2023 at 5:26:57 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
link to original post



Wouldn't LESS W2-G documents make it harder to prove that?

Lower threshold means more W2-G means more proof you won money at casino.

Or am I missing something here.
link to original post



Ideally all the thresholds would be raised. So you could walk into a bank with $10,000 and no worries about depositing an amount that raised eyebrows 50 years ago. At least that is what I was suggesting.
link to original post



Oh I see.

Probably wouldn't work.

Everywhere I go they ask for ID over $3000 claiming they need to since anything under the $10000 threshold but above $3000 looks suspicious like you are trying to avoid the $10,000.

So if they raised it to $15,000 then they would pass restrictions that if you put in $10,000 you would be scrutinized for structuring
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
mcallister3200
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March 23rd, 2023 at 5:45:37 PM permalink
Unfortunately regardless of the law I’d expect large cash transactions to be continually more uncommon than it would have been 50 years ago. Most probably have more to worry about with the highway patrol than their banker.

It’s the only practical way to really have any control whatsoever of how your otherwise private data is collected and used, but society traded in any expectation of privacy a long time ago in exchange for a couple % cashback rewards and worshipping a credit score like a religion.
AxelWolf
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March 23rd, 2023 at 5:49:16 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
link to original post



Wouldn't LESS W2-G documents make it harder to prove that?

Lower threshold means more W2-G means more proof you won money at casino.

Or am I missing something here.
link to original post



Ideally all the thresholds would be raised. So you could walk into a bank with $10,000 and no worries about depositing an amount that raised eyebrows 50 years ago. At least that is what I was suggesting.
link to original post



Oh I see.

Probably wouldn't work.

Everywhere I go they ask for ID over $3000 claiming they need to since anything under the $10000 threshold but above $3000 looks suspicious like you are trying to avoid the $10,000.

So if they raised it to $15,000 then they would pass restrictions that if you put in $10,000 you would be scrutinized for structuring
link to original post

when it comes to gambling ans stuttering they can consider "any amounts" structuring.

I'll give some advice and an example.

Let's say you are sports bettor with multiple accounts at various casinos.
Let's say you have ran up many of your account's,.perhaps you lost on a few accounts.
Now you need some.cash to make bets non online bets or you need to balance some accounts.

Your not trying to avoid any CTRs but multiple cash outs just happen to be under 10k that's just hoe the math works out to balance and make non online bets. IE. from various accounts you cash out 7k, 5k 8 k 4k 6k 3k. That can be considered structuring and they can confiscate the remaining money in your account's ans charge you with structuring. This isn't Hypothetical something similar actually happened. Parties involved had to settle and lose a bunch of money to keep it out of the court's and risk being found guilty.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mcallister3200
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March 23rd, 2023 at 5:55:18 PM permalink
Structuring is a pretty messed up statute as the way it’s written the same action can be considered legal or illegal with the only difference being intent. How coincidental.
AZDuffman
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RogerKint
March 24th, 2023 at 2:48:15 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: billryan

Congressman Titus has introduced a bill that raises the paperwork threshold to $5,000 from the current $1200. It sat in limbo during the last session of Congress as they waited for The Treasury to update their regulations. Now they will attempt it via an Act of Congress.
It was last updated in 1977.
link to original post



Way past time. Hopefully it also raises the $10,000 limit for reporting cash transactions.
link to original post



Don't get your hopes up. It has no chance.
link to original post

And if it does, I guarantee it won't be all 🌹 roses.
link to original post



I just would like to see it be so you can sell a car for cash without having to prove to your bank you are not selling dope.
link to original post



Wouldn't LESS W2-G documents make it harder to prove that?

Lower threshold means more W2-G means more proof you won money at casino.

Or am I missing something here.
link to original post



Ideally all the thresholds would be raised. So you could walk into a bank with $10,000 and no worries about depositing an amount that raised eyebrows 50 years ago. At least that is what I was suggesting.
link to original post



Oh I see.

Probably wouldn't work.

