New slot hustle against players
Well I have now seen at least 2 casinos that do this. I dont know if its new but here is how it works
When cashing out your voucher at an automated redemption machine you receive your money ONLY as hard paper currency
Any change up to 99 cents is given to you as a slot playable voucher
I suppose if you want to wait on line at the cashier to get your pennies you can
Or throw it back into the slots for a ridiculous few penny quick spin
Most people will probably just shrug and throw it away.
And wallah hundreds of thousands of dollars kept by the casino a few pennies at a time totally legal
Welcome to the 21st century
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Since its free and convenient, I normally park at Casino Royal when I go to the strip. It's kinda a pain in the ass driving in from the strip with all the foot Trafic blocking your path to the alleyway between CR and the Venitian while avoiding hitting one of the vagrants that sit there, but it beats the alternatives(and I never forget where I parked).
Today I found a 15 cent CR slot ticket floating around outside on my way to Harrahs. I was going to toss it back on the ground but I thought I would just give it to the vagrants that hang outside in the alleyway(watch them fight over it (-;).
As I peeked around the corner in the alleyway to find someone to give it to, I noticed Metro had a van there and they were arresting a few guys. I noticed a new no loitering sign posted on the wall where they were being detained and normally sit.
The ticket is still in my pocket. Dont tell Mission how much it is, I'll put it face down and see if he will fish it out of a urinal next time he's in Vegas. (-;
It is "voila'' from the French and no I have no idea how to type that accent mark on a computer. It means 'see there' 'demonstrated' 'proven' 'made apparent'.Quote: darkozAnd wallah hundreds of thousands of dollars kept by the casino a few pennies at a time totally legal
Casinos always 'nick' bettors in some manner.
Roulette "should' pay 5.26 when you have bet 5.00 but they only give you the 5.00.
Making you feel like a cheapskate and making you walk to the cage to get your pennies is just a way they can get you to 'donate' money they would otherwise have to keep in their machines.
Some banks do this too. They round off the pennies to the dollar amount.
Quote: FleaStiffIt is "voila'' from the French and no I have no idea how to type that accent mark on a computer. It means 'see there' 'demonstrated' 'proven' 'made apparent'.
Casinos always 'nick' bettors in some manner.
Roulette "should' pay 5.26 when you have bet 5.00 but they only give you the 5.00.
Making you feel like a cheapskate and making you walk to the cage to get your pennies is just a way they can get you to 'donate' money they would otherwise have to keep in their machines.
Some banks do this too. They round off the pennies to the dollar amount.
Isn't getting $5 for a $5 bet in Roulette called Even Money? I may be confused.
Its a similar principle with those TITO "pennies'... they just nick you for a few pennies and no one feels like trekking to the cashier to get full value on it.
Quote: NathanIsn't getting $5 for a $5 bet in Roulette called Even Money? I may be confused.
If roulette paid true odds, any even money win would pay slightly more than you bet, because you would also lose on 0/00. So if you bet red, you win 18 out of 38 times. Same for black. Even. Odd. High. Low.
All those bets are slightly against you, but they only pay even money for them. That's how they make their money, over time.
They take all your money when you lose. But they pay you slightly less than full odds when you win.
Quote: FleaStiffIt is "voila'' from the French and no I have no idea how to type that accent mark on a computer. It means 'see there' 'demonstrated' 'proven' 'made apparent'.
Casinos always 'nick' bettors in some manner.
Roulette "should' pay 5.26 when you have bet 5.00 but they only give you the 5.00.
Making you feel like a cheapskate and making you walk to the cage to get your pennies is just a way they can get you to 'donate' money they would otherwise have to keep in their machines.
Some banks do this too. They round off the pennies to the dollar amount.
Yes voila
I knew that. Wallah was annoying me as not quite right but my brain froze.
Thx
5.26 house edge does not mean a $5 bet should pay 5.26 instead of $5. It “should” pay $5.55555555....Quote: FleaStiffIt is "voila'' from the French and no I have no idea how to type that accent mark on a computer. It means 'see there' 'demonstrated' 'proven' 'made apparent'.
Casinos always 'nick' bettors in some manner.
Roulette "should' pay 5.26 when you have bet 5.00 but they only give you the 5.00.
Making you feel like a cheapskate and making you walk to the cage to get your pennies is just a way they can get you to 'donate' money they would otherwise have to keep in their machines.
Some banks do this too. They round off the pennies to the dollar amount.
nice tryQuote: FleaStiffCasinos always 'nick' bettors in some manner.
Roulette "should' pay 5.26 when you have bet 5.00 but they only give you the 5.00.
but not correct, unless you are actually answering a different question you did not write.
