rxwine
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ChumpChange
September 1st, 2020 at 11:25:47 PM permalink
Normally, on a slot machine bonus round, from a single bet, the machine will give so many free spins. If at the end, the total win is at or above $1200 the bonus round generates the customary W2.

What if instead, a bonus round required individual bets for each spin. And while you could still win a the same large amount at the end, no single win would be larger than $1199.

A machine starting a bonus round would message the player that the next 10 bets would be at increased payback. If the player walked away, anyone could benefit from the enhanced bets if they played them off instead.

See, a player could walk away with a multi-thousands on a really good round of bonuses., yet each bet and win is under the acceptable limit and requires some amount of coin-in each time.
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rxwine
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September 1st, 2020 at 11:27:58 PM permalink
See normally, a bonus round just starts and finishes from a single bet. Um, this would be a loophole, I guess, How would the IRS react?
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rxwine
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September 1st, 2020 at 11:31:26 PM permalink
On a video poker machine, you might get a message that the next 10 hands you play will be 10x pay per bet.
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ChumpChange
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September 2nd, 2020 at 12:26:50 AM permalink
Since the standard deduction is $12K or $24K, it would be better if the laws were changed to only give out a W2-G on say $10K instead of $1.2K. Our tax cutter-in-chief only cares about billionaires and tries to cut everyone else off though.
darkoz
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September 2nd, 2020 at 5:55:56 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Normally, on a slot machine bonus round, from a single bet, the machine will give so many free spins. If at the end, the total win is at or above $1200 the bonus round generates the customary W2.

What if instead, a bonus round required individual bets for each spin. And while you could still win a the same large amount at the end, no single win would be larger than $1199.

A machine starting a bonus round would message the player that the next 10 bets would be at increased payback. If the player walked away, anyone could benefit from the enhanced bets if they played them off instead.

See, a player could walk away with a multi-thousands on a really good round of bonuses., yet each bet and win is under the acceptable limit and requires some amount of coin-in each time.



Your idea has merit because it is already done (best way to prove merit of an idea imo)

Japanese law prohibits any single spin from winning more than 15 credits. Pachinko and Pachislo machines have bonus rounds designed to get around the law (a recognized and legal loophole)

When you trigger the bonus you get a set amount of BIG CHANCE spins (direct translation here in the US we would probably call them lucky jackpot spins)

You have to pay the max for each spin but literally nearly every spin is s winner of ten or fifteen credits (so really 7 or 12 credits minus the cost of spin).

These big chance rounds can be quite lucrative. I own a Pachislo machine and they have emptied out my hopper on occasion.

While someone could walk away and leave remaining spins for vultures they have loud exciting music playing the whole time to cue the player that they are in the middle of s bonus round. Pretty certain there is no opportunity to vulture there
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rsactuary
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September 2nd, 2020 at 7:11:36 AM permalink
Better yet, raise the limit at which a W2-G is written to $5000 or $10000 and index to inflation.
darkoz
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September 2nd, 2020 at 7:49:01 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Better yet, raise the limit at which a W2-G is written to $5000 or $10000 and index to inflation.



Better yes.

But would have to convince IRS and any other governing body to make changes to system.

Remember these are not people who understand gambling and just a year or two ago floated LOWERING W2G requirements to $600.

The bonus round situation would be a legal loophole that would not require any government red tape.

BTW, it's done to some extent here in the states already with variable state machines.

Bonus rounds just being paid separate spins
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rxwine
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September 2nd, 2020 at 9:08:49 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Better yes.

But would have to convince IRS and any other governing body to make changes to system.

Remember these are not people who understand gambling and just a year or two ago floated LOWERING W2G requirements to $600.

The bonus round situation would be a legal loophole that would not require any government red tape.

BTW, it's done to some extent here in the states already with variable state machines.

Bonus rounds just being paid separate spins



Funny, when I remembered today that I posted this last night, I expected this morning that when I looked at it, someone would have found whatever law prevented such a machine.

Raising the limit has been a long sought idea -- but you can die a couple billion times holding your breath for that to happen.
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rsactuary
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September 2nd, 2020 at 9:28:04 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Better yes.

But would have to convince IRS and any other governing body to make changes to system.

