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Wizard
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March 26th, 2022 at 5:04:44 PM permalink
Our next look at a slot that is sometimes +EV is Cash Falls.

In this game, coins stick on the reels for three spins. If a new coin is added to a reel, the counter for that reel resets to three. If at any time any reel fills with coins, the player wins all those coins. Much like with Cashman Bingo, the coins can have different values. If a machine is abandoned with enough coins on a reel with enough spins left on that reel, then may the vultures have it!

The big question is at what states is the game +EV? I hope to get some good comments on that.

For now, here is a short video of me playing the game, to illustrate the coin-dropping feature.


Direct: https://youtu.be/D5z0IR1dlOo.

I already posted the rule screens at WoO on my, for now, incomplete page on Cash Falls.

There is also a page on the game titled Cash Falls: It’s a Slot Machine Mostly About the Cash Balls at Know Your Slots. Unfortunately, he doesn't get specific on when the game is +EV.

The question for the poll is what are your thoughts on Cash Falls?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
100xOdds
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March 26th, 2022 at 9:36:06 PM permalink
is this the one with purple bubbles that rise from the bottom?
and if it connects with cash/progressive symbol, you win that $?

edit:
that's Cash Burst. (Vulture it like OM, except bubbles in col 4+5 are also good)

As for Cash Falls, I haven't seen AP's at my casinos check it. (And they do loops around the casino checking OM, Beatles, the Desert game, etc)
Last edited by: 100xOdds on Mar 27, 2022
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Dieter
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March 27th, 2022 at 5:29:54 AM permalink
The sticky coins blocking the columns until the column is full (or the counter clears) seem to block line hits and bonus triggers.
May the cards fall in your favor.
rsactuary
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March 27th, 2022 at 7:04:04 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

The sticky coins blocking the columns until the column is full (or the counter clears) seem to block line hits and bonus triggers.
link to original post



Indeed...this game is all about filling up columns. Line hits are few and far between. The variance must be enormous on this one.
Dieter
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March 27th, 2022 at 7:35:14 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

The variance must be enormous on this one.
link to original post



I imagine less than UX TDB, but I don't play that, either.
May the cards fall in your favor.
billryan
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March 27th, 2022 at 8:25:19 AM permalink
Can you connect horizontal columns or is it only vertical ones? Based on watching the video for a few minutes, nothing about the game captured my imagination. I can't put my finger on it but it seems recycled.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
100xOdds
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March 27th, 2022 at 10:58:40 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: rsactuary

The variance must be enormous on this one.
link to original post

I imagine less than UX TDB, but I don't play that, either.
link to original post

After 5+ years of ult x tdb, I finally got a Holy Grail last year.
Aces with kicker with 12x multiplier at 10cent.
There's a pic of it somewhere in this forum.

As for cash falls: col 1+2 have 4 spaces.
If 3 of them in either column are coins then you are sacrificing line hits to gamble for that 4th coin
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Wizard
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March 27th, 2022 at 3:29:18 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Can you connect horizontal columns or is it only vertical ones?
link to original post



Vertical only.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Dieter
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March 27th, 2022 at 4:02:43 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: billryan

Can you connect horizontal columns or is it only vertical ones?
link to original post



Vertical only.
link to original post



That seems inadvertently misleading.

The sticky coin symbols only seem to pay when a full column is collected.

The other symbols seem to act in a traditional "ways to win" line scheme, 4x4x6x6x8=4608.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Wizard
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March 27th, 2022 at 5:09:14 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

That seems inadvertently misleading.

The sticky coin symbols only seem to pay when a full column is collected.

The other symbols seem to act in a traditional "ways to win" line scheme, 4x4x6x6x8=4608.
link to original post



I'm getting confused what we're talking about now.

I claim the coins only pay if a vertical column is full, on initial spins. The other symbols pay on a "ways to win" basis. Do you disagree with any of that?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
billryan
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March 27th, 2022 at 5:17:49 PM permalink
What caught my interest were the top right columns. I think there are two horizontal rows that only have three spots and I saw them with two coins but never a third so I wasn't sure.
I'm not a fan of the music. I wouldn't call it creepy but something close to it.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
Dieter
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March 27th, 2022 at 5:22:10 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Dieter

That seems inadvertently misleading.

The sticky coin symbols only seem to pay when a full column is collected.

The other symbols seem to act in a traditional "ways to win" line scheme, 4x4x6x6x8=4608.
link to original post



I'm getting confused what we're talking about now.

