Skill based games fail
Ceasar's removes all 21 skill based games
If only there was a $100 minimum pinball machine. lol.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Skill based games failed their first test and it was a big fail. I still think skill based games will evolve into actual video game play, but the current version of it died a quick death.
Ceasar's removes all 21 skill based games
If only there was a $100 minimum pinball machine. lol.
ZCore13
I am thinking something akin to Mario kart that would work. Its fun, casual gamers love it. You can get very good. Automatic handicap system where you get help if behind and get attacked and little help if ahead. Its a combination of luck, skill and fun.
A shooter??? Yawn. Pinball, yawn.
That probably would have worked. Obviously, they didn't have to set them at a $100 min.Quote: Zcore13
If only there was a $100 minimum pinball machine. lol.
It may just come down to the simple fact that Video gamers want to play video games as video games period. And IF they want to gamble they want to gamble they want to gamble on traditional slots and casino games.
Quote: BTLWIAre the video game players even in the casinos?
Not many, but there's no video games for them yet. That will be the question. Will they show up when the can play a Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto type game for money...
ZCore13
That said, people play 6-5 BJ and 000 roulette, aka "Sands roulette". What do I know. Really though, I think the average joe is smart enough to believe that the game is rigged. A clever game could entrap a few people, but not enough.
Edit: I forgot to add that I think the kind of person they're trying to bring in with these skill slots are the types that want to win vs your average patron who wants to have fun and maybe win. The fact that you can't beat these machines (EV-wise) under any circumstance will scare too many off.
Has anyone heard how the Gamblit games are doing here in Vegas? All I can say is when I saw the ones at the MGM nobody was playing them.
Quote: gamerfreakGameCo installations failed because the games were garbage. There's nothing fundamentally flawed with skilled gaming.
This. The games were based on the principle "play a game with a friend that you could just as well play for free on your phones, but lose a huge amount of money in the process"
Gambling must involve a good chance to walk away winner, which was impossible with these machines for all the players combined. So two friends put in twenty bucks each, and after half an hour they might walk away with 25 an 0 dollars respectively. No way for them to not totally feel ripped off.
Well, yes. =) The best gamers have AP techniques. They're able to analyze any game to find the holes/edges/etc to be able to capitalize on them. The top gamers in the world definitely have an "AP" mentality of "what can I do differently than everyone else to get an edge."Quote: BTLWIAre the video game players even in the casinos?
ahhh.. the 3 caesars in AC only.Quote: Zcore13Skill based games failed their first test and it was a big fail. I still think skill based games will evolve into actual video game play, but the current version of it died a quick death.
Ceasar's removes all 21 skill based games
If only there was a $100 minimum pinball machine. lol.
ZCore13
and which 21 skill based games?
danger arena and space invaders?
Quote: WizardThanks.
Has anyone heard how the Gamblit games are doing here in Vegas? All I can say is when I saw the ones at the MGM nobody was playing them.
Very little play on Princess Cruise ship the week I was on it. Don't buy the IPO Wiz based on their current offerings, trust me on this one 😜.
Quote: gamerfreakGameCo installations failed because the games were garbage. There's nothing fundamentally flawed with skilled gaming.
This was a huge factor. The game was like it was out of the 80s arcade... And most 80s games were better made!
They also believe everything gaffed and they are cursed. Eventually, they go insane, lose everything and die the way of bug bites.Quote: RomesWell, yes. =) The best gamers have AP techniques. They're able to analyze any game to find the holes/edges/etc to be able to capitalize on them. The top gamers in the world definitely have an "AP" mentality of "what can I do differently than everyone else to get an edge."
Quote: ParadigmDon't buy the IPO Wiz based on their current offerings, trust me on this one 😜.
I'll buy into NTEK instead.
Are all those requirements necessary? I think not.
Here's my ideas:
1 - Get rid of the occasional payoffs that have nothing to do with the skill. Shitty players won't play, even if there is the promise of the occasional random payoff. That's what regular slots are for.
2 - Match the game to the player's skill. If a player consistently achieves a certain level of play, they must start at the next level.
3 - Make it so the game won't play unless you use a slot club card because the player's skill level is saved in the slot club system. (Or in the manufacturer's own system, but using the slot card as ID.)
If a card counter can be backed off from Blackjack, why can't a skilled video player be backed off from the game of skill? Or at least be required to play a harder game?
And, by requiring them to start at the next level, you're making the game more fun & challenging for the player - which is what the player wants anyway.
Take any game that has multiple levels, where about 50% of players die in or before level 3.
Make the cost to play 3 units, with 1 unit returned for each level completed. So it's profitable after completing level 4. Play profitably often enough and the game starts at level 2, but now it's profitable after completing level 5. Etc.