Remember these are not people who understand gambling and just a year or two ago floated LOWERING W2G requirements to $600.

The bonus round situation would be a legal loophole that would not require any government red tape.

BTW, it's done to some extent here in the states already with variable state machines.

Bonus rounds just being paid separate spins



I essentially agree with what you've said here, but just a small clarification... the IRS is just following the tax laws. They don't really have a say in making changes. It's up to the legislators to do that.
darkoz
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September 2nd, 2020 at 9:35:36 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Funny, when I remembered today that I posted this last night, I expected this morning that when I looked at it, someone would have found whatever law prevented such a machine.

Raising the limit has been a long sought idea -- but you can die a couple billion times holding your breath for that to happen.



I believe NYS had a law for years that forbade any live person (dealers included) from touching any gambling playable pieces.

The idea when written (prior to today's mechanical Marvel's) was to prevent legalized gambling by preventing any dealers from spinning a roulette ball or players rolling dice or dealers handing out cards.

When the racinos opened they got around the law through E-games.

So there is some historical precedent for casinos using legal loopholes to get the desired end result
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Mission146
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September 2nd, 2020 at 9:38:58 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Normally, on a slot machine bonus round, from a single bet, the machine will give so many free spins. If at the end, the total win is at or above $1200 the bonus round generates the customary W2.

What if instead, a bonus round required individual bets for each spin. And while you could still win a the same large amount at the end, no single win would be larger than $1199.

A machine starting a bonus round would message the player that the next 10 bets would be at increased payback. If the player walked away, anyone could benefit from the enhanced bets if they played them off instead.

See, a player could walk away with a multi-thousands on a really good round of bonuses., yet each bet and win is under the acceptable limit and requires some amount of coin-in each time.



It's a very good idea and there are already a few games (even in USA) that do this. The two examples that come to mind are Super Bonus Keno in the WV parlors where you must make your base bet for each play, but all wins are either doubled or quadrupled. (Forget which)

Another example is a game on some Spielo machines called Triple Ace Poker. In that game, your video poker hands are multiplied...but on at least some variations, you still pay for each of the individual games.

I also agree with those who have said the W2G threshold should be raised. I'd be fine with any increase, (obviously better than none) but 5k seems reasonable enough. It seems like some higher denomination/higher bet games are structured in such a way as to generally avoid W2G...which somewhat defeats the (I assume) purpose of playing such a game.

There may also be a few slot games that do this, but I can't think of any off of the top of my head.
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DRich
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:21:27 AM permalink
Assuming you all are not cheating on your taxes and reporting every dollar won, why raise the W2G amount?
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rxwine
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:26:46 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Assuming you all are not cheating on your taxes and reporting every dollar won, why raise the W2G amount?



Paperwork reduction act.
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rxwine
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:35:18 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Assuming you all are not cheating on your taxes and reporting every dollar won, why raise the W2G amount?



Btw, Iíve always suspected the irs makes more money because too few people keep accurate logs.

Or even bother to keep logs.
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DRich
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:38:07 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Btw, Iíve always suspected the irs makes more money because too few people keep accurate logs.

Or even bother to keep logs.



I think every casino should go to an account based wagering system, That way at the end of the year every patron could get a statement showing every single win and loss and the casino could report it to the IRS. That way every player would be taxed appropriately. that would allow them to get rid of W2G's.
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rsactuary
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:39:56 AM permalink
I would like to know exactly how much revenue comes in from gambling winnings. I'd rather they set a really high limit, like $20K, with a mandatory tax contribution on amounts over that, with no ability to offset losses. Set the 20K and the percentage to keep tax revenues approximately the same.
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:40:55 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Assuming you all are not cheating on your taxes and reporting every dollar won, why raise the W2G amount?



You're free to assume anything you like.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:42:07 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I think every casino should go to an account based wagering system, That way at the end of the year every patron could get a statement showing every single win and loss and the casino could report it to the IRS. That way every player would be taxed appropriately. that would allow them to get rid of W2G's.



I'm all for this as long as net losses can be deducted from the tax liability and not only used to offset wins. That wouldn't really help AP's much, but would be great for casual gamblers...or losing not-so-casual gamblers, I guess.
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darkoz
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September 2nd, 2020 at 11:45:36 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I think every casino should go to an account based wagering system, That way at the end of the year every patron could get a statement showing every single win and loss and the casino could report it to the IRS. That way every player would be taxed appropriately. that would allow them to get rid of W2G's.