I claim the coins only pay if a vertical column is full, on initial spins. The other symbols pay on a "ways to win" basis. Do you disagree with any of that?
link to original post



No disagreement. I was confused parsing the earlier brief reply, and realized that it could be misunderstood.
I attempted to clarify. Sorry for clarifying sub-optimally.
May the cards fall in your favor.
mcallister3200
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lilredroosterdarkozHunterhillALGonenickelmiracleSandybestdog
March 28th, 2022 at 3:13:22 AM permalink
Your cash falls when you try to play it. That’s the game.
lilredrooster
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March 28th, 2022 at 3:24:11 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Your cash falls when you try to play it. That’s the game.
link to original post



that was funny____________________________(~:/

.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
ALG
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March 30th, 2022 at 5:51:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Our next look at a slot that is sometimes +EV is Cash Falls.

I

The big question is at what states is the game +EV? I hope to get some good comments on that.


link to original post



Short answer is never.

This is the new AP killer style. I learned my lesson. It gives the false illusion of the popular game w/ coins on the reels that turn wild once collected. This game has so many coins and each reel is independent. Every time you get a new coin on the reel the chances to collect go back to 3. It is a continuous cycle. The AP looks at and sees the "collected coins" and thinks there is an advantage. In reality because there are so many coins and they are constant. If you play more than a couple spins you are just playing the normal return of the game like any ploppy.

I'm 23 - 3 this year. Two of my 3 losing sessions were from trying this terrible game. While "making the loops" this is the absolute last game I'll check and then only after several loops without any other plays.

If I was to play it I'd want 3 coins on reels 1 & 2 with 3 chances to collect the reel. Or only missing 1 coin on reels 3, 4 or 5 with 3 chances to collect the reel. I do 3 spins or less if I got the reel and quit.
Mukke
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March 30th, 2022 at 9:51:34 PM permalink
Quote: ALG

If I was to play it I'd want 3 coins on reels 1 & 2 with 3 chances to collect the reel. Or only missing 1 coin on reels 3, 4 or 5 with 3 chances to collect the reel. I do 3 spins or less if I got the reel and quit.
link to original post



This is the second time someone mentions something along the lines of "with 3 reels".

If you have just one reel in a useful position, why does it matter if there is 1 or 3 spins left?

Isn't 3 individual machines both with 1 spin left to collect something on the last reel equivalent in value (or even better in value) than a single machine with 3 attempts left to complete the final reel?

Or is the idea that with 3 pins left, even hitting blanks on the first or second spin, there is potential secondary value from loading up other reels, potentially creating another favorable position before the original setup is done/gone?
Wizard
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March 31st, 2022 at 6:35:49 PM permalink
I have studied some play of this game, tracking frequency of new coins, average coin values, and such.

After a lot of hand-waving math, which I won't get into, I think a decent starting strategy to this game would be to play if any reel is one coin away from being full.

This is just a starting point. If a reel has unusually low coins, but is still one away, it probably is not +EV. For average coins, it will be.

With reels 3 to 5, especially 5, a game may be positive if two consecutive positions only need coins. This is because the coins on the reels tend to be stacked.

Exceptions might be called for if jackpot coins are on the screen, especially the Major or Mega, depending on how many other coins are already on that reel.

Also keep in mind if two reels are slightly negative EV by themselves, then combined they are probably +EV.

Note that the spins remaining on coins is not mentioned.

That said, what do you think? I'm sure nobody will be in 100% agreement, but is this at least a decent starting point?

Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rsactuary
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March 31st, 2022 at 8:13:50 PM permalink
I think the probability of finding an empty game with 3 or even 2 spins on a reel with only one open spot is next to nil.
Mooseton
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Wizard
March 31st, 2022 at 11:31:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I have studied some play of this game, tracking frequency of new coins, average coin values, and such.

After a lot of hand-waving math, which I won't get into, I think a decent starting strategy to this game would be to play if any reel is one coin away from being full.

This is just a starting point. If a reel has unusually low coins, but is still one away, it probably is not +EV. For average coins, it will be.

With reels 3 to 5, especially 5, a game may be positive if two consecutive positions only need coins. This is because the coins on the reels tend to be stacked.

Exceptions might be called for if jackpot coins are on the screen, especially the Major or Mega, depending on how many other coins are already on that reel.

Also keep in mind if two reels are slightly negative EV by themselves, then combined they are probably +EV.

Note that the spins remaining on coins is not mentioned.

That said, what do you think? I'm sure nobody will be in 100% agreement, but is this at least a decent starting point?

