slot payback disclosure
The hold or payback amount with slots is treated very differently; casinos are not required to dislclose their payback / hold amount on slots.
I submit gaming authorities should consider adopting a regulation which requires casinos to post the hold / payback amount for their slots.
Assuming the gaming authorities balk, might it not be possible to have Nevada citizens follow the initiative and referendum process (not sure it's available in Nevada) or intiate comparable action to effect this change?
I believe that were it on the ballot most people would favor it.
Of course the casinos would oppose it, tooth and claw, for obvious reasons, so there would need to be a groundswell of public support.
Maybe an appropriate catch phrase for this would be "Stop the Steal."
Quote: MrVThe houes edge on all table games is known and can be readily determined so that players can make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to play.
The hold or payback amount with slots is treated very differently; casinos are not required to dislclose their payback / hold amount on slots.
I submit gaming authorities should consider adopting a regulation which requires casinos to post the hold / payback amount for their slots.
Assuming the gaming authorities balk, might it not be possible to have Nevada citizens follow the initiative and referendum process (not sure it's available in Nevada) or intiate comparable action to effect this change?
I believe that were it on the ballot most people would favor it.
Of course the casinos would oppose it, tooth and claw, for obvious reasons, so there would need to be a groundswell of public support.
Maybe an appropriate catch phrase for this would be "Stop the Steal."
I agree 100% with this perspective and this is rarely, but sometimes, the case.
1.) Online slot machine games (in some jurisdictions, anyway) disclose the RTP of the game. I don't know if that is a law, industry standard or choice.
2.) West Virginia VLT terminals (not at the actual casinos) either give a specific percentage or a range. The range will often be on something like Keno where certain features might rely on bet amount, and of course, number of picks CAN matter.
3.) I wouldn't say that the House Edge on Table Games is, 'Known,' in the same context. What I mean is it's not as if the casinos are printing the House Edge on the felt, so someone outside of the casinos still has to determine the House Edge.
That said, I personally believe that the House Edge for the Main Game (and side bets) should either be on the felt or a little sign that goes on the Table. As appropriate, it should say that optimal strategy is assumed.
Of course, the casinos would REALLY be against that. People would finally learn that the side bets ARE, "Where the money is," but that money mostly flows the casino's direction.
The thing is most residents don't gamble and I believe they'd vote for whatever will have the casinos contribute the most in taxes.
The casinos would claim this will hurt revenue and result in fewer taxes paid and fewer jobs. Who would finance the campaign to battle the disinformation?
25¢ Slot Machines
The Strip – 89.34%
Downtown – 93.91%
Boulder Strip – 95.77%
N. Las Vegas – 96.27%
$1 Slot Machines
The Strip – 92.34%
Downtown – 94.12%
Boulder Strip – 95.49%
N. Las Vegas – 95.62%
It goes on to say:
These numbers reflect the percentage of money returned to the players on each denomination of machine. All electronic machines including slots, video poker, and video keno are included in these numbers and the highest-paying returns are shown in bold print.
Keno may pull down the average, and maybe VP pulls up the average a bit. BUT if this is "weighted" based on the money in / money out, then I assume there are many more Slot machines than VP. There do seem to be a lot of video Keno games.
As expected, the payback percentages for The Strip are significantly lower than anywhere else ( ie any other area that is listed on that website for the Vegas area ).
So the information is out there ( sorto ), but I assume most people just don't care.
EDIT: I care, at least about seeing the Video Poker paytable !
Source:
https://www.americancasinoguide.com/info/slot-machine-payback-statistics#Nevada
Quote: MrVThe hold or payback amount with slots is treated very differently; casinos are not required to dislclose their payback / hold amount on slots.
It’s a nice idea..the casinos will NEVER agree to it because it would create competition among themselves to lower the hold percentage.
Casinos guard hold percentages on traditional slots like the army guards Fort Knox. They don’t want anyone knowing. Nor do I buy into any of these slot magazines or websites that rate various casino slots. My guess is these “best slots” ratings involve payoffs to the writers. There’s no “science” in their determination, IMO.