Also, if the game has variable bet unit sizes, use an algorithm to evaluate the betting pattern. I.E. If a player is betting small units when learning the game, then bumps the bet when they get proficient at it, advance the starting levels faster. And record the bet algorithm score in the slot club computer too.
Thoughts?
So you're going to introduce a skill game, then promptly kick out anyone with actual skill that plays it? This flies over in BJ because people don't understand the math and/or what you're actually doing (just using your brain). This would bring the casinos absurdity to a might brighter light if they started kicking out gamers for "being too good."Quote: DJTeddyBear...If a card counter can be backed off from Blackjack, why can't a skilled video player be backed off from the game of skill?...
Thoughts?
You took my quote out of context. Read the entire paragraph.
Of course you don't want to back off the player, but why can't you make it more challenging to match the skill level?Quote: DJTeddyBearIf a card counter can be backed off from Blackjack, why can't a skilled video player be backed off from the game of skill? Or at least be required to play a harder game?
Quote: WizardThanks.
Has anyone heard how the Gamblit games are doing here in Vegas? All I can say is when I saw the ones at the MGM nobody was playing them.
I was in Vegas last week and actually went looking for these games. I found three at Caesar's and two at The Linq. At Caesar's, they actually had a game attendant in the "pit" of the games to answer any questions and explain the game, while at the Linq, they were no attendants.
As for location, Caesar's had them in a space just off the table games and mixed on either side by some slots, while the Linq had them along the walkway at the bar area near their South Strip entrance. At the Linq, other than the time me and a couple of friends played, I never saw anyone else playing. While at Caesar's, there seem to be a stream of players who would play, but mainly with buddies and only for a short time, out of curiosity most likely.
Of the two versions, i feel that the poker variety has the best chance to succeed as there is a better chance for the weaker player to improve their hand as opposed to the "blackjack" target score type. I felt that playing against inferior opponents was considerably easier on the target score version than it would have been on the poker hand style as on that one, the best hand could still be made after the pat hand is set.
The attendant at Caesar's said the games have been played regularly, but I can see the attendant drawing people in as part of that result. At a time of about 2 minutes or less per game, I feel that the rake is too much to overcome if the field is full of equal strength players. I played roughly 40 games between the two casinos and only twice did the payout exceed the entry and both times it was the smallest one over the take. Most of the time, the $2 entry table ($8 total - 4 players) paid either $7.20 or $5.60? I think.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIf a card counter can be backed off from Blackjack, why can't a skilled video player be backed off from the game of skill? Or at least be required to play a harder game?
Thoughts?
Well, I think how such a thing would work is the game would be beatable only with the assistance of a computer.
But the catch is, you can't bring out your device or you get thrown out.
Thus the casino can advertise skill all day. (think I've seen that before)
Thus the cat and mouse play begins.
Foxwoods, ‘skill-based’ gaming target millennial crowd
They are stationed outside the Shrine nightclub, a magnet for the millennial crowd. (Gronk & Co. ran up a $102K tab there one night last month.) I'll be there today and take a look. I hope to post later today, but ya never know...
Quote: DJTeddyBearI think the problem with skill games is that the game manufacturer and casino are too focused on including the skill element, but maintaining a predictable house edge where the casino rarely loses, it's done in a manner where all players start on the same "level" playing field, and where even shitty players get thrown a bone occasionally.
Are all those requirements necessary? I think not.
Here's my ideas:
1 - Get rid of the occasional payoffs that have nothing to do with the skill. Shitty players won't play, even if there is the promise of the occasional random payoff. That's what regular slots are for.
2 - Match the game to the player's skill. If a player consistently achieves a certain level of play, they must start at the next level.
3 - Make it so the game won't play unless you use a slot club card because the player's skill level is saved in the slot club system. (Or in the manufacturer's own system, but using the slot card as ID.)
If a card counter can be backed off from Blackjack, why can't a skilled video player be backed off from the game of skill? Or at least be required to play a harder game?
And, by requiring them to start at the next level, you're making the game more fun & challenging for the player - which is what the player wants anyway.
Take any game that has multiple levels, where about 50% of players die in or before level 3.
Make the cost to play 3 units, with 1 unit returned for each level completed. So it's profitable after completing level 4. Play profitably often enough and the game starts at level 2, but now it's profitable after completing level 5. Etc.
Also, if the game has variable bet unit sizes, use an algorithm to evaluate the betting pattern. I.E. If a player is betting small units when learning the game, then bumps the bet when they get proficient at it, advance the starting levels faster. And record the bet algorithm score in the slot club computer too.
Thoughts?
Per number 3 terrible idea
Skillful player convinces all his friends n family to get him player cards which he cycles through so his skill level isnt noticed and he cleans up
Skilled player is kept from winning when he is playing impaired (drunk) and casino is unfairly gauging his current skill
Old ladies and newbies cant figure out why machine wont work because someone else accidentally left their card in machine. They just assume game is too difficult anyway and dont play
Is this made by gameco?