Everywhere I go they ask for ID over $3000 claiming they need to since anything under the $10000 threshold but above $3000 looks suspicious like you are trying to avoid the $10,000.

So if they raised it to $15,000 then they would pass restrictions that if you put in $10,000 you would be scrutinized for structuring
link to original post



I am taking raise it to $50,000. That would be about in line with what inflation has done the last 50 years. Currently the best available answer is crypto. However, it has problems as the bank can just lock you out from ACH transfers from a crypto exchange.

We need to get over this "he has cash so he must be selling dope" mentality. But we will not as locking out the cash economy is about control. Same control as they used to lock Russia out of markets currently, just a smaller scale.

When I was processing mortgages there was a requirement of explaining "large" cash deposits into a bank account the previous 18 months. I kept asking what is "large" with no answer. I ignored it on a few at first for deposits of a few hundred dollars. Nope. "Large" means ANY cash deposit. Your mother gives you $100 for your birthday and you deposit it? You had better explain!

Time to end this madness.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
DRich
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SOOPOO
March 24th, 2023 at 5:07:34 AM permalink
I do not understand why people care about CTR's if they are not doing anything wrong. CTR's are not even reported to the IRS. Yes, if the IRS is interested in you they can look them up but FinCEN does not report them to the IRS.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
billryan
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March 24th, 2023 at 8:13:24 AM permalink
As someone who spent most of his life dealing in cash, I think the $10,000 limit on CTRs is fine. Having a cash business in what was the cocaine capital of the North East, I had no problem with having to show my sources were legit.

Both as a bar/club owner and a collectibles dealer, I transacted millions of dollars of cash and once you have established yourself with a bank, it is not a problem.
The world is changing. I never accepted plastic in any club, preferring to have an ATM on site, as another profit center. These days I'm not sure a bar can get by without accepting plastic, and people spending future money tend to spend more than people paying out of pocket.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ChumpChange
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March 24th, 2023 at 9:13:57 AM permalink
Cops are seizing money illegally without charges and requiring you to sue them to get it back, which is prohibitively expensive. They've criminalized the possession of cash with no supporting crimes.

I've got to say there's a lot of hysteria on YouTube over the introduction of FedNow on July 23rd, 2023. Banks will be able to clear checks in 1 minute instead of 2-7 days. But the FedNow system will know all your purchases which is a violation of privacy. FedNow could put local banks out of business when they get around to issuing CBDC which may be an absolute necessity in a hyperinflationary defaulting gov't scenario. It's clear $100 bills will become worthless and the Treasury will not be delivering higher denominations no matter what.

RT: Jim Cramer: "Your money is safe at Deutsche Bank”
Rest in peace DB
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Mar 24, 2023
Dieter
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April 6th, 2023 at 5:59:26 AM permalink
Just got notified that the text of HR 1661 has been introduced.

The meat:
Quote:

A BILL



To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to repeal the excise taxes
on wagering.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the ``Discriminatory Gaming Tax Repeal Act
of 2023''.

SEC. 2. REPEAL OF EXCISE TAXES ON WAGERING.

(a) In General.--Chapter 35 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986
(relating to taxes on wagering) is repealed.
(b) Effective Date.--The amendment made by this section shall apply
to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2022.



I don't feel like massaging the formatting quirks out.
May the cards fall in your favor.
rsactuary
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April 6th, 2023 at 6:23:35 AM permalink
So what is an excise tax? Because taxes taken out of jackpots would be considered income taxes, yes?

I'm hoping it means that all gambling income becomes non-taxable, but that's probably wishful thinking.
Dieter
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April 6th, 2023 at 6:57:56 AM permalink
I think it is a bill to repeal what is essentially a sales tax on wagers accepted by a bookmaker.

Hoping someone can dig into it, but I don't think this is going to change the $1200 W2G limit.
May the cards fall in your favor.
rsactuary
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SOOPOO
April 6th, 2023 at 7:11:39 AM permalink
^ doesn't sound like it.....
TheCapitalShip
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April 6th, 2023 at 7:33:22 AM permalink
I'm not gonna pretend to be completely knowledgeable on taxes, but excise taxes and sales taxes are two different things.