Go ask a slot manager what the hold is for a specific machine. He will either feign ignorance (real or not) at the question or give you a look of “I can’t tell you that”….whether they actually knew or not. I suspect there might only be a select one or two individuals who order the machines for the casino who would actually know….maybe a Vice President of slots.
Floor guys seem to be clueless…on purpose or not.
Quote: JohnnyQExcellent Summary information can be found at the American Casino Guide website ( I remember seeing it in the book that I purchased for many years ):
25¢ Slot Machines
The Strip – 89.34%
Downtown – 93.91%
Boulder Strip – 95.77%
N. Las Vegas – 96.27%
$1 Slot Machines
The Strip – 92.34%
Downtown – 94.12%
Boulder Strip – 95.49%
N. Las Vegas – 95.62%
It goes on to say:
These numbers reflect the percentage of money returned to the players on each denomination of machine. All electronic machines including slots, video poker, and video keno are included in these numbers and the highest-paying returns are shown in bold print.
Keno may pull down the average, and maybe VP pulls up the average a bit. BUT if this is "weighted" based on the money in / money out, then I assume there are many more Slot machines than VP. There do seem to be a lot of video Keno games.
As expected, the payback percentages for The Strip are significantly lower than anywhere else ( that is listed on that website ).
So the information is out there ( sorto ), but I assume most people just don't care.
Source:
https://www.americancasinoguide.com/info/slot-machine-payback-statistics#Nevada
I suspect these “averages” include video poker which would lower the posted percentages for traditional slots. (ie, Wheel of fortune, Buffalo, Lightning Link)
Quote: MrVI submit gaming authorities should consider adopting a regulation which requires casinos to post the hold / payback amount for their slots.
I agree 100%. I believe there is such a regulation in England, as a theoretical RTP will be somewhere on the machine, usually either a sticker or buried in the rule screens. However, I wouldn't count on this to happen in Nevada until I am in charge.
Quote: WizardI agree 100%. I believe there is such a regulation in England, as a theoretical RTP will be somewhere on the machine, usually either a sticker or buried in the rule screens. However, I wouldn't count on this to happen in Nevada until I am in charge.
uh didnt want to bump the thread so i guess ill ask you here... any reply to the "gaffed" machine thread? you said you filed a complaint... what is the process involved in that?
Quote: heatmapuh didnt want to bump the thread so i guess ill ask you here... any reply to the "gaffed" machine thread? you said you filed a complaint... what is the process involved in that?
Never even got the courtesy of a reply from Gaming on that one.
Quote: billryan
The thing is most residents don't gamble and I believe they'd vote for whatever will have the casinos contribute the most in taxes.
I've never seen a statistic for this but I have a feeling that at least half of the people of legal gambling age gamble at least once a year.
Quote: JohnnyQExcellent Summary information can be found at the American Casino Guide website ( I remember seeing it in the book that I purchased for many years ):
25¢ Slot Machines
The Strip – 89.34%
Downtown – 93.91%
Boulder Strip – 95.77%
N. Las Vegas – 96.27%
$1 Slot Machines
The Strip – 92.34%
Downtown – 94.12%
Boulder Strip – 95.49%
N. Las Vegas – 95.62%
I'll do you one better: this page has links to the monthly gaming reports (each month, there is a one-month, three-month, and 12-month report, broken down by geographical area , and within each area, broken down by types of table games (and for the sports books, by sport) and by denomination for machines (slots, VP, Video Keno, etc. combined - up through the end of 2019, they showed values for Megabucks machines separately).
so you're running for Gaming Commissioner? (please, please!)Quote: WizardI agree 100%. I believe there is such a regulation in England, as a theoretical RTP will be somewhere on the machine, usually either a sticker or buried in the rule screens. However, I wouldn't count on this to happen in Nevada until I am in charge.
Is that an elected office ? ? ? Regardless, the same thought occurred to me, HOW DO WE MAKE THIS HAPPEN ? ? ? ! ! !Quote: 100xOddsso you're running for Gaming Commissioner? (please, please!)
Quote: JohnnyQIs that an elected office ? ? ? Regardless, the same thought occurred to me, HOW DO WE MAKE THIS HAPPEN ? ? ? ! ! !