I don't think these skill based games will ever gain popularity unless they come up with a better mechanism to create variance. Randomly making the game easy or impossible feels bad. It doesn't give the player the impression that they'll be rewarded for practicing and improving their skill. The game needs to feel beatable while still maintaining a house edge.
Take the two most popular skill games as an example, Blackjack and Video Poker. Any player can become skilled at thise games and reduce the house edge. But the difference is, it's possible to play any BJ or VP hand 100% perfect, and that's NOT the case with games like danger arena, where once the computer decides you can't win, no amount of skill will improve your odds.
Quote: DRichWhen video game players are willing to lose an average of $40 an hour the games will succeed. That's pretty close to what current slot machines make for the casino.
Is this including down-time (I assume it'd have to), or is it only time when it's being actively played?
Quote: RSIs this including down-time (I assume it'd have to), or is it only time when it's being actively played?
Yes, depending on the property I usually estimate 6 hours of play. Some get a lot more and some get a lot less. Generally the most utilized are the flashy themed games that also have the highest hold %.
This might be like attempting to get normal people to smoke meth by putting it out in different flavors, hoping to appeal to "foodies." They gonna be like, "OK, but I don't smoke meth and have no desire to start."
Everytime I play a slot, which I am not doing for fun, it freshly blows my mind that anybody does do this for fun. While the games can be cool, with fun pictures and all that, you just get savagely raped time and time again.
However, I wonder if there are many people who might like playing machines but are turned off by being raped so severely. Maybe the skill games are a way to segregate the market between total degenerates and people who are willing to lose, say, $10/hr for the right level of entertainment.
I think the degenerates probably prefer a more passive experience anyway, and will be drawn to the same old rape machines. But, the person who puts $100 in a slot and sees it vanish in 4 minutes and never goes near one again, might be willing to be a more standard entertainment cost, like going to a movie.
That seems to be the general pattern. Slots, totally passive, rape. VP, more participatory and some kind of skill, sexual assault.
On table games as well. You start with the wheel spin thing, roulette, carnie games (as usually played) etc. Highest hold. BJ, craps, lower. Poker, Sports, most people are just paying about what it costs to go to the movies and a few are winners.
The TS actually had some people playing on it, but they mostly seemed to not know exactly what they were doing and were consistently operating sub-optimally.
I spent most of my actual time on (equivalents of) Boggle, Triple Town, and Candy Crush, and the only one with a distinct skill component to it was Boggle. The others were mired in mystery and indecipherable. There's two to six different wins possible, and you achieve all six by making words with a combined length of 27 letters. (The dictionary wasn't that expansive, though I suppose it's sufficient for people who don't regularly play games of the type.) The problem is, after ten games or so with all six possible wins, not a single one turned a net positive. Not a good feeling.
The other major problem is that it needs considerably better documentation, even for the tangentials. I noticed I kept getting messages about GBits. What the hell are GBits? In the end, I only figured it out by running a site search on Google which has one mention of it on their page ("skill currency"... thanks?) and another to a Twitter page that's equally uninformative.
They did do a good job making the games recognizable, for anybody who's familiar with their more popular equivalents, and some of them are even actual games (Catapult King, though I'm unfamiliar with that one, personally), which makes it easy for people to get straight into it.
But really-- I feel that the killer here is the tremendous disconnect between the "skill" and the "payout". I don't care if you jack up my difficulty level to the point I have to start churning out myrrh, gypsy, syzygy, or tryst, but if I can cap it out, I want to at least break even.
The game was called "Texas Tea"... and it sucked. I watched two player's put a total of $300 through, and not get to the skill bonus one time. It makes me think the machine is monitoring it's hold and will only activate the skill bonus after locking up a certain profit.
Quote: AyecarumbaSaw a "Skill" sign hanging over a bank of slots in the Golden Nugget. It turns out they were pinball games. Note that they were NOT pinball machines. Rather they were penny slots with a skill based payout possible on a video pinball bonus game that is activated by catching a certain number of bonus symbols. The flippers are activated by pressing large discs on the top of the console.
The game was called "Texas Tea"... and it sucked. I watched two player's put a total of $300 through, and not get to the skill bonus one time. It makes me think the machine is monitoring it's hold and will only activate the skill bonus after locking up a certain profit.
I tried that one in Harrah's Laughlin; I ended up pulling about 150$ off the pinball bonus after dropping 200$ into it. The ball moves ludicrously fast in the third tier. Second tier is already faster than you'll see in home pinball software. If you'd rather not do that, you can just take free spins instead.