Thank you.
link to original post



I studied hard and put my money on it. This game is done for. After failing, I walked home 28 miles. Not joking. The only obvious positive states are obvious, such as 3 reels one coin. But that happens next to never.
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
Wizard
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April 3rd, 2022 at 7:03:02 PM permalink
My new page on Cash Falls is up. I welcome all comments.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Mosca
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April 4th, 2022 at 8:02:41 AM permalink
I spent 20 more nutes watching someone play, then ran $100 through it when he was done. My observation is that the machine is rarely NOT in the state you describe. That's its hook. I got I up to about $285, and then it crashed and burned, and it was often one spot with three tries away from a pay.

$100 donated to observational knowledge.
A falling knife has no handle.
Wizard
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April 4th, 2022 at 12:08:42 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

My observation is that the machine is rarely NOT in the state you describe. That's its hook.
link to original post



Can you expand on this? Are you referring to my statement that, in general, it's playing if any one reel is one coin away from a Fall?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
darkoz
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April 4th, 2022 at 12:14:21 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Mosca

My observation is that the machine is rarely NOT in the state you describe. That's its hook.
link to original post



Can you expand on this? Are you referring to my statement that, in general, it's playing if any one reel is one coin away from a Fall?
link to original post



I also gave it a look.

Imo it's a coin flip AP. Meaning half the time you will make a small profit and the other half you will just lose money.

There are other vultures that when the machine is +ev it's guaranteed you will profit depending on its state.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
camapl
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April 4th, 2022 at 2:41:45 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My new page on Cash Falls is up. I welcome all comments.
link to original post



Thanks, Wiz, for your analysis, hand-waving aside. After some trial and error last year (Oct-Dec), I had come to roughly the same conclusions as you.

Unfortunately, I didn’t start keeping records till January, and I’ve mostly been eating for free and “collecting” FP this year, so I have no accurate results to report. If and when I do, I’d be happy to share.

FWIW, a more successful AP in my town avoids this game. He tends to be more conservative than me with his plays. What he lacks in math skills, he more than makes up for in experience. So, I’ve been waiting to see what you and the forum would come up with…
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Mukke
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April 4th, 2022 at 2:47:32 PM permalink
Quote: camapl

FWIW, a more successful AP in my town avoids this game. He tends to be more conservative than me with his plays. What he lacks in math skills, he more than makes up for in experience.
link to original post



High volatility, complex APs are better than low-volatility, simple APs, because of this exact thing. It reduces the competition. As long as you have the discipline, and bank roll to weather the ups and downs. I always find this a fun little aspect of the whole thing. In other words: careful what you wish for to hit your favorite spot, as more opportunities may just pull in more competition for a net negative change.
Mosca
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April 4th, 2022 at 5:55:29 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Mosca

My observation is that the machine is rarely NOT in the state you describe. That's its hook.
link to original post



Can you expand on this? Are you referring to my statement that, in general, it's playing if any one reel is one coin away from a Fall?
link to original post



I sat down at it with reel 1 one spot away from a fall, and it hit. But then another reel was one spot away, and it didn’t hit. By the time that one was out, another reel was one spot away. It just kind of keeps going like that, and you constantly think you should keep playing.

I’m not an AP, maybe I should have taken that hit and left. But then I would have passed on the others? IDK. it’s just an observation.
A falling knife has no handle.
darkoz
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April 4th, 2022 at 6:08:27 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Quote: Wizard

Quote: Mosca

My observation is that the machine is rarely NOT in the state you describe. That's its hook.
link to original post



Can you expand on this? Are you referring to my statement that, in general, it's playing if any one reel is one coin away from a Fall?
link to original post



I sat down at it with reel 1 one spot away from a fall, and it hit. But then another reel was one spot away, and it didn’t hit. By the time that one was out, another reel was one spot away. It just kind of keeps going like that, and you constantly think you should keep playing.

I’m not an AP, maybe I should have taken that hit and left. But then I would have passed on the others? IDK. it’s just an observation.
link to original post



That falls in line with my experience.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
100xOdds
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April 4th, 2022 at 6:34:25 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

There are other vultures that when the machine is +ev it's guaranteed you will profit depending on its state.
link to original post



hm...
:o
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
camapl
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April 5th, 2022 at 1:29:25 PM permalink
Quote: Mukke


High volatility, complex APs are better than low-volatility, simple APs, because of this exact thing. It reduces the competition. As long as you have the discipline, and bank roll to weather the ups and downs. I always find this a fun little aspect of the whole thing. In other words: careful what you wish for to hit your favorite spot, as more opportunities may just pull in more competition for a net negative change.
link to original post



Thanks for that, Mukke.