That would require eliminating any gambling without a players card.

Plus savvy players can cheat the system.

Even at table games ratholing is a known method
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DRich
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September 2nd, 2020 at 12:02:08 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

That would require eliminating any gambling without a players card.

Plus savvy players can cheat the system.

Even at table games ratholing is a known method



Yes, many jurisdictions require the use of a card and they can be completely cashless.. The system works almost perfectly for machine play but table games do cause issues. That may be why so many foreign casinos are getting rid of live tables and adding the stadium style games.
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darkoz
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September 2nd, 2020 at 12:26:08 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Yes, many jurisdictions require the use of a card and they can be completely cashless.. The system works almost perfectly for machine play but table games do cause issues. That may be why so many foreign casinos are getting rid of live tables and adding the stadium style games.



So how do Players add and cash out?

They have to link their Players card account to their cc or bank account?
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DRich
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September 2nd, 2020 at 12:30:33 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

So how do Players add and cash out?

They have to link their Players card account to their cc or bank account?



Yes, but most allow a cash transaction at the cash as long as ID is presented.
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September 2nd, 2020 at 2:22:36 PM permalink
In Mexico you load money onto the card through the cage or an attendant.
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Mission146
September 2nd, 2020 at 4:16:39 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Normally, on a slot machine bonus round, from a single bet, the machine will give so many free spins. If at the end, the total win is at or above $1200 the bonus round generates the customary W2.

What if instead, a bonus round required individual bets for each spin. And while you could still win a the same large amount at the end, no single win would be larger than $1199.

A machine starting a bonus round would message the player that the next 10 bets would be at increased payback. If the player walked away, anyone could benefit from the enhanced bets if they played them off instead.

See, a player could walk away with a multi-thousands on a really good round of bonuses., yet each bet and win is under the acceptable limit and requires some amount of coin-in each time.



In theory, a good idea. I'm sure vultures would like it. However, I think recreational players wouldn't understand it and just want to get paid up front.

I hate to insult anybody, but I think anybody smart enough to consider the tax ramifications of their slot play is probably not playing slots to begin with, unless for AP purposes.

It also may be trying to evade income taxes too egregiously. Maybe a bit off point, but once when I hit a $1250 win in video poker I asked if they could lower my win to $1199 and was firmly told "no."

What does the forum think of this idea -- If the player hits any win of $1200 or over, he is given the option to get $1199 in direct credits and the rest in a free play voucher. Seems a win/win for the player (who takes the standard deduction) and the casino. Uncle Sam is a big loser though.
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UP84
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September 2nd, 2020 at 5:29:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

What does the forum think of this idea -- If the player hits any win of $1200 or over, he is given the option to get $1199 in direct credits and the rest in a free play voucher. Seems a win/win for the player (who takes the standard deduction) and the casino. Uncle Sam is a big loser though.

Nice try! But it won't work. The IRS would view a voucher earned in the context, i.e. earned as part of the payout, as "winnings" under the reporting requirement. The casino would get in trouble if Uncle Sam found out.
rxwine
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September 2nd, 2020 at 7:44:56 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

In theory, a good idea. I'm sure vultures would like it. However, I think recreational players wouldn't understand it and just want to get paid up front.



I'd wager if you went into casino, and randomly informed slot players, "See these machines here? No matter how much you win all evening, you'll never have to get a W2, whereas, these machines here, have the exact same odds of winning just as much, but you may get a w2. Which would you rather play?

You don't think that would be popular?
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September 2nd, 2020 at 7:59:51 PM permalink
Quote: UP84

Nice try! But it won't work. The IRS would view a voucher earned in the context, i.e. earned as part of the payout, as "winnings" under the reporting requirement. The casino would get in trouble if Uncle Sam found out.



In table game tournaments, the prizes are often given in free play (the use until you lose kind) chips. For example, say the win was $100,000. If it was direct cash, it would necessitate a CTR. However, let's say it is given in free play chips. The player circulates them through a table game and has $95,000 in cashable chips. He cashes less than $10,000 per day. No CTR and no law is broken.