*****
for the 'evens' at 00 Roulette
a $5 bet should pay $5 5/9 to be a 'fair' payoff
that would be difficult to do except on an electronic game, imo
but $18 could pay $20
or
$9 pays $10 ($90 pays $100, sweet)
or
$4.50 pays $5
just remember q/p
q=20/38
p=18/38
that is the payoff factor for a 0% house edge
no one hurt
except KU! (Kansas)
pu!
Sally
I've no ability at all to deal with your post rationally, so whatever it says I'm sure you are correct.
The point I was trying to make was an example of "the nick" rather than "the humungous chunk". The teensy, weensy amount is how the casino gets its money. So a slot ticket that rounds down any pennies is just yet another example of 'the nick'. You've been gambling, drinking a bit, you are cashing out, etc. its just less likely that you will feel like trekking to the cage and encountering a line than you will just let the pennies go.
Quote: FleaStiffAs always, when it comes to math I sort of just have to accept whatever it was you said.
I've no ability at all to deal with your post rationally, so whatever it says I'm sure you are correct.
The point I was trying to make was an example of "the nick" rather than "the humungous chunk". The teensy, weensy amount is how the casino gets its money. So a slot ticket that rounds down any pennies is just yet another example of 'the nick'. You've been gambling, drinking a bit, you are cashing out, etc. its just less likely that you will feel like trekking to the cage and encountering a line than you will just let the pennies go.
I totally agree with you (even down to just accepting Sallys math cause its beyond pur capabilities)
But I feel this 'nick' is beyond the house edge concept
There is a natural expectation that cashing out will return all your money and not be forced to go to a secondary measure of waiting on a cashier line
In an industry known for its addiction handing a slot ticket for just enough to make a wager thats going to be on so few lines its almost neglible there is any return is like handing a tiny drop of alcohol to the drunk as he is leaving the bar (and charging him for it)
Someone mentioned above they dont have to pay to load silver now into the machine. Well whats to stop them from deciding they dont want to load those pesky dollar bills?
Slot tickets for $99? Get back $95 and a voucher for $4
Yea then you are on line at the cashier. Or more likely throwing it back into the convenient slot which also accepts your voucher
Like anything in life (voter suppression or gifts that have to be redeemed by mail) making things more difficult is just a way to keep other peoples money by erecting false barriers
Playing roulette or any other casino game is the nick you get for willingly making a wager. And the expectation of possible reward
A nick for trying to leave with every penny you have left to your name? Thats NOT a house edge. That has no expectation of further reward. There should not be any money grab there... unless you are a huge corporation who has figured out how to legally steal
One final note (if any of us took those penny vouchers that might be thrown away guess what happens to us)
Before you say, but that means you can play a 1c machine for free, it's only if you win a meter win that you can get this; so they can afford it.
btw UK casinos keep a float of pennies and small change, so it must be a pain for them!
(aisde) For fun, probably halloween, I once played a machine with 13p a spin and got a feature. Although every pay was a multiple of 5p I somehow won 78p!
Quote: darkozI totally agree with you (even down to just accepting Sallys math cause its beyond pur capabilities)
But I feel this 'nick' is beyond the house edge concept
There is a natural expectation that cashing out will return all your money and not be forced to go to a secondary measure of waiting on a cashier line
In an industry known for its addiction handing a slot ticket for just enough to make a wager thats going to be on so few lines its almost neglible there is any return is like handing a tiny drop of alcohol to the drunk as he is leaving the bar (and charging him for it)
Someone mentioned above they dont have to pay to load silver now into the machine. Well whats to stop them from deciding they dont want to load those pesky dollar bills?
Slot tickets for $99? Get back $95 and a voucher for $4
Yea then you are on line at the cashier. Or more likely throwing it back into the convenient slot which also accepts your voucher
Like anything in life (voter suppression or gifts that have to be redeemed by mail) making things more difficult is just a way to keep other peoples money by erecting false barriers
Playing roulette or any other casino game is the nick you get for willingly making a wager. And the expectation of possible reward
A nick for trying to leave with every penny you have left to your name? Thats NOT a house edge. That has no expectation of further reward. There should not be any money grab there... unless you are a huge corporation who has figured out how to legally steal
One final note (if any of us took those penny vouchers that might be thrown away guess what happens to us)
A step further than the “they’ll leave the pennies behind if we don’t have change in machines,” is the equivalent for tables players. They generally have no chip line and you have to wait behind 14 people doing a second mortgage or some sort of complex financial transaction so you can do a 30 second transaction. Hey.....maybe they’ll just leave the chips and we might change chips before they come back if the chip amount divided by wait time is lower than their hourly wage!