One thing I’m learning from it all is the importance of record keeping. Between VP strategies, promo schedules and requirements, and now vulturing strategies, I’m finding my diminishing memory is sorely taxed! lol I just need to streamline the process… Time is money!
It’s a dog eat dog world. …Or maybe it’s the other way around!
ALG
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April 6th, 2022 at 6:56:07 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz


There are other vultures that when the machine is +ev it's guaranteed you will profit depending on its state.
link to original post




My local has 25 Cash Falls games. If only I was smart enough to figure out how I would be guaranteed to profit on them.
100xOdds
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ALG
April 6th, 2022 at 8:33:44 PM permalink
Quote: ALG

Quote: darkoz


There are other vultures that when the machine is +ev it's guaranteed you will profit depending on its state.
link to original post


My local has 25 Cash Falls games. If only I was smart enough to figure out how I would be guaranteed to profit on them.
link to original post

i think he means there are other vulturable games you can play to get a better chance of profit
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
darkoz
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April 6th, 2022 at 8:54:19 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: ALG

Quote: darkoz


There are other vultures that when the machine is +ev it's guaranteed you will profit depending on its state.
link to original post


My local has 25 Cash Falls games. If only I was smart enough to figure out how I would be guaranteed to profit on them.
link to original post

i think he means there are other vulturable games you can play to get a better chance of profit
link to original post



Yes that's what I meant. Better vulturable games than cash falls.
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DogHand
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April 22nd, 2022 at 7:08:29 PM permalink


Didn't get any of these 😞

Dog Hand

P.S. Sorry about the rotated picture.
darkoz
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April 22nd, 2022 at 7:19:18 PM permalink
Quote: DogHand



Didn't get any of these 😞

Dog Hand

P.S. Sorry about the rotated picture.
link to original post



It's a negative EV wrapped up in an AP package!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
linksjunkie
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April 23rd, 2022 at 9:27:12 AM permalink
I tend to agree. Quite a few new “vulturable” that really aren’t.

The newest twist is the new E-bingo machines that recent began showing up at fraternal lodges (elks, moose, etc) in Ohio from Arrow Corp. These games are basically a electronic bag of BB’s / raffle tickets. However, 4-5 games on the machines appear vulturable with coins on top of rows that turn the row wild (such as Golden E). Or coins collected for free spins.

Tried to explain to a few friends that this was all a trick to get them to keep playing by chasing bonuses. They weren’t buying it until I pointed out the obvious. The built up bonus stays the same when you change the betting denomination. When I explained how vulnerable the game would be if you could build up the bonus at $0.50 a spin and then change to $5 a spin to collect the bonus they finally kind of believed me. 😂
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laurentst
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June 29th, 2022 at 8:56:09 AM permalink
I just played this game and is very funny. I just win 2k on it.
Good luck!
100xOdds
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August 3rd, 2022 at 4:36:17 AM permalink


Major, minor and a $1000 coin!
It's $50 per spin but I think the risk reward is worth it.
Got 2 more coins, each time when I was on my last spin.
So 9 spins total.
Never got it. Lost $450. :(

Was the risk/reward actually worth it?
Last edited by: 100xOdds on Aug 3, 2022
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
linksjunkie
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August 3rd, 2022 at 7:50:53 AM permalink
No. Doubtful

However, my experience with this game is minimal as I never really thought it was much of a play.
Son you ain’t paying attention I’m cutting you but you ain’t bleeding - Foghorn Leghorn
Cosmiccow
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camapl
August 20th, 2022 at 2:46:37 PM permalink
I think the best way to approach this game might be to add all the coins up that are 1 hit away and then divide by the bet amount like wizards strategy for cashman bingo instead of "play when 1 coin away" because most of the time the coins are barely worth anything so even when they hit its not worth.
itseddieT
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September 25th, 2022 at 10:02:43 PM permalink
Wizard, thanks for all your work. I got a question about this:

"Also keep in mind if two reels are slightly negative EV by themselves, then combined they are probably +EV."

What is meant by this? Are you saying if reel 1 and reel 2 only have 2 coins each, it may be +EV?
Mission146
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September 30th, 2022 at 6:30:26 AM permalink
Quote: itseddieT

Wizard, thanks for all your work. I got a question about this:

"Also keep in mind if two reels are slightly negative EV by themselves, then combined they are probably +EV."