Thank you for the compliment. Unfortunately, that isn't an elected office. I think the governor appoints the Gaming Commissioner.
Quote: WizardThank you for the compliment. Unfortunately, that isn't an elected office. I think the governor appoints the Gaming Commissioner.
1. Run for Governor.
2. Draft and sign a document that appoints you Gaming commissioner.
3. Resign as Governor.
Actually, I’ll move to Nevada and you can make me the GC. My only act will be to make payouts for slots, keno, table games and side bets (return to player) clearly posted on the device, counter or table, as appropriate.
After that, I will continue to draw GC salary for the doing of nothing.
Roulette is to only have a maximum of two zeroes AND/OR symbols that behave as zeroes as relates the house edge of any bet.
All natural Blackjacks must pay 3:2 in the State of Nevada provided the Table Minimum is $2, or greater.
All Craps Tables must offer the player no less than 10x odds.
All games with a Max Aggregate payout MUST state the maximum bet a player can make and still be guaranteed the full return of the paytable.
Probably some more if I really thought about it.
Quote: Mission1461. Run for Governor.
2. Draft and sign a document that appoints you Gaming commissioner.
3. Resign as Governor.
Actually, I’ll move to Nevada and you can make me the GC. My only act will be to make payouts for slots, keno, table games and side bets (return to player) clearly posted on the device, counter or table, as appropriate.
After that, I will continue to draw GC salary for the doing of nothing.
Is that because you think putting slot payouts on the machines will cure all that is wrong in the casino industry?
What a strange hill to choose to die on.
Obviously, you will need to get mdawgs blessing as he alone could finance the whole operation.
Quote: billryanIs that because you think putting slot payouts on the machines will cure all that is wrong in the casino industry?
What a strange hill to choose to die on.
Obviously, you will need to get mdawgs blessing as he alone could finance the whole operation.
I believe no such thing. I'm simply satisfied that, 'Good,' games don't all go to crap and that players know the maximum theoretical return that they might be getting on all games. Of course, slots would have to differentiate return percentages by bet amount, as appropriate.
Anyway, I think Gaming Commissioner might be one of the few jobs that I'd be really good at. I'd actually have the players' best interests at heart in most of my doings.
Also, Resort Fees are ILLEGAL for any hotel that shares real property/address with a casino property. (I might not actually have the authority to do that, but they can figure that out in court.)
In the UK the House Edge has to be available somewhere, typically a leaflet/booklet explaining the game or games within the casino. The alternative is a sheet of paper near the cashier. (There used to be a similar strict rule for bingo, their house edge was called Par Fee, and it had to be displayed near the entrance; otherwise the house had to return all the money wagered to the winners. Many years ago one manager wasn't too pleased when I won the house and pointed at an error on the notice for that game!)Quote: Mission146...3.) I wouldn't say that the House Edge on Table Games is, 'Known,' in the same context. What I mean is it's not as if the casinos are printing the House Edge on the felt, so someone outside of the casinos still has to determine the House Edge....
Quote: charliepatrickIn the UK the House Edge has to be available somewhere, typically a leaflet/booklet explaining the game or games within the casino. The alternative is a sheet of paper near the cashier. (There used to be a similar strict rule for bingo, their house edge was called Par Fee, and it had to be displayed near the entrance; otherwise the house had to return all the money wagered to the winners. Many years ago one manager wasn't too pleased when I won the house and pointed at an error on the notice for that game!)
Unacceptable. Directly on the machine or the table. Awesome on the bingo play!
Quote: TDVegasMy understanding is there are a couple states in the USA that require slot machines to show RTP…but I’m not 100% certain.
I know the VLT parlors in WV at least have to show the return range for each game on the rules screen. I believe there are a few states where that, or similar, must be on the rules screen.
The only out that I would give casinos is that slots can be exempt from the requirement IF no slot machine on the floor has a return to player of under 94% at any possible bet amount.
HEY M146, then you'll fit right in ! ! !Quote: Mission146After that, I will continue to draw GC salary for the doing of nothing.