Viejas just did a chip changeover August 20th, and only would cash old chips until September 1st. Most places when they do that give around three months. Difficult not to see that timeline as an attempt to steal money.
Also for slots, the places that make the tickets expire in 30 days rather than 90-180 or never, can’t convince me that additional money “stolen” isn’t a factor in that sort of timeline.
I thought that, in most jurisdictions anyway, that abandoned TITO money goes to the state.
Quote: DJTeddyBearWait a sec...
I thought that, in most jurisdictions anyway, that abandoned TITO money goes to the state.
They are surely honoring that....lol
Especially at Zcore's casino (-;
I have at least 5 local casinos where the TITO expires in 24 hours. At least two of the aforementioned casinos also have ticket redemption kiosks that print out vouchers for the change.Quote: mcallister3200Also for slots, the places that make the tickets expire in 30 days rather than 90-180 or never, can’t convince me that additional money “stolen” isn’t a factor in that sort of timeline.
Are you sure they're not a year and a day, not just a day? I've been able to cash expired tickets, think managers can approve them in a small window between the expiration date and the state possessing it.Quote: PuckerbuttI have at least 5 local casinos where the TITO expires in 24 hours. At least two of the aforementioned casinos also have ticket redemption kiosks that print out vouchers for the change.
The best thing a casino could do is that if you put in a ticket for $135.70 it gives you $135 cash and a 70-cent ticket. But if you put in a ticket for 70-cents (or any amount under $1) it gives you coins. Now we have the option of getting only in bills every time we play (no coins), or getting paid the full amount with coins, without having to go to the cashier.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyFoxwoods does this.
I noticed that the one time I went there. I never went back, JUST FOR THAT REASON.
Quote: AxelWolfHas anyone else noticed some of the TITO machines now have 2 options one of which is a donation to charity? I wonder what would happen if you accidentally hit the donate button for a large amount and wanted it back?
I've only seen this at WinStar in OK, and there, it is limited to just the coin.
Quote: AxelWolfHas anyone else noticed some of the TITO machines now have 2 options one of which is a donation to charity? I wonder what would happen if you accidentally hit the donate button for a large amount and wanted it back?
Guess who gets the tax deduction, if YOU decide to donate the money with this option. The casinos of course.
Quote: SM777Hard Rock Hollywood Florida does this.
Seminole Hard Rock in Tampa has some machines by a cashier cage which also give the change. But all the other machines on the floor, only print out the tito voucher for whatever cents is left. Of course, you've already walked to a cashier cage so you can get full redemption anyway so there's no real advantage except not dealing with a human I guess.
The only reason to take the trouble to get the change is the principle of the idea, not the added value. They are going to keep the small amounts on the basis that many people won't take the trouble to get their change. It's so petty, it's annoying, so I go out of my way to collect that change anyway.
Players could use the vouchers as tips.Quote: rxwineSeminole Hard Rock in Tampa has some machines by a cashier cage which also give the change. But all the other machines on the floor, only print out the tito voucher for whatever cents is left. Of course, you've already walked to a cashier cage so you can get full redemption anyway so there's no real advantage except not dealing with a human I guess.
The only reason to take the trouble to get the change is the principle of the idea, not the added value. They are going to keep the small amounts on the basis that many people won't take the trouble to get their change. It's so petty, it's annoying, so I go out of my way to collect that change anyway.
Quote: DJTeddyBearWait a sec...
I thought that, in most jurisdictions anyway, that abandoned TITO money goes to the state.
As axel said, 75% in NV. I think Missouri still forbids TITOs to expire, but I haven't paid attention lately.
Quote: wrxrobAnother hustle I'm noticing. Some casinos have the old coin counter machines where you dump in the buckets to get cash back. Kicker is, they now keep 10% of the amount, similar to coinstar! It wasn't that many years ago that we had coin droppers in the slots, so naturally this was free at the time. Regardless, I'm not bringing my change bin to the casinos.
MGM Grand does this now. But if you bring quarters and point out you were playing Sigma Derby, they waive the fee. But how many clueless people don't ask this?
Quote: AxelWolfI dont really know or care, I just know it' a complete F'ING scam that steals Millions from players.
It's not stealing if you willingly walk into a place, hand them your money, and let them keep it.
Here is a recent souvenir -Quote: onenickelmiracleAre you sure they're not a year and a day, not just a day? I've been able to cash expired tickets, think managers can approve them in a small window between the expiration date and the state possessing it.
I have heard of people driving home and finding a somewhat substantial TITO and calling the casino to make arrangements for redemption a day or two after expiration. But at what amount would you bother with calling in and making those arrangements - taking a special unplanned trip to the casino and back home (let's say 40 miles round trip) - and waiting around the casino for a manager to attend to you. $10? $20? $50? $100? A longer expiration would alleviate many of those considerations.