What is meant by this? Are you saying if reel 1 and reel 2 only have 2 coins each, it may be +EV?
link to original post



I can't speak for Wizard, but one situation other than this might be if you had a one away with terrible numbers on R1 or R2, (probably not good by itself) but then the other reel was a two away. In going for the one away, and it might depend on the amounts of the other reel, you might cause it to become good on its own by adding a coin.

These things are a ton of trial and error, but one thing that I like about Cash Falls is that recreational players don't get killed as badly in -EV situations as they do on something like Hex because the variable state turnaround is much faster.

Has anyone ever hit Free Games on this? I'm mostly interested in whether Free Games symbols can, "Spin behind," coins, as in, they still count. I tend to think that they don't, and for those of you who might say, "They never count," I retort, "Icy Wilds (but not online versions)."
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
TheCapitalShip
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Mission146
September 30th, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Quote: itseddieT

Wizard, thanks for all your work. I got a question about this:

"Also keep in mind if two reels are slightly negative EV by themselves, then combined they are probably +EV."

What is meant by this? Are you saying if reel 1 and reel 2 only have 2 coins each, it may be +EV?
link to original post



I can't speak for Wizard, but one situation other than this might be if you had a one away with terrible numbers on R1 or R2, (probably not good by itself) but then the other reel was a two away. In going for the one away, and it might depend on the amounts of the other reel, you might cause it to become good on its own by adding a coin.

These things are a ton of trial and error, but one thing that I like about Cash Falls is that recreational players don't get killed as badly in -EV situations as they do on something like Hex because the variable state turnaround is much faster.

Has anyone ever hit Free Games on this? I'm mostly interested in whether Free Games symbols can, "Spin behind," coins, as in, they still count. I tend to think that they don't, and for those of you who might say, "They never count," I retort, "Icy Wilds (but not online versions)."
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Are you referring to the Bonus? I've hit the bonus twice on this machine. From what I played through the bonus symbols don't even appear behind the reels during the free games.

Basically in the bonus free games, it will award you free games based on the amount of bonus symbols that landed, during those spins, any coins that land will stay, if a reel gets all the coins, it spins a wheel that awards a multiplier on that reel. Total coin amount + any multipliers on the reels awarded at the end of the bonus.

Unfortunately I do not think you can extend the amount of spins.
Talldude90
Talldude90
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onenickelmiracle
January 14th, 2023 at 2:09:59 AM permalink
At my 88% or less local shop I find these unplayable. I mean I won't pass up a shot at a 100x major, but in general chasing the 1 aways is a losing proposition.
+1 to the fake AP comments (unless you are in a location with a denom at like 95% RTP on a played denom).
Sulfur5989
Sulfur5989
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January 14th, 2023 at 5:15:14 AM permalink
I personally had a lot of success chasing the smallest plays in thoses machines. What I mean is when I take the one away on a 4-8x the bet.
100xOdds
100xOdds
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January 20th, 2023 at 1:59:53 PM permalink


Double Major but $50 each spin and 3 coins missing.
Major is only slightly bigger than the Minor.
Would you go for it?

Results:
Lost $250. Only 1 more coin appeared and whiffed all 3 chances. :(
Could have been worse. Game could have strung me along and gave me 2 coins before whiffing for -$350
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Sulfur5989
Sulfur5989
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Mission146
January 21st, 2023 at 4:45:34 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds



Double Major but $50 each spin and 3 coins missing.
Major is only slightly bigger than the Minor.
Would you go for it?

Results:

Lost $250. Only 1 more coin appeared and whiffed all 3 chances. :(
Could have been worse. Game could have strung me along and gave me 2 coins before whiffing for -$350

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looks like a trap to me. Like i said i have made some good money on this game, but always 4-8x the bet at a time an quickly move on.
Mental
Mental
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April 13th, 2023 at 5:35:50 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Has anyone ever hit Free Games on this? I'm mostly interested in whether Free Games symbols can, "Spin behind," coins, as in, they still count. I tend to think that they don't, and for those of you who might say, "They never count," I retort, "Icy Wilds (but not online versions)."
link to original post

This is a picture of the end of a bonus round at $48 per spin. The Mini is 20x and the Minor is 50x same as the base game but there are no 500x Major or 10,000x Mega in the bonus round. The reason is that if these jackpots drop, you always get them. In the base game you need to convert them by filling the column.

Column #2 was filled on the last (10th) free spin even though it was blue after the third spin. I only got a 3x multiplier for column #2. That turned a total of x8 to x24. The x30.5 at the top is counting the totals and has only counted the first three columns so far.

I have captured a Mini in the bonus round before.
Gambling is a math contest where the score is tracked in dollars. Try not to get a negative score.
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