One important distinction is that sales taxes are collected from the consumer and charged on everything, while excise taxes are only charged on specific goods/services and generally the merchant is responsible for paying the tax to the government.

There are excise taxes on cigarettes for example (flat amount per pack), property taxes are also considered excise taxes.

As for if the 1200$ limit could be considered such, I suppose it may be classified as an ad valorem tax since it's a tax based on the value of a jackpot.

Of course I'm not an expert and I'm not sure if that's how the 1200$ limit is classified, my first thought is as an income tax but I can see how it may be an excise tax...


EDIT: nevermind I'm dumb it literally says in the bill to repeal "excise taxes on wagering" I wrote all of that for nothing lol.
Mental
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April 6th, 2023 at 7:59:47 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I'll give some advice and an example.

Let's say you are sports bettor with multiple accounts at various casinos.
Let's say you have ran up many of your account's, .perhaps you lost on a few accounts.
Now you need some cash to make bets non online bets or you need to balance some accounts.

Your not trying to avoid any CTRs but multiple cash outs just happen to be under 10k that's just hoe the math works out to balance and make non online bets. IE. from various accounts you cash out 7k, 5k 8 k 4k 6k 3k. That can be considered structuring and they can confiscate the remaining money in your account's and charge you with structuring. This isn't Hypothetical something similar actually happened. Parties involved had to settle and lose a bunch of money to keep it out of the court's and risk being found guilty.


That is why my advice would be to use electronic transactions to balance accounts. That way everything is transparent. Even if you need cash to make a bet right away, you should have no issues as long as you have credit at the book. Just arrange ETF withdrawals from the various sportsbook accounts to the bank account that you use for your markers. The marker won't hit the account until long after the withdrawals have been completed.

It is annoying to have to constantly keep the structuring rules in mind. However, you can reduce your exposure to accidental structuring by doing as much as possible via bank ETF, PayPal, or VIP Preferred. VIP Preferred actually extends credit for a few days, so you can make deposits even if the money is not yet in the account you are using. However, a casino/book credit line seems very useful for avoiding large cash transactions.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
darkoz
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April 6th, 2023 at 10:18:48 AM permalink
It refers specifically to a repeal of excise tax on wagering from IRS code chapter 35.

Looking it up the excise tax in that chapter is as below.



So clearly not anything to do with the $1200 limit or W2-G. That was a nice fantasy lol

It's about taxes wagering facilities need to pay of .25% of wagers made to the IRS.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
billryan
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April 6th, 2023 at 10:25:47 AM permalink
???????????????

The Act calls for slot wins of up to $5,000 to no longer require paperwork.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
gordonm888
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April 6th, 2023 at 10:33:18 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

It refers specifically to a repeal of excise tax on wagering from IRS code chapter 35.

Looking it up the excise tax in that chapter is as below.



So clearly not anything to do with the $1200 limit or W2-G. That was a nice fantasy lol

It's about taxes wagering facilities need to pay of .25% of wagers made to the IRS.
link to original post



A tax on any wager amounting to 0.25% of the wager? Is that currently being paid by casinos and sportsbooks? It certainly isn't being paid by poker rooms. That would have a massive effect on the entire gambling industry.

And 2% tax on wagers made that are not approved under state laws? What the heck are those - Illegal sportsbooks? Indian casinos? Off-shore sports betting? On-line casinos? Home poker games?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Dieter
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April 6th, 2023 at 10:36:18 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

???????????????

The Act calls for slot wins of up to $5,000 to no longer require paperwork.
link to original post



Which Act, please?

The current HR 1661 as proposed does not seem to call for the change you mention.
May the cards fall in your favor.
billryan
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April 6th, 2023 at 10:49:51 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: billryan

???????????????

The Act calls for slot wins of up to $5,000 to no longer require paperwork.
link to original post



Which Act, please?