Which brings us to your last point - state possession. If the state takes possession of expired TITO monies, then why would some casinos take the risk of ticking off some of their customer base with an absurdly short redemption period? Wouldn't they do the exact opposite and make their redemption period as long as possible to take advantage of the float?
Quote: rsactuaryI've only seen this at WinStar in OK, and there, it is limited to just the coin.
You have the option to donate at all Chickasaw casino locations. The charities listed on their redemption kiosks are -
Military Warriors Support Foundation
Chickasaw Inkana Foundation
Chickasaw Foundation
Regional Food Bank of Oklahoma
As you can see - the Chickasaw have a vested interest.
So if people are willing to hand their money to scammers then that makes it okay to scam?Quote: TigerWuIt's not stealing if you willingly walk into a place, hand them your money, and let them keep it.
Quote: AxelWolfSo if people are willing to hand their money to scammers then that makes it okay to scam?
No, because that would still be fraud, and ultimately illegal, depending on what the scam is.
Casinos do not rely on fraudulent premises to operate, unlike scammers.
I'd just assume either the state or casino is desperate, willing to take a shot just to survive. NJ used to never expire, but they changed things so the companies could declare the money as profit. They were desperate at the time, back after the housing crisis. Borgata owes my sister $12 and I'll never forget it. It was a year expiration at the time, we just haven't been back in 3 years.Quote: PuckerbuttHere is a recent souvenir -
I have heard of people driving home and finding a somewhat substantial TITO and calling the casino to make arrangements for redemption a day or two after expiration. But at what amount would you bother with calling in and making those arrangements - taking a special unplanned trip to the casino and back home (let's say 40 miles round trip) - and waiting around the casino for a manager to attend to you. $10? $20? $50? $100? A longer expiration would alleviate many of those considerations.
Which brings us to your last point - state possession. If the state takes possession of expired TITO monies, then why would some casinos take the risk of ticking off some of their customer base with an absurdly short redemption period? Wouldn't they do the exact opposite and make their redemption period as long as possible to take advantage of the float?
So as long as it's a legal scam its ok.Quote: TigerWuNo, because that would still be fraud, and ultimately illegal, depending on what the scam is.
Casinos do not rely on fraudulent premises to operate, unlike scammers.
How do other jurisdictions do it?Quote: DRichFor anyone that understands accounting, tickets must expire at some point.
I would accept one year.
Someone posted an expiration of one day. Does anyone here think that's not a "scam"?
If tickets expired after 99 years, that money has to be protected for redemption. He says they must expire, that is obviously false and misleading, I already mentioned how NJ had tickets never expiring. They changed the law so the money could be taken in as a profit and removed as a liability. It is true a ticket must expire for the money to change hands, but the money must not change hands, so he is wrong.Quote: AxelWolfHow do other jurisdictions do it?
I would accept one year.
Someone posted an expiration of one day. Does anyone here think that's not a "scam"?
Quote: DRichFor anyone that understands accounting, tickets must expire at some point.
So pennsylvania casinos dont do accounting?
Their vouchers dont expire
Edit: the ones I have been too before someone names a casino in west bubbaclump pennsylvania as an example that doesn't
If tickets expired after 99 years, that money has to be protected for redemption. He says they must expire, that is obviously false and misleading, I already mentioned how NJ had tickets never expiring. They changed the law so the money could be taken in as a profit and removed as a liability. It is true a ticket must expire for the money to change hands, but the money must not change hands, so he is wrong.Quote: AxelWolfHow do other jurisdictions do it?
I would accept one year.
Someone posted an expiration of one day. Does anyone here think that's not a "scam"?
Quote: onenickelmiracleIf tickets expired after 99 years, that money has to be protected for redemption. He says they must expire, that is obviously false and misleading, I already mentioned how NJ had tickets never expiring. They changed the law so the money could be taken in as a profit and removed as a liability. It is true a ticket must expire for the money to change hands, but the money must not change hands, so he is wrong.
Please explain to me how NJ accounts for liability while staying compliant with GAAP? Or do they? My guess is they don't.
Quote: AxelWolfHow do other jurisdictions do it?
I would accept one year.
Someone posted an expiration of one day. Does anyone here think that's not a "scam"?
One year seems reasonable to me but my point is that we just need some number otherwise the patron gets screwed. If the patron believes the tickets are good forever, business eventually fail and the customer gets screwed. If the customer know the expiration date they can only screw themselves.
my opinion... a day is way too short. A year is long enough. A month is fine.