Well just in case anyone tries to make some sense out of this, let's have a row for "Multi-Denomination", which has the LARGEST win amount of any of the Slot Categories:Quote: ThatDonGuyI'll do you one better: this page has links to the monthly gaming reports (each month, there is a one-month, three-month, and 12-month report, broken down by geographical area , and within each area, broken down by types of table games (and for the sports books, by sport) and by denomination for machines (slots, VP, Video Keno, etc. combined - up through the end of 2019, they showed values for Megabucks machines separately).
And what the heck, lump Video Poker in with the SLOTS so the slots don't look as bad as they really are ? ?
Sorry I was referring to table play. It is impractical to have all the HEs for something like Craps on the table!Quote: Mission146Unacceptable. Directly on the machine or the table. Awesome on the bingo play!
Some operators have pamphlets at the table, especially if it's a relatively new game which players need to understand. Others have them at the entrance or have a specific book covering all games the chain does (even if that casino doesn't). (The slots have to have it on the machine albeit sometimes in the help pages). I believe the legal requirement is to have it displayed somewhere, and some put it on a noticeboard, sometimes difficult to find!
If in doubt ask the cashier, although often they'll need to ask the manager.
Quote: JohnnyQWell just in case anyone tries to make some sense out of this, let's have a row for "Multi-Denomination", which has the LARGEST win amount of any of the Slot Categories:Quote: ThatDonGuyI'll do you one better: this page has links to the monthly gaming reports (each month, there is a one-month, three-month, and 12-month report, broken down by geographical area , and within each area, broken down by types of table games (and for the sports books, by sport) and by denomination for machines (slots, VP, Video Keno, etc. combined - up through the end of 2019, they showed values for Megabucks machines separately).
And what the heck, lump Video Poker in with the SLOTS so the slots don't look as bad as they really are ? ?
(Picture removed)
Yeah, the multi-denomination games are becoming greater in number and would include many Video Poker machines. Other multi-denomination games include the ones where you get five or six of something and then it goes into the thing where it spins to try to get more of those---I can't think of a title off of the top of my head. Those often have .01, .02, .05, .10, and .25 denomination on them and can sometimes be found for higher denominations in HL rooms.*
*I think Video Poker REALLY helps the multi-denomination returns look better. There's not a chance in hell most of those slot games only hold 6% and change.
Anyway, that's what they are---they are machines upon which you can play more than one credit denomination.
Quote: charliepatrickSorry I was referring to table play. It is impractical to have all the HEs for something like Craps on the table!
Some operators have pamphlets at the table, especially if it's a relatively new game which players need to understand. Others have them at the entrance or have a specific book covering all games the chain does (even if that casino doesn't). (The slots have to have it on the machine albeit sometimes in the help pages). I believe the legal requirement is to have it displayed somewhere, and some put it on a noticeboard, sometimes difficult to find!
If in doubt ask the cashier, although often they'll need to ask the manager.
There will be a sign posted to either the left or the right of the Craps Table supervisor, at eye level, that lists all of the House Edges for all bets available on the Craps Table.
I am Gambling Commissioner, Mission146, and I have spoken.
So let it be written, so let it be done.
Quote: JohnnyQAnd what the heck, lump Video Poker in with the SLOTS so the slots don't look as bad as they really are ? ?
I’ve been questioning that as well. So when it shows the average return is 88%….it could very well be much lower for traditional type slots. Then you start approaching legally mandated MINIMUM returns, by law. California has no legal set minimum for slots. Conceivably the RTP could be 0%.
One begins to wonder if these ginormous, expensive to build and install slots being installed these days are being set to 80% RTP or lower.
Source:
https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=17779
Quote: Mission146
Other multi-denomination games include the ones where you get five or six of something and then it goes into the thing where it spins to try to get more of those---I can't think of a title off of the top of my head.
Hold and Spin feature
Quote: rsactuaryHold and Spin feature
Thanks! I was trying to think of the title of one of the games, but I have no reason that I can see to ever play them.