If this can occur, why not my free play idea?
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September 2nd, 2020 at 8:02:30 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I'd wager if you went into casino, and randomly informed slot players, "See these machines here? No matter how much you win all evening, you'll never have to get a W2, whereas, these machines here, have the exact same odds of winning just as much, but you may get a w2. Which would you rather play?

You don't think that would be popular?



Exactly my point.
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 8:12:55 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Exactly my point.



It would be illegal for the casino or manufacturer. It would be considered "structuring" and that is against the law. Any attempt to willfully try to get around the reporting requirements for CTR's is illegal.
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darkoz
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September 3rd, 2020 at 8:19:50 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

It would be illegal for the casino or manufacturer. It would be considered "structuring" and that is against the law. Any attempt to willfully try to get around the reporting requirements for CTR's is illegal.



DRich, if that is the case then every casino that has cash redemption machines is illegally structuring.

You think people who cash out thousands at redemption machines are being tracked and having CTR's filed on them?
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 8:24:31 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

DRich, if that is the case then every casino that has cash redemption machines is illegally structuring.

You think people who cash out thousands at redemption machines are being tracked and having CTR's filed on them?



You are incorrect. Those cash mahines are not there to willfully circumvent CTR's. They are there for the convenience of patrons to cash out. If you are using it to circumvent a CTR, you are probably breaking the law but the casino isn't.
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 8:29:02 AM permalink
Darkoz, by the way if you are using a players card when playing the TITO can be tracked back to you when it is cashed. If one was trying to disguise it, they would put the TITO in another slot machine without players card inserted and then cash out.

My company files CTR's for TITO's redeemed at the kiosk if the aggregate is over $10k.
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darkoz
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September 3rd, 2020 at 9:01:17 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

You are incorrect. Those cash mahines are not there to willfully circumvent CTR's. They are there for the convenience of patrons to cash out. If you are using it to circumvent a CTR, you are probably breaking the law but the casino isn't.



I am unaware of any redemption machine that cashes out more than $3000 at a time and certainly not $10,000 at a time

Any Players not using a player card is basically forced to cash out separate and anonymous multiple transactions if they are cashing out $10,000 or more.

I don't see how the casinos cannot be held implicitly involved in this as they don't require use of a Players card (notwithstanding a few jurisdictionall exceptions) for tracking these situations and force all players to cash out way under the CTR reporting requirements.
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 9:59:50 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I am unaware of any redemption machine that cashes out more than $3000 at a time and certainly not $10,000 at a time

Any Players not using a player card is basically forced to cash out separate and anonymous multiple transactions if they are cashing out $10,000 or more.

I don't see how the casinos cannot be held implicitly involved in this as they don't require use of a Players card (notwithstanding a few jurisdictionall exceptions) for tracking these situations and force all players to cash out way under the CTR reporting requirements.



Very few casinos allow more than $3000 at the kiosk. Casinos can run a report that totals up all of your cashouts for the day if you are using your player card. Usually it is run the next morning and if it totals over $10k they file a CTR. Some systems may do it in real time but the ones I have been involved with weren't that sophisticated.
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darkoz
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September 3rd, 2020 at 10:22:32 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Very few casinos allow more than $3000 at the kiosk. Casinos can run a report that totals up all of your cashouts for the day if you are using your player card. Usually it is run the next morning and if it totals over $10k they file a CTR. Some systems may do it in real time but the ones I have been involved with weren't that sophisticated.



Who is responsible for filing CTR's?

If a customer cashes out $7,000 at the cashier and then returns a few hours later with another$7,000 is the customer required to mention his previous transaction or ask the cashier to file a CTR on their account?

I'm pretty certain this is a requirement of the casinos.

Furthermore if a casino failed to file a CTR for any reason the player would not be charged with a crime but the casino would be held responsible, correct?

Is there any legal requirement that a customer who has had multiple redemption machine transactions totalling over $10,000 go to the cashier and present their slips and request a CTR?

So if the casino has facilitated any means of avoiding their CTR responsibility, regardless of if it's for customers ease of use, such as redemption machines, any crime involved would be with the casino, not any player.
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 10:40:27 AM permalink
The customer has no responsibility to mention to the casino their cashout amount.