Quote: AyecarumbaSaw a "Skill" sign hanging over a bank of slots in the Golden Nugget. It turns out they were pinball games. Note that they were NOT pinball machines. Rather they were penny slots with a skill based payout possible on a video pinball bonus game that is activated by catching a certain number of bonus symbols. The flippers are activated by pressing large discs on the top of the console.
The game was called "Texas Tea"... and it sucked. I watched two player's put a total of $300 through, and not get to the skill bonus one time. It makes me think the machine is monitoring it's hold and will only activate the skill bonus after locking up a certain profit.
I guess you missed my review of it back in august
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/29420-pinball-skill-slots-review/
...about don’t-like is clear., But what about games You like ? Where of skill games You liked ?!?
Quote: darkozI guess you missed my review of it back in august
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/29420-pinball-skill-slots-review/
Sorry, yes I missed your great write up. Based on what I saw at the GN in Vegas, nothing has changed.
I don’t think they should be able to call it a “Penny” slot when the minimum to play is 60 cents.
I think that still goes along with my point... Gamer's, such as "bro's" would be like "what? Why do I have to play on hard and he's playing on easy if we're playing for money???" Even the "simple public" would realize that takes the skill out of it, where as in BJ every dimwit that thinks 3rd base should "save the bust card" already thinks they know how to play the game. Essentially, the casino would have to intervene to tell the players they're too good, or that they suck now, whereas they could know they sucked before but the players still thought they were good.Quote: DJTeddyBearRomes -
You took my quote out of context. Read the entire paragraph.Of course you don't want to back off the player, but why can't you make it more challenging to match the skill level?Quote: DJTeddyBearIf a card counter can be backed off from Blackjack, why can't a skilled video player be backed off from the game of skill? Or at least be required to play a harder game?
(1) Some of the levels must be hard enough that even the best players only succeed 5-10% of the time. Which means that the bigger prizes must be worth the time. Perhaps restarts at higher levels for more money.
(2) Casinos must make enough money, so the daily drop (RPU) is worthwhile. If there is very little negative variance for the skilled player, the casino can only make money off unskilled players.
(3) The ratio of casino profit to skilled player profit should be adjusted to healthy levels.
(4) With some of the successful bonus games, there develops groups of conservative people (who look for very juicy machines), aggressive people (kind of good machines), wannabes (who play some +EV and some -EV machines), etc... I've seen bonus games with very little action, except in casinos where they developed a multi-level cult following.
If machines don't pay out enough for skilled players, they will not play.
If the casino keeps too little, the slot machines will not stay.
If the machine doesn't become popular, the slots will not stay.
Some tips for learning skill gamesQuote: Mikey75They have added a couple of skill games at Gold Strike in Tunica. There where huge signs on both sides of them stating skill based slots. It was the pinball bonus. I didn't see anyone playing them the entire time I was there.
(A) Watch skilled players - Established APs may not like this...but if they are rushing to play other high-value games, they may have no choice.
Cheapest way to do 50% of the learning.
(B) Play games where "Level 1" & "Level 2" bonuses are fairly high (What is fairly high takes experience or gossip...). When you complete Level 1, are struggling to complete Level 2, and never finish Level 3...you get some money back. If the numbers are high enough, just completing Level 1 might be profitable. - Established APs might like this, because the Level 2 & Level 3 bonuses will rise as you are practicing (even if you take out Level 1 repeatedly).
(C) It helps when watching skilled players, to have already tried the games. Some classic pinball technique applies.
(1) Some pinball shots have a higher probability of sending the ball straight down the center, so some skilled players avoid those shots.
(2) Watch pinball flipper technique. When to hold one flipper up...or both flippers up.
Have fun!
Hopefully we will get more skill-based games in the future.
Quote: mamatSome tips for learning skill games
(A) Watch skilled players - Established APs may not like this...but if they are rushing to play other high-value games, they may have no choice.
Cheapest way to do 50% of the learning.
(B) Play games where "Level 1" & "Level 2" bonuses are fairly high (What is fairly high takes experience or gossip...). When you complete Level 1, are struggling to complete Level 2, and never finish Level 3...you get some money back. If the numbers are high enough, just completing Level 1 might be profitable. - Established APs might like this, because the Level 2 & Level 3 bonuses will rise as you are practicing (even if you take out Level 1 repeatedly).
(C) It helps when watching skilled players, to have already tried the games. Some classic pinball technique applies.
(1) Some pinball shots have a higher probability of sending the ball straight down the center, so some skilled players avoid those shots.
(2) Watch pinball flipper technique. When to hold one flipper up...or both flippers up.
Have fun!
Hopefully we will get more skill-based games in the future.
None of this applies to casino games of skill
Really????Quote: darkozNone of this applies to casino games of skill
Seems like more people are playing them. Never poker players. Still not many customers but they do get a bit of action.