Quote: JohnnyQI think I have "heard" the minimum pay-out had to be 75 %, but I hadn't seen that in writing until now:
Source:
https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=17779
My guess is many of these new machines that are the size of a skyscraper have RTP’s set to the bare minimum. It’s not just the expense to design and build (which has to be substantial) and rent or buy the machine but also the floor footprint. My guess is these machines are being ordered at close to 75% RTP.
Yes, I think you are probably right.Quote: TDVegas[My guess is many of these new machines that are the size of a skyscraper have RTP’s set to the bare minimum. It’s not just the expense to design and build (which has to be substantial) and rent or buy the machine but also the floor footprint. My guess is these machines are being ordered at close to 75% RTP.
I play a lot of Video Poker, so I like to play a little bit of Slots just to enhance my comp offers. At least that is my theory. So I usually play a plain jane-ish looking $1 machine.
Quote: JohnnyQYes, I think you are probably right.Quote: TDVegas[My guess is many of these new machines that are the size of a skyscraper have RTP’s set to the bare minimum. It’s not just the expense to design and build (which has to be substantial) and rent or buy the machine but also the floor footprint. My guess is these machines are being ordered at close to 75% RTP.
I play a lot of Video Poker, so I like to play a little bit of Slots just to enhance my comp offers. At least that is my theory. So I usually play a plain jane-ish looking $1 machine.
The old school machines likely have better return percentages. They are likely owned, not rented by the casino…therefore the casino doesn’t have to justify the large “take”.
I've been saying that for years. It's one of the items on my List of Suggested Casino Reforms.Quote: MrVI submit gaming authorities should consider adopting a regulation which requires casinos to post the hold / payback amount for their slots.
The “traditional” slots will likely have a far lower RTP than the printed numbers.
Quote: MichaelBluejayI've been saying that for years. It's one of the items on my List of Suggested Casino Reforms.
It’s a VERY simple explanation. The Vegas casinos are afraid of what might happen. Competition for player dollars by advertising their RTP is 90% while their competition down the road is 87%.
Billboards plastered all over town.
Great for players.
Gaming control nor Governor Sisolak would EVER push for such a disclosure…even though this idea of business where competition and market dictates “pricing” is the backbone of capitalism in a free democracy.
I suppose it could be part of their tribal compact but I suspect not.
Point being, I suspect they've some of the tightest slots in the country, especially when there's no nearby competition.
Normally when asked tribal employees will not tell me what their hold / pay out is, typically pleading ignorance, but one older guy at Chinook Winds in Lincoln City told me it was either 84 or 86 percent in the high limit room.
Ouch.
Quote: MrVAs for tribal casinos, are exempt from any requirements which a state might have put in place that they must meet a minimum RTP?
I suppose it could be part of their tribal compact but I suspect not.
Point being, I suspect they've some of the tightest slots in the country, especially when there's no nearby competition.
Normally when asked tribal employees will not tell me what their hold / pay out is, typically pleading ignorance, but one older guy at Chinook Winds in Lincoln City told me it was either 84 or 86 percent in the high limit room.
Ouch.
California tribal casinos…which I believe is all California casinos, there is no mandated RTP percentage. They could set them to 0% return theoretically. Obviously that could never be done, but there is nothing that prevents them from setting the RTP to anything they want. I guess the only thing that could prevent them would be if the slot manufacturers would not supply EPROM chips they deem to be “not in their interest”.
There is usually a push and pull between slot manufacturers and casinos on RTP. The slot makers will tell the casinos if the RTP is too low…it will destroy the player fun experience and he will eventually no longer play that slot machine. The casino, of course, wants to maximize their take.
84-86 for high limit seems pretty bad but I’m guessing Vegas is likely in the same ballpark. I’m guessing the discussions of slots being 88-94% might be a bunch of bull for traditional slots.
In any event, I do wonder if ANY of these floor people actually know. Even a tech…would he know the EPROM chip he’s replacing is 88% and changing it to 84%…?
Quote: MrVAs for tribal casinos, are exempt from any requirements which a state might have put in place that they must meet a minimum RTP?
I suppose it could be part of their tribal compact but I suspect not.
Point being, I suspect they've some of the tightest slots in the country, especially when there's no nearby competition.