You need to understand the casino did not put the kiosk there for the purpose of avoiding cTR's. It has to be a willful attempt to avoid a CTR.

If you cash out $8000 at the cage and then come back to cash out $4000 more and the clerk asks for your ID, if you take $2000 back and ask to only cash out $2000 you are committing a crime by trying to avoid a CTR. The casino will file a Suspicious Activity Report on you.

Casinos have been fined millions of dollars for not properly filing CTR's.

Whether you want to believe it or not, I know quite a bit about this topic. I have taught courses to casinos on it,
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darkoz
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September 3rd, 2020 at 10:47:10 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

The customer has no responsibility to mention to the casino their cashout amount.
,



This clearly makes the onus on the casino in your own words.

You mentioned casinos have fined millions for failure to file CTR and I believe you.

How many casino patrons have been prosecuted to your knowledge?
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 3:54:02 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz



How many casino patrons have been prosecuted to your knowledge?



Many have been prosecuted for money laundering as that is the whole purpose of CTR's. Remember, CTR's are not for the IRS. They are for the Department of Treasury.
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ChumpChange
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September 3rd, 2020 at 6:15:23 PM permalink
But if you take a check for your over $10K in chips, or have it direct deposited into your checking account, there'd be no CTR because there's no cash.
I don't know what technologically savvy people do these days. Does Venmo or some such allow $25K deposits?
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DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 6:23:10 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

But if you take a check for your over $10K in chips, or have it direct deposited into your checking account, there'd be no CTR because there's no cash.



Very good point.
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darkoz
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September 3rd, 2020 at 6:42:52 PM permalink
DRich,

Looking into it is it correct that

1) it is a crime for a casino or it's employees to assist any patron with structuring?

2) because of attempts to circumvent CTR through structuring casinos are advised or required to keep track of cash transactions over $3000?

3) redemption machines don't allow more than $3000 to be redeemed at once?

That would seem to me that an argument can be made casinos are assisting patrons to structure in such a way that they the casinos are not legally bound to report.
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ChumpChange
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September 3rd, 2020 at 7:07:08 PM permalink
Yeah, so just bring $2500 to the cage three times during their casino day (6am - 6am, or whatever), then come back after 6 am if you've got more. Might wanna make 1 cage trip per shift.
DRich
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September 3rd, 2020 at 7:42:16 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Yeah, so just bring $2500 to the cage three times during their casino day (6am - 6am, or whatever), then come back after 6 am if you've got more. Might wanna make 1 cage trip per shift.



In theory the cages are supposed to keep track of a person cashing out large amounts even across shifts. In practicality it is very hard.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11498
September 3rd, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

DRich,

Looking into it is it correct that

1) it is a crime for a casino or it's employees to assist any patron with structuring?

2) because of attempts to circumvent CTR through structuring casinos are advised or required to keep track of cash transactions over $3000?

3) redemption machines don't allow more than $3000 to be redeemed at once?

That would seem to me that an argument can be made casinos are assisting patrons to structure in such a way that they the casinos are not legally bound to report.



1) definitely if they are willfully helping you.

2) yes

3) most but it is not a rule

It has to be a willful attempt to help you avoid the CTR.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
itsmejeff
itsmejeff
Joined: Aug 6, 2012
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 58
September 10th, 2020 at 6:10:16 PM permalink
Old versions of Bally's "Diamonds and Devils" 3-reel slot did this.
https://youtu.be/iSb1eGt5ekk?t=247
When player got the bonus, the game awarded 30 credits, which were then deducted as next 10 spins at were played with bonus 3x pays. I think the newer versions of the game just award a normal bonus game with auto-play.
JoeTheDragon
JoeTheDragon
Joined: Mar 6, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 60
September 14th, 2020 at 8:49:49 AM permalink
Quote: itsmejeff

Old versions of Bally's "Diamonds and Devils" 3-reel slot did this.
https://youtu.be/iSb1eGt5ekk?t=247
When player got the bonus, the game awarded 30 credits, which were then deducted as next 10 spins at were played with bonus 3x pays. I think the newer versions of the game just award a normal bonus game with auto-play.


The IL bar slots work like that as well.

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