The current HR 1661 as proposed does not seem to call for the change you mention.
link to original post



In an interview given in late March, Rep. Titus said she was intoducing two pieces of legislation. One would raise the limits to $5,000 and the other would do away with the quarter ofone percent 'handle tax" on sports books.
I'm thinking you are reading the wrong bill.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Dieter
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April 6th, 2023 at 11:19:53 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: Dieter

Quote: billryan

???????????????

The Act calls for slot wins of up to $5,000 to no longer require paperwork.
link to original post



Which Act, please?

The current HR 1661 as proposed does not seem to call for the change you mention.
link to original post



In an interview given in late March, Rep. Titus said she was intoducing two pieces of legislation. One would raise the limits to $5,000 and the other would do away with the quarter ofone percent 'handle tax" on sports books.
I'm thinking you are reading the wrong bill.
link to original post



https://www.congress.gov/member/dina-titus/T000468?loclr=cga-member

I'm thinking that Congresswoman Titus may not have introduced a different bill that is gambling related. :/
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
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April 6th, 2023 at 11:36:54 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: darkoz

It refers specifically to a repeal of excise tax on wagering from IRS code chapter 35.

Looking it up the excise tax in that chapter is as below.



So clearly not anything to do with the $1200 limit or W2-G. That was a nice fantasy lol

It's about taxes wagering facilities need to pay of .25% of wagers made to the IRS.
link to original post



A tax on any wager amounting to 0.25% of the wager? Is that currently being paid by casinos and sportsbooks? It certainly isn't being paid by poker rooms. That would have a massive effect on the entire gambling industry.

And 2% tax on wagers made that are not approved under state laws? What the heck are those - Illegal sportsbooks? Indian casinos? Off-shore sports betting? On-line casinos? Home poker games?
link to original post



Apparently casinos pay the .25% excise tax on wagers. Not even jackpots specifically but wagers.

As for the specific mention of unsanctioned wagers that's correct that they are referring to illegal wagers

I have linked in the past to IRS tax code which states ALL CRIMINAL ACTIVITY that has financial gain is taxable. The tax code specifically mentions political kickbacks, bribery, drug proceeds etc.

Just because you make your money illegally doesn't mean you get to avoid paying your fair share of US taxes LoL.

However I don't believe the tax laws were written with any belief that criminals would actually pay their taxes. What I believe the intent of the regulations is to solidify any governmental attempts at an Al Capone prosecution. Where in order to get a known criminal off the street the government goes after non-payment of taxes

That would mean such non-payment has to be codified in the tax regulation. Otherwise the defense of the criminal would be his illegal activity is not a taxable income. So it's purpose is more for law enforcement prosecution than any expectations of receiving financial proceeds.
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SOOPOO
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April 6th, 2023 at 12:47:54 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: darkoz

It refers specifically to a repeal of excise tax on wagering from IRS code chapter 35.

Looking it up the excise tax in that chapter is as below.



So clearly not anything to do with the $1200 limit or W2-G. That was a nice fantasy lol

It's about taxes wagering facilities need to pay of .25% of wagers made to the IRS.
link to original post



A tax on any wager amounting to 0.25% of the wager? Is that currently being paid by casinos and sportsbooks? It certainly isn't being paid by poker rooms. That would have a massive effect on the entire gambling industry.

And 2% tax on wagers made that are not approved under state laws? What the heck are those - Illegal sportsbooks? Indian casinos? Off-shore sports betting? On-line casinos? Home poker games?
link to original post



Apparently casinos pay the .25% excise tax on wagers. Not even jackpots specifically but wagers.

As for the specific mention of unsanctioned wagers that's correct that they are referring to illegal wagers

I have linked in the past to IRS tax code which states ALL CRIMINAL ACTIVITY that has financial gain is taxable. The tax code specifically mentions political kickbacks, bribery, drug proceeds etc.

Just because you make your money illegally doesn't mean you get to avoid paying your fair share of US taxes LoL.