Normally when asked tribal employees will not tell me what their hold / pay out is, typically pleading ignorance, but one older guy at Chinook Winds in Lincoln City told me it was either 84 or 86 percent in the high limit room.
Ouch.
Generally, there is a minimum return for Tribal Casinos referenced in the compact with a state, but perhaps not always.
They may or may not be the tightest settings a manufacturer has for a particular title. I’d assume they’re set the same as your average Vegas Strip casino.
Easy Vegas to the rescue again.Quote: Mission146Also, for any state that has a minimum return mandated in the compact, it is no worse than Nevada’s 75% and most are more than that. 80% is very common.
Quote: MichaelBluejayEasy Vegas to the rescue again.
Good page. I think I have one or two Tribal casino gaps that I can fill in from my listings pages on another LCB-owned site.
What I’ll sometimes do is dig into an individual compact, which doesn’t necessarily reflect a state minimum (if the state has no set minimum), but is useful to cite with an asterisk.
I’ll take a look later today and post again with any sources, as appropriate.
GREAT Page. I didn't know what my state's minimum was. And now I do. THANKS. I don't play slots very often, but I think this is interesting information.Quote: Mission146Good page.Quote: MichaelBluejayEasy Vegas to the rescue again.
Quote: JohnnyQGREAT Page. I didn't know what my state's minimum was. And now I do. THANKS. I don't play slots very often, but I think this is interesting information.Quote: Mission146Good page.Quote: MichaelBluejayEasy Vegas to the rescue again.
GREAT page, excuse me.
Quote: Mission1461. Run for Governor.
2. Draft and sign a document that appoints you Gaming commissioner.
3. Resign as Governor.
Actually, I’ll move to Nevada and you can make me the GC. My only act will be to make payouts for slots, keno, table games and side bets (return to player) clearly posted on the device, counter or table, as appropriate.
After that, I will continue to draw GC salary for the doing of nothing.
It is a horrible job and doesn't pay great. A friend of mine was commissioner about 10 years ago. He resigned after about two years because the money was too low and the work sucked. Generally they will hire attorneys in that position. The good thing is once you hold that position you are considered golden in the Gaming community. People will pay you 10 times what you were making if you go work for them. My friend that was commissioner now runs a major casino company.
I have been before the commission many times. It is so formal, it reminds me of how the U.S. Senate is run. "Good morning Commissioner XXX, madam secretary, and to all of you esteemed members of the commission. I am XXX representing YYY in this mater and would like for you and your esteemed collegues to consider my proposal." Everything is on the record and a transcript of all of the hearing is made available. Way too formal for what they are actually doing/
Quote: DRichIt is a horrible job and doesn't pay great. A friend of mine was commissioner about 10 years ago. He resigned after about two years because the money was too low and the work sucked. Generally they will hire attorneys in that position. The good thing is once you hold that position you are considered golden in the Gaming community. People will pay you 10 times what you were making if you go work for them. My friend that was commissioner now runs a major casino company.
I have been before the commission many times. It is so formal, it reminds me of how the U.S. Senate is run. "Good morning Commissioner XXX, madam secretary, and to all of you esteemed members of the commission. I am XXX representing YYY in this mater and would like for you and your esteemed collegues to consider my proposal." Everything is on the record and a transcript of all of the hearing is made available. Way too formal for what they are actually doing/
I would like this appointment, please! I wonder if I can make a greater amount of money (than commissioner salary) doing seminars and the like rather than working directly for the casinos?
You won't have to worry about formality with me. I'll get rid of all of that BS. Drives me crazy. They do the same thing in just about any, 'Formal,' organization that I have seen---even those that are of even less consequence.
Quote: Mission146I would like this appointment, please! I wonder if I can make a greater amount of money (than commissioner salary) doing seminars and the like rather than working directly for the casinos?
You won't have to worry about formality with me. I'll get rid of all of that BS. Drives me crazy. They do the same thing in just about any, 'Formal,' organization that I have seen---even those that are of even less consequence.
Another bad this is that nobody that works for the Gaming Control is allowed to gamble in Nevada.