However I don't believe the tax laws were written with any belief that criminals would actually pay their taxes. What I believe the intent of the regulations is to solidify any governmental attempts at an Al Capone prosecution. Where in order to get a known criminal off the street the government goes after non-payment of taxes

That would mean such non-payment has to be codified in the tax regulation. Otherwise the defense of the criminal would be his illegal activity is not a taxable income. So it's purpose is more for law enforcement prosecution than any expectations of receiving financial proceeds.
link to original post



I find it hard to believe casinos are paying 0.25% of ALL monies waged at their sites to the feds in the form of this excise tax.
I’ve bet $100 to win a dime on some silly favorites. Are you saying the book is paying me a dime and the feds a quarter?
billryan
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April 6th, 2023 at 12:50:28 PM permalink
It's a tax on sports betting. There is also a $50 federal license fee for every employee involved in sports betting.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
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April 6th, 2023 at 1:02:30 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: darkoz

It refers specifically to a repeal of excise tax on wagering from IRS code chapter 35.

Looking it up the excise tax in that chapter is as below.



So clearly not anything to do with the $1200 limit or W2-G. That was a nice fantasy lol

It's about taxes wagering facilities need to pay of .25% of wagers made to the IRS.
link to original post



A tax on any wager amounting to 0.25% of the wager? Is that currently being paid by casinos and sportsbooks? It certainly isn't being paid by poker rooms. That would have a massive effect on the entire gambling industry.

And 2% tax on wagers made that are not approved under state laws? What the heck are those - Illegal sportsbooks? Indian casinos? Off-shore sports betting? On-line casinos? Home poker games?
link to original post



Apparently casinos pay the .25% excise tax on wagers. Not even jackpots specifically but wagers.

As for the specific mention of unsanctioned wagers that's correct that they are referring to illegal wagers

I have linked in the past to IRS tax code which states ALL CRIMINAL ACTIVITY that has financial gain is taxable. The tax code specifically mentions political kickbacks, bribery, drug proceeds etc.

Just because you make your money illegally doesn't mean you get to avoid paying your fair share of US taxes LoL.

However I don't believe the tax laws were written with any belief that criminals would actually pay their taxes. What I believe the intent of the regulations is to solidify any governmental attempts at an Al Capone prosecution. Where in order to get a known criminal off the street the government goes after non-payment of taxes

That would mean such non-payment has to be codified in the tax regulation. Otherwise the defense of the criminal would be his illegal activity is not a taxable income. So it's purpose is more for law enforcement prosecution than any expectations of receiving financial proceeds.
link to original post



I find it hard to believe casinos are paying 0.25% of ALL monies waged at their sites to the feds in the form of this excise tax.
I’ve bet $100 to win a dime on some silly favorites. Are you saying the book is paying me a dime and the feds a quarter?
link to original post



Bill Ryan says this is specifically for sports wagering. I don't know myself but nothing in the excise tax law I quoted above specified sports.

It also seems weird to have had such a law (dating back a few decades) when sports wagering was not legal in most jurisdictions. And to now be willing to drop it when the huge rise in income would just be coming to fruition due to the recent sports wagering laws.

But I don't know for certain other than what I posted of the actual tax regulation.

UPDATE:

A little extra digging - the sports wagering tax is from the 1950's. This particular excise tax they are trying to repeal is from 1986. May not be the same thing.

Exemption from the code is written into it. See below.



So accordingly to the above code the excise tax is exempt on coin operated devices installed before July 1st, 1980 so it sounds like yes there is an excise tax paid by casinos per wager on slots!

Additionally The language says it's exempt for any wager "paid in lieu of inserting coins etc) which implies Freeplay is exempt (credits inserted in lieu of coins)

Which may be why they are working to repeal.
Last edited by: darkoz on Apr 6, 2023
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billryan
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April 6th, 2023 at 2:58:59 PM permalink
The government collects a federal excise tax on every sports bet wagered. The issue is that the way the government taxes them doesn't account for free bets.
A new member joins and gets $100 in free bets. He wins $20 and never bets again. The casino lost $20 and has to pay a tax on the entire $100 It is a bookkeeping nightmare. I'm not sure, but I think this law is only from 2018 , give or take a year.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